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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I did NOT insinuate that you could recover the $1100 price difference
    Ahh, now I understand, this would be the difference between Fordspeak and the English language I guess -

    Your post #11574:

    As for the price difference on the Ford Fusion Hybrid versus the Toyota - I'm sure there is a difference in standard equipment. But even so, don't you think it's worth $1100 for significantly better fuel economy (41/36 vs. 34/33), BETTER reliability

    No implication there about recovering the extra money? No?

    I only referenced a specific test (C&D (02-09) Hybrid test) that refutes your 'significantly' better FE statemrent and also your claim for "BETTER' reliability something we simply don't have statistics for yet. The Fusion Hybrid is after all a 2010 model.
    It actually surprises me that you aren't crowing from the rooftops :confuse: - the Fusion Hybrid 'won' that comparo I'm referencing - despite the disparity in the claimed FE. To Ford's credit, they have apparently produced a car that drives less like a refirgerator than the others- something the enthusiast mags would obviously like.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    So how did Ford manage 41 mpg in the EPA city test? Do you think it was rigged? Or is it possible that the EPA driving cycle allows the Fusion to run on battery power a lot longer than the C&D testers did? That requires light acceleration and you know the C&D testers probably weren't driving that way. How is it that journalists managed 40+ and in some cases as much as 52 mpg in the FFH? It can be done.
  • robbiegrobbieg Posts: 323
    I see you are GM fan since you have a Malibu and Montana van. Come on admit it you would have considered a Malibu regardless of quality because after all you drive a Montana and used to have a 2000 Oldsmobile. So what cars did you drive besides a Malibu? Did you even try the Accord? Did you buy the Malibu because it was cheaper?

    I just think that few people actually cross shop an Accord/Camry and Malibu and actually buy the Malibu unless they are predisposed to buy a GM product. For the most part there are basically two categories of buyers, people people who buy Japanese and people who buy American. Few people bounce back and forth between an American sedan and a Japanese sedan. Unfortunatetly for the Big Three fewer people are buying American. I still think that Toyota and Honda are considered premium brands in comparison to Chevy and Ford. When is the last time that you saw a yuppie, who wasn't selling something, driving a Malibu? The reason for this is that the Big Three are only now starting to build decent cars after building crap since the 1980's.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    So how did Ford manage 41 mpg in the EPA city test?
    finally a good question, and one that is pretty much answered in that C&D test I'm talking about - yes the Fusion is 'programmed' to allow for all electric use to a higher speed than the TCH. Toyota, historically, has been a champion of setting its cars up to specifically do well in the EPA tests, Ford it seems has outdone them in this case. But the EPA tests have never really been terribly accurate reflections of the real world, something that apparently is continuing to be a problem.
    Did Ford rig the test? No, not likely. They simply designed (programmed?) the car to do well in the specific EPA test, as many manufacturers have done before them. Can you point to some journalist somewhere that can go out and rather dangerously have some 'fun' hypermiling - sure it can be done - and that would be the case for either the FFH or the TCH...
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,209
    They simply designed (programmed?) the car to do well in the specific EPA test, as many manufacturers have done before them.

    You forgot to point out how Ford programmed their airbags to make them perform better in crash tests too. We all know they are the same old vehicles with the same old engines. They just hired some top MIT programmers and voila', the cars test better all around! That's what it's all about right? Tests?

    There isn't a single bad review of the new Fusion in existence yet and not one picks any other sedan over it (although a full comparo has yet to be done). Apparently there's more than programming and government testing at work here captain.

    and one that is pretty much answered in that C&D test I'm talking about

    It's actually answered better here but you did sum it up fairly well. MT says they'll do another comparo and try to exploit the Fusion's ability to go faster on the batttery alone to see if the mileage increases significantly. I don't see how it wouldn't.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    That isn't some "programming" trick - it's quite an engineering feat to allow the vehicle to go that fast on battery power alone. The Escape was also better than average but not as good as the Fusion (47 mph). Ford has clearly out-engineered Toyota in this area (for now at least) and it shows in the EPA tests and most real world tests as well.

