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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,327
    edited December 2012
    Have you guys noticed that no one is really talking about the Camry much? As in "I want one"?

    Toyota blew it on the interior. How did the ES/GS 350 get so cool looking and the Camry so lame? The dash/interiors of the Lexus models look high grade, user friendly, and modern...while the Camry gets aluminum painted plastic all over. Barely acceptable.

    and....did you guys know that almost every vehicle Toyota makes (except trucks) is riding on some form of Camry platform? Like 6 vehicles.

    Oh, it is supposed to be the end of the world tomorrow. Should we send a Camry as an offering to that cool Aztec temple? I think Toyota can spare one. ;)

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,327
    I swear this is my last post today. Going a little nuts bottled up in my cube.

    I went to a local Ford dealer about a week ago and drove through their lot. They had 3 Fusions, all 1.6 turbos. They were hidden all the way at the back of their massive new cars lot.

    I mean, there were tons of Focus, Escapes and other vehicles. So, I can only guess as to the scope of Ford's issues or plan is for the Fusion. I still see virtually zero of them around my area; and I drive around a lot. :confuse:

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,741
    The 1.6L Fusions were probably waiting for the new software to fix the cooling issue - that's why they were in the back.

    They are shipping a lot of Fusions finally but they're also selling them just as fast as they get them.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    The Sonata and Optima share many components including powertrains, but the front ends are significantly different. That alone could account for the difference in crash scores. It doesn't take much to get a bump in the scores... witness the ability to make small running changes to a design to move up a level. Will be interesting to see if Hyundai does that with the Sonata, which is due for a mid-gen refresh anyway for 2014 MY. They've done it before in recent years, e.g. made a running change to the previous-gen Elantra to get a Good on the IIHS side impact test.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,713
    edited December 2012
    IIHS Ratings
    Rated good:
    -- Honda Accord, four-door
    -- Suzuki Kizashi


    I still love the Suzuki Kizashi Sport. I am a steadfast Mitsubishi fan now, though, but someone could get a great deal on a Kizashi. I truly think it's a great midsize car.

    Incidentally, I didn't notice the Mitsubishi Galant in the list above. Who has a reasonable explanation for this? Talkin' about the IIHS safety ratings above, there.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,040
    I think they stopped making the Galant. That would probably be a good reason.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 15,472
    Mitsubishi and Suzuki?

    Do you collect stray kittens too?

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (daughters college car)

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,327
    The Galant was one of those mid-pack finishers that never seemed to "wow" consumers enough for them to come running down to the local Mitsubishi dealer. So small is Mitsubishi's market share and showroom that they just seem to tag on to other dealers.

    Lets pretend there is "Big Willie Chevrolet". Well, Mitsubishi just shares the showroom with Chevy. I can't think of even one self-supporting Mitsubishi dealer. About 5 years ago, I saw Galant's quite frequently, and I saw many Montero's, Montero Sports, and some other products I cant remember. Now, all I see are Lancer Turbos and Montero's. Maybe a few older Galants. My point being that Mitsu needs to either get serious or stop selling here.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    The Galant is no longer sold here. The last version did not catch on, so it was discontinued. Sort of like the Kizashi, except you can still buy one, if you want an orphan car.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,327
    "Kizashi" ...sounds like the name of a suicide ritual.

    "Where is Kali-go mother? He is never late to come for dinner"asks his 9 year old sister.

    I am sorry, but Kali-go was disgraced in battle and had to commit "KIZASHI"!

    LOL. :shades:

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • b25nutb25nut Templeton, CAPosts: 199
    Why isn't the Fusion on your list for potential #2. Since the Suzuki can be eliminated and the list of Acceptable cars is in order of their ranking in that category, the 2013 Fusion is #2 in safety behind only the Accord. The CR report on the Accord states that its two-position memory seats are unique in this class. That is true only because the Fusion has three-position memory. As has been said, all the cars in this class are winners. But I think at least 75% of potential buyers feel the 2013 Fusion is the best looking one, and this is a major factor for many people.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    But I think at least 75% of potential buyers feel the 2013 Fusion is the best looking one, and this is a major factor for many people.

    If this was true then the Kizashi would be selling better even with its questionable future as to who is going to service and supply parts for the next 10 years. That said though, in these situations, do mfrgs not ensure that owners of recently purchased vehicles under wty are not left high and dry? So... except for the CVT in the Suzuki, there is incredible value for the money there now on that car. They are going for close to HALF price are they not?..or let's say 40% off is probably a little more accurate. And it is not like Suzuki is going out of business world-wide. If anyone also wanted to enjoy some exclusivity, and they were within a reasonable distance to a selling dealer, for the price, nothing can touch it. Being the only affordable AWD in the group, doesn't hurt either. If you live in a snow-storm belt the decision is made that much easier. Having owned both, I would also consider Suzuki to have more affordable dependability than a Subaru or AWD Fusion.

