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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • Though I'm currently not in the market, if I were buying a midsize sedan, I'd have the Accord and Altima at the top of my list. They're both handsome vehicles, and I think their interiors are by far the best in the class. The only concern I have is that I hear they've both lost a bit of their sportiness, but if they've made up for that with increased ride comfort, that'd be fine with me.

    For now, I'm pretty happy with my 2007 4cyl EX Accord. It has given me 20,000 trouble free miles over the past two years and still feels incredibly solid.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    backy said:
    "If you read that report, you should have noticed that the only Sonatas and Optimas included in the EPA estimates reset are the hybrids... not the regular ICE cars."

    GST responds with:
    If you had read this report you would find that your report and this one vary wildly with affected cars.
    See link below, and note the following additional cars involved which are NOT hybrids.
    Hyundai's Elantra, Accent, Azera, Genesis, Tucson, Veloster and Santa Fe.
    Kia's Sorrento, Rio, Soul, Sportage

    http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/epa-audit-finds-inflated-gas-mileage-hyundai-ki- a-083359433.html

    "The errors involve 13 models from the 2011 through 2013 model years, including seven Hyundais and six Kias. Window stickers will have to be changed on some versions of the following models: Hyundai's Elantra, Sonata Hybrid, Accent, Azera, Genesis, Tucson, Veloster and Santa Fe. Kia models affected include the Sorrento, Rio, Soul, Sportage and Optima Hybrid."
  • I know these have been posted before, but again here are links to the complete official lists from both Hyundai and Kia...

    https://hyundaimpginfo.com/overview/affected-models

    https://kiampginfo.com/overview/affected-models
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,896
    A reporter is looking for a recent car buyer whose car's sunroof/moonroof feature was a big factor in their purchase decision. Please send your daytime contact info to smar@edmunds.com no later than Monday, November 5, 2012 at 5 p.m. Pacific.

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  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I agree with some of the points you make here.

    Crash tests are also manipulated in much the same way. Actually, the test itself is not necessarily manipulated, but the structure/design of the car is built in anticipation of said crashes.

    If you notice the link I posted above to backy, it is interesting to note that Hyundia and Kia are taking a very responsible stance for their errors and are issuing prepaid debit cards to original owners. They are calculated to represent the difference mpg claims in 15k miles per year + an additional 15% for life of ownership of that car to original owner.

    Even though it still could be a very well handled damage-control maneuver, regardless of motive of the original (potential) misrepresentation, it is being handled better than many other certain brands I can think of.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    But I think you missed backy's point: while there were a number of ICE Kias and Hyundais that over-estimated mpg, ICE Sonatas and Optimas were not among them.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    edited November 2012
    Thanks for the reminder that this is a discussion about MID-SIZED SEDANS... not compacts, subcompacts, near-luxury cars, sporty cars, SUVs etc.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    It's entirely possible that the car can get silly numbers on the EPA tests. Auto manufacturers have long known what the test is and often put in extra tall gears and alter the shift points so that the car is basically idling as much of the time as possible while it is on the dyno at those specific speeds. (ie - they'll make it shift into overdrive at 1-2mph lower than the city test speeds as an example)

    They don't have to try that hard. I believe each manufacturer performs their own tests and shares that info with the EPA (fox guarding hen house). I think the EPA only performs the odd audit.
  • mtnman1mtnman1 Westerville, OhioPosts: 383
    edited November 2012
    Maybe they should make car buyers reimburse Manufacturers if they get better mileage. Had a 2003 Sonota V6 which I gave to my daughter (nearing 100,000 miles) and I got 30mpg on the highway. My Current Ford Fusion SEL V6 is rated at 19/26 and I always get close to 30mpg Hwy and around 18 or 19 city. My Wife's Highlander Limited 4WD V6 is rated 17/22 and we get close to the city mpg, but we get 23.5mpg on the highway. Traded a 2011 Kia Sorento EX FWD V6 for the Highlander and usually got 25mpg Hwy, but had trouble getting over 16 city.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,896
    Only if the consumer falsifies the claim, and causes the manufacturer to spend money AFTER the transaction that was not anticipated, as a result of the consumer's false claim.

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  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,009
    Better buy your new Kizashi quick. American Suzuki just went bankrupt and will cease operations after current inventory runs out.

    http://www.autoblog.com/2012/11/05/american-suzuki-motors-files-chapter-11-will-- no-longer-sell-car/
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,701
    The EPA tests 10-15 percent of new cars every year. That's not the 'odd audit'.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    edited November 2012
    I bet those Kizashis can be had now for a heckofadeal. :) :cry:

    I wonder how long it will be before Mitsubishi follows suit... most of their models have been retired, including the Galant, which at one time was considered one of the top cars in its class.
  • CR states Ford quality is much better now, they slip in some categories because of the my ford touch system has issues. that brings they're reliability down. Also what the MT or C/D mags mentioned. This isn't a deal-breaker, for me at least. Drive is way better than 2013 Accord.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    Ok :)

    That seems like an odd audit to me.

    What my original post was to convey was MOST of the testing (85% - 90%) is performed by the manufacturers, not the EPA.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    You could see this coming from a mile away.