    Driving style has everything to do with mpg as evidenced by Autoblog's mileage test with the FFH. Two editors got over 40 mpg (as high as 46) while the other one only got 36. These are unscientific tests, though.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    It's actually answered better
    Got my mags confused :blush: Thanks for the link.
    C&D did do a hybrid comparo recently that the Fusion came out on top of though. It certainly does seem logical that if the Fusion is allowing a few extra mphs on the electric motor, that overall FE would be better IF real life driving allowed that condition to happen, something that is not logically happening under the admittedly aggressive hands of MT's drivers. I think the TCH will do things like 0-60 faster (7.6 vs. 8.5) though, leading one to believe that the TCH may be geared more towards the acceleration side of things than the Ford. Sub 8 sec 0-60s pretty darn quick for almost any car, never mind one that can return that kind of FE.
    I have no problem with the Fusion itself, it has done much to mend a pretty lousy 'Detroit' reputation. This has been almost universally noted and recognized by quite a number of repected auto experts. Ford the company, however, a different story, and not because of what they are beginning to produce, but instead where they are producing it - and at whose expense.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I think the Prius remains Toyota's engineering tour-de-force as far as milking the hybrid drivetrain for all it's worth. In any case, however, it is that high level of engineering in any of this type of cars that ALLOWS the mfgrs. to do these 'tricks' I contend they ultimately do all to to pry those precious few extra mpgs out of any car.
  • vanman1vanman1 Posts: 1,397
    Before my Intrigue I had an Accord and before that a Civic. I would never have considered the previous Malibu, it was cheap plastic everywhere and pretty bla in terms of styling. Montana van is for my wife's business, I rarely drive it.

    Before buying a Malibu I tested an Accord, an Impala, an Altima and a Fusion. I used to like Hondas but I see the value of many American brands which is why we have had a few GM's now. I actually almost went with a Fusion but I could not find an 08 left with a V6 when I went to buy. I actually had trouble finding a 08 Malibu also, they sold out quick in the fall when GM had 0% for 72 months in the fall. Honda had 1.9% for 48 months or 3.9% for 60, not near as good. I also didn't care for the dash or the looks of the new Accord.

    My friends are mostly professionals and it's really a mix of U.S. vs Japanese vs Euro. My single yuppie buddy has a Beemer, I can't afford that. Chevy was pretty basic transportation until recently. The Malibu, the Traverse and the coming Equinox and Cruze should slowly give it a more Honda like image though it will take a long while. That said, my Malibu looks very upscale and everyone who sees it and sits in it quickly realizes how nice it is.
  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    You fail to mention however you will pay upwards of $3,000-$5,000 more for a comparably equipped Camry/Accord. Also, what about the better financing you will most likely get and the interest you save over the 5 year loan with the Sonata? What about the 10 year warranty also. No repairs out of pocket for the Sonata.
  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    the anti-Ford attitude in this room. Ford has come a long way since the 80's. Seems as though some just can't get out of that mind set. I find it ironic how a Toyota or Honda product can improve, yet a Ford product cannot?. Or better yet, A Ford (Fusion Hybrid) outperforming a Toyota (Camry Hybrid)?? Some say it cannot happen, test was rigged? Well, folks, its happened. Take a look around the internet the Fusion Hybrid is pounding the Camry Hybrid. Yes, Ford out engineered Toyota. Heck! I can imagine what is going to happen when Hyundai out engineers Honda. No, this cannot happen.. :sick:
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,218
    I beg to differ with ya; I was upfront with the vehicles I chose. Lower model Accords compete with upper level Sonatas on price. Same with Elantra/Civic.

    I'm not sure what point you're trying to make. The discussion was resale value, not retail price used. Resale value is either trade-in value or private party sale value; not used retail price. For the majority of people out there it will equate to trade-in value as relatively few go through the added steps of doing a private party sale.

    To reiterate my point, if Car A cost $20K new and is worth $5K resale while Car B cost $23K new and has a resale of $7K, then Car B's higher resale in reality means Car B cost $1K more to own than Car A (other operating cost differences excluded). The brands, models, equipment levels, etc. do not matter.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    To reiterate my point, if Car A cost $20K new and is worth $5K resale while Car B cost $23K new and has a resale of $7K, then Car B's higher resale in reality means Car B cost $1K more to own than Car A (other operating cost differences excluded). The brands, models, equipment levels, etc. do not matter.