    Anyway, I am looking forward to the day when some of these mid-sizers bite the bullet and start offering more affordable running costs with more AWD offerings. This can be done by using gas to drive the front wheels and independent at each corner electric hybrid motors driving the rear when situations dictate it. This is the best of both worlds for economy, by eliminating a heavy mechanical transfer case and associated heavy drive-shafts and differentials when traveling in 2 WD conditions dragging the reardrive components around for the ride 99% of the time (green conditions) but offering immediate electric assist for when conditions warrant. Imagine having the economy of a 2 WD car that has the ability to climb a steep icy driveway home each day, or the w/e jaunt to the cottage that is strictly an AWD road in the off seasons. This tech is coming and I wouldn't be surprised if Toyota will be the first to venture there given their history of hybrid (and AWD) designs in the past. That might be what turns things around with a more decisive result with them. OTOH though, I could also see Kia finally making such a move since there has always been a distinct lack of AWD offerings in cars with them and Hyundai. It is obvious many many people want AWD, and they buy SUVs to get it..but few are ok with the associated extra running costs. And others miss the less stressful handling of the lower CoG that cars afford. People also want interior room though, so I predict far more wagons will be the new norm in these new swappable driven-ended hybrids.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 15,472
    styling counts, but you have to also be one of the "real" brands to matter.

    2015 Hyundai Sonata 2.4i Limited Tech (mine), 2013 Acura RDX (wife's) and 2007 Volvo S40 (daughters college car)

  • Not only that but,

    Plymouth, Geo, Oldsmobile, Mercury, Pontiac, Saturn, Hummer, Saab, Mitsubishi, Suzuki,...

    Anyone notice a pattern, lol. You might even be able to add Mazda to this list if things don't turn around in the next year.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    Mazda? Nah. They have some great vehicles already (Mazda3, CX-5, Miata, CX-9) and the new Mazda6 looks like a winner, with Skyactiv power trains. Read a review of the 2014 Mazda6 in MT today; they were pretty positive. Just in styling, inside and out, it might be best in class. And it will be the only mid-sized family sedan except the Passat with a turbodiesel... but doesn't need the urea add-on.

    I don't know why Mazda doesn't sell more cars. The Mazda3 is very strong in the compact class, and the Mazda6 has been very competitive. Could be if Mazda wants to sell at a higher volume, they'll need to change their "zoom zoom" image, which might not appeal to a broad enough demographic.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Almost all of your examples here were merely victims of necessary downsizing of redundant offerings. GM being the majority here in one guise or another.

    Mazda is smarting (and rightfully so) because of the way they (didn't) handle premature rusting with the early to mid 2000 cars. They have lost a HUGE previously very loyal buyer base because of that alone. And regardless of how interesting their new offerings might be (a turbo diesel strikes a chord of particular interest to me) it takes time for some to forget/forgive.

    As for ZoomZoom, it is hard to say for sure if that has run its course by now or not. Pontiac flirted with "driver's car" years ago, but did not realize the (apparent) success that VW has had with it.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    I really don't think it has much to do with the rusting issue. Mazda fell way behind until the last couple of years in miles per gallon. It was definitely a factor in the low sales of the Mazda 6. With skyactiv , they have corrected this. It will take time to build sales again, but they will do it.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Perhaps it is just my perspective (although surely I am not alone in this thinking if anyone else does the actual math) but premature rust to the degree that these cars experienced it, costs a lot more to address than a 4 or even 7 mpg deficit in their class...even for owners who might do well above the national average miles per year, for even a decade or more.

    But I will give you the fact that many (and perhaps most) don't actually do the math, so incorrect perception might rule in a case such as this.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,769
    Not sure what the rust issue was about. I purchased a 2000 626 used in 2006, had been driven in Minnesota all those years. Then and my son drove it in Minnesota and Iowa for 4 more years. No rust at all, just a little corrosion on scuffs on the alloys. And it was a nice-handling car, enjoyable to drive (if underpowered by today's standards) even with well over 100k miles on it. I was more scared about the history of the AT than anything, but it held up also (gave it frequent fluid changes).
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    I've never heard of anyone complaining about excessive Mazda rusting. I did not experience it with either of my two Mazdas, and I live in Wisconsin, where salted roads are usual for a good portion of the year.

    Window sticker MPG is very prominent when comparing models. The CX7 for example was very thirsty compared to its peers. The Mazda6 had very poor mileage numbers for a midsize 4 cylinder. Until Skyactiv, the Mazda3 mpg was not competitive with similar cars. Of course not everyone buys on mpg alone, but it did hurt Mazda sales.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited December 2012
    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f19ab51/0

    We also have a lot of personal experience with this in our family and community and 3 sets of friends varying from 1 to 3 hours away, all have terrible rust in all the same places. The 5 wagon and the 3 were the ones most affected to my knowledge. This link is just one of many that will shed some light for you.
    The cars affected in our family and friends, do not park in a heated garage. I have seen some cars though that are so bad I suspect they maybe are put away wet.