    Locally...a couple years ago we had a new Suzuki dealership built close to our house. Within a year they went out of business and the facility has been on the market ever since.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,701
    Yes - most of the testing is done by the mfrs but they are very good at it and they understand that if they're caught fudging the consequences are dire both in terms of their corporate career and PR and financially for the company. The 10% - 15% audit amounts to a "surprise inspection" that keeps most of the mfrs on their toes due to the severe consequences of being caught. Not sure how these guys got away with it for so long - maybe they just got lucky.

    I believe only 2 vehicles had been flagged with invalid results in the last 10-12 years and I believe those were relatively minor.

    It's easy to cheat but not easy to do it for very long without being caught.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    Yes - most of the testing is done by the mfrs but they are very good at it ...

    Well, MOST of them are good at it. Some have some problems there. :sick:
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,701
    Or maybe they were very very good at it to get away with it for 2+ years......
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    Either they messed up big-time and didn't realize their mistake until the EPA found it, or they counted on luck to save them from a customer sat disaster, and worse.

    Either way, not very "good".
  • sdcal2sdcal2 Posts: 12
    Why is no one talking about the fact that Ford is not shipping any more fusions? All built vehicles are being shipped to Flat Rock for a "Quality Issue". Not one word on any blog
    What's up
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,701
    All cars are not affected - only some. And there isn't much information as to what actually happened. It was either a line problem or a part problem that appears to have been fixed already. There was no stop sale or recall on vehicles already produced. I think they're shipping them to Flat Rock for inspection and repair so they don't slow down the plant. Ford is probably using an abundance of caution with the Fusion launch after the issues they had with the Focus and Escape launches. Nothing to worry too much about yet.
  • sdcal2sdcal2 Posts: 12
    There are NO more Fusions being shipped to dealers period. Many dealers that have units have removed them from showroom floor. My unit was ordered in August and built in October and is still sitting in Mexico. Per Ford now expect delivery before end of December. All units will be shipped to Flat Rock for inspection and then shipped out to dealers. I will bet there will be a recall on units already sold soon

    I would say they have plenty to worry about
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,701
    Source? That doesn't match what I've been reading.
  • I have the same question for sdcal2... what is your source that Ford stopped shipping Fusions? According to my local dealers' websites, they are getting more almost every day. Unfortunately they are almost all the 2.5 and 1.6. I am waiting to test drive the 2.0 and the hybrid.
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 791
    "Locally...a couple years ago we had a new Suzuki dealership built close to our house. Within a year they went out of business and the facility has been on the market ever since."

    Built??? That isn't a word I've ever associated with a Suzuki dealership. All of the ones that I've ever seen (in GA, AL and TN), were office trailers parked on an existing parking lot (old, cracked asphalt usually) or even on gravel lot! Nothing says class like buying a car out of a trailer on an unpaved lot!

    With such high-end dealer facilities, selling far more rebadged Daewoos than vehicles they engineered and built AND spending less on marketing than the local Tasty Freeze....what went wrong with such a solid business plan???
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 791
    "I bet those Kizashis can be had now for a heckofadeal. :) :cry:

    I wonder how long it will be before Mitsubishi follows suit... most of their models have been retired, including the Galant, which at one time was considered one of the top cars in its class."


    I've been wondering the same thing about the Kizashis! The Kizashi is a damn good car even after several years on the market. It is easily the best car that Suzuki has ever made, but sales have never hit 7,000 in any year since it was introduced. It's a shame.

    I wonder just how low prices will go during the sell-off? My bet is that the majority of the remaining inventory will be dumped into rental fleets. Enterprise and several smaller rental car companies bought Saturns and Pontiacs by the thousands when they were going out of business.

    There are still some former Saab dealers trying to get rid of new 2011 models. Some can be had for as much as 50% off sticker (especially the 9-5), but they don't have a warranty and aren't considered new. Most banks won't loan on them and insurance rates for Physical Damage (Comprehensive & Collision, which pay to repair the car) have increased significantly!

    I fear the same will happen with the insurance rates for Suzukis, especially the lowest volume models....well, that's all of them actually.

    I feel so sorry for anyone who has bought a new Suzuki in the last year or two and financed it for 60 or 72 months! Imagine how bad it would suck to owe $20k on a car only worth $12k! If they were smart enough to get GAP coverage, it wouldn't surprise me to see an increase in "total loss" single car crashes! I can hear it now, "That brick on the accelerator was sitting in the seat before the crash, it must have fell down there during the impact....yeah, that's it..."
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,297
    In the November C/D comparo the 2013 Ford Fusion 1.6 Eco-Boost check engine light was activated a few times during testing. Not good. C/D also noted that the engine and tranny had to work hard due to peaky power delivery (smaller displacement).
    There are three engine choices for us here in the USA:
    1.6 EcoBoost (turbo) (made in UK)
    2.5 inline 4 (non-turbo) (made in Mexico)
    2.0 EcoBoost ( turbo) (made in Spain)

    I believe the check engine issues re just early production birthing hiccups. In other words; I would wait for a 2014 model that has all the bugs worked out. Make mine a 2.0 EcoBoost Titanium. Beautiful car inside and out.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    All of the ones that I've ever seen (in GA, AL and TN), were office trailers parked on an existing parking lot

    To be honest...this was the first Suzuki dealer I seen...or ever noticed. It isn't huge, but at the time I thought it must be Suzuki trying to make a push.

    I suppose the push turned into a final gasp pretty quickly...
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