    I don't think many buyers consider this. Some cars, with higher resale value, are also easier to sell when the time comes. You will always get more selling it yourself, than from a trade-in.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    since I guess I'll plead guilty as charged as far as an anti-Ford attitude goes, I'll ask you - how do you feel about a supposedly 'American' company borrowing gobs of money specifically to buy out contracts of real working Americans and closing dozens of US plants just so they can put even more Americans onto welfare? And all the while they continue to support those economies in foreign countries by opening new plants on the other sides of our border and employing the citizens there! All of this has nothing to do with their products much, of course, but you too should be at least a bit 'anti-Ford' IMO - there is nothing that the company has done recently or is planning on doing TMK that is going to anything but hurt any efforts we in this country might make to pull ourselves out of this economic mess we are in.
    Ford's hybrid system in the FFH is apparently quite similar to Toyota's and not like those 'pseudo' systems offered by other mfgrs ( except Nissan who licenses use of the system from Toyota) - whether Ford simply copied it, properly developed it independently, or whether we have patent infringement lawsuits in front of us remains to be seen.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I don't think many buyers consider this
    oh, I think they do, this is one of the ultimate justifications for spending the extra bucks on that Camcord.. Resale value. The cheapest cars to own in this segment are NOT generally the cheapest to buy or even maintain and haven't been for a long long time.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    Show me where Ford has requested or taken a single penny from the government. Go ahead - I'll wait.

    Let's ignore that they moved Focus production OUT of mexico and back to the U.S. to make room for the triplets. Let's ignore that the 2010 Euro Focus will be built in the U.S. Ford is a global company and the Fusion is sold in latin and south america, too. Same for the upcoming Fiesta. Trucks, SUVS, mustang, taurus/mks, edge/mkx, flex, crown vic/grand marquis - all made in the U.S. or Canada. Get over it already.

    Ford's hybrid system in the FFH is apparently quite similar to Toyota's.....whether Ford simply copied it, properly developed it independently, or whether we have patent infringement lawsuits in front of us remains to be seen.

    No it does not "remain to be seen". Ford has publicly stated that no Toyota patented technology exists in the FFH and that none of the patents that they licensed for the Escape are applicable to the FFH. The fact that Toyota has not challenged this says all you need to know.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Some personally directed posts have been removed. Let's keep the conversation focused on the cars rather than the people who are talking about them. Thanks.
  • Elroy, its great to see you posting, you are my last home for a question on Honda features...

    Can you disable the function that re-locks the doors if you don't open it in time after hitting the unlock button on the transmitter?
  • If you own a Saturn and are willing to talk with a reporter about your experience, please contact jfallon@edmunds.com by Friday, February 20, 2008.

    Karen-Edmunds Community Manager

  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,897
    A little tired of the two person dialog on why Ford does or doesn't do this or that so I'll make a few comments on what I noticed at the show today.

    1. Chevy...new Cruze looks like a winner but it is three to five years too late. Volt could also be a winner but sell it already. Camaro's interior is pathetic. Hard plastic everywhere, toylike looking gauges....very cheap overall on the interior. I was very disappointed.

    2. Ford...some very nice products. New Taurus and Fusion are very nice but the 2010 models were locked up tight so you couldn't really evaluate....what a shame because the interiors looked nice through the glass.

    3. Chrysler....I walked through and didn't see anything I liked or that looked good except the Challenger which is just a hair too big for my taste.

    4. Toyota...2010 Prius---locked up tight. No 2010 Camry to even look at let alone get inside. Sat in a Venza. Fairly nice but a fair amount of cheap hard plastic and minimum size tires were 19s. What's up with that? How much do 19 in. tires cost to replace anyway. This tire size business is getting out of hand.

    5. Something I noticed is that Infiniti G37 vs. Lexus ES350 is no comparison. The G37 is just appears much better made inside and out. Push the steering wheel tilt button in the G37 and the whole dash moves with the steering wheel so you always have a perfect view of the gauges. Very nice and I don't think any other manufacuturer does that.

    6. Kia....I was very interested in seeing the new Optima and the new Forte(Spectra replacement). The Optima was absolutely ridiculous in regards to interior cheapness. The Forte from what I could see was actually nicer looking inside than the Optima but it was also locked up. What is with these manufacturers? I can see locking up a 150K Mercedes but a 15K Forte. Please.

    7. I liked the Hyundai Sonata but nothing new there. The Genesis was very nice...quality...stylish. The new Elantra Touring was there but locked up. Had a sign on it that it going to be coming FALL 2008. Isn't this 2009 already and shouldn't you be able to sit in this thing.

    I could go on and on but probably will bore so I'll close. It was a decent show and attendence versus last year was probably down about 10% from what I saw.(I went on the same day of the week last year).
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