    I find it a bit surprising that just in day to day observations you have not seen this for yourselves on cars sitting at the mall. They aren't considered mid sized so maybe that's why.. ;)
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,327
    edited December 2012
    My fam is from Buffalo. You should see some of the land barges that rumbled down my grandparents inner city street. It was at 14th St. on the east side. (Right under the Peace Bridge). (home was sold years ago and they passed).

    Why is this relevant? well, my grandfather ALWAYS bought Malibu's. His was a lovely brown V6 with tan interior, a picture of Jesus hung from the rear view mirror, and the Virgin Mary was affixed to the dash. We went up for Christmas every other year, and I loved it. It snowed EVERY DAY. I loved to sit on the porch an watch rusted out Chevy Caprice, Oldsmobile 98's, Delta 88's, Caddy's, etc. All were rear wheel drive w/ chains. No schools closed. The airport was most always open. Snow was a way of life there. The only cars that could survive were big and brutal. the rears always seemed to be dragging the ground. I miss those lazy days on the porch with my cousins and nieces.

    Merry Christmas to all!

    -Chris

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,713
    edited December 2012
    with Mitsubishi. They're the only manufacturer that makes any long-term sense to me. They build a great engine and a great powertrain and the best compact offering out there, the Mitsubishi Lancer GT.

    True, the Galant is gone. But I'm not in the market for a new car and Mitsu offers the Outlander Sport and Lancer and their new 2014 Outlander is an awesome SUV with AWD as standard equipment.

    2011 Kia Soul Sport 5-speed

  • OK, so it took two more weeks, instead of just one more. My new Ford Fusion finally arrived at the dealer today, and I'm picking it up tomorrow! WOOHOO!
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    I learned this lesson too late. Majority of my driving is on Rural highway of 55 MPH. My 2010 FFH does OK, gets in EPA and during summer exceeds it. My 2013 however cant even get over 38 highway, no matter what the temps are. I drove it down to Florida where the temps were in the upper 70's, and it did not do anywhere near 47 MPG.

    For the kind of MPG I am getting in the 2013 FFH, I could have saved 10K and bought a Focus.

    For those of you who dont live in a City, and are eyeballing this car, Do not buy the Fusion Hybrid! You will be better off getting the Titanium for less money. :lemon: :lemon: :lemon: :lemon:
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,327
    Since Mitsubishi has no current offering in a mid size sedan. we have not been talking about the companies offerings as of late. More than a few magazines have been questioning their commitment in the US market.

    They have the Lancer and the Outlander, both of which are not doing well. The companies finances are in question; and thus I would not feel comfortable at all with purchasing an automobile from them at this time.

    I can't even bear to talk about the Kia Sephia (shuddering). Uggghh.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,423
    So, you tend to stay with underdogs. Good for you. I suspect that Mitsu may also leave the US market, but like Suzuki, remains big enough to survive as an auto company worldwide. At this time, their products offered here are passable, but just barely competitive. Sales confirm that. BTW, the Lancer GT is not the best compact offering out there. Numerous comparison tests confirm that. Meanwhile, this is a midsize sedans thread. Mitsu doesn't even have an offering here.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,741
    Got a Kia Optima for a rental in Seattle earlier this week. Looks nice on the outside but was not impressed on the inside. The seats were really hard and not comfortable on a 1 hour drive (front and rear). Did not care for the red/orange lighting but that's just personal preference. The steering wheel controls are a mix of recessed buttons and raised rocker switches - did not like the rocker switches. The plastic around the center stack was really hard and cheap.

    On the good side, the drivetrain was pretty solid with good power and the tranny shifted well. Steering feel was good and the wipers worked well (it rained every day).

    I used a Hertz gold choice to select the Optima - the other choices were Camrys and Malibus. Lots and lots of Malibus. Given the choice I'd take the Optima again. Not a bad car for the money.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,327
    Which Optima trim was it, and what year? I am gonna guess LX or EX. They changed the seat cushions completely for 2012 models....but I have an EX and all I have driven other than that is the turbo SX.

    Thanks for the frank answers. I can tell you that I wear the toggle out for the stereo. Also, the FM reception sounds like AM (it's horrible). I immediately installed a Infinity powered sub with a volume knob installed near the fuse kick panel. Sounds great from thumb drive. FM still sounds like S***. Malibu's and Altima's proliferate the rental car market in many areas. Nissan sold 302,000 Altima's here last year. I don't know about the Malibu's sales. I will never buy GM again.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,327
    I am sorry. Mazda went through all the effort to make the CX-5 a "drivers crossover", then blessed it with only 155HP???? It is a big car!!! WTF?

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

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