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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    edited February 2013
    KIA has some great deals on the Optima too.... 0.9% for 36 months, or $199 lease, or $2000 bonus rebate if you own a competing car!

    http://www.kia.com/#/optima/offers
  • Not to correct you but the new Mazda 6 has a 2.5 liter. If you can find a dealership with one test, drive it. The gal that went with me encouraged me to stuff it into corners and rocket out of them. I was pleasently surprised. Being a Motorcycle nut I am ready for a fun car to drive. Now just waiting for some current magazine road tests. If the new 6 truly returns near 38 mpg it's a lock.
    Also regarding the 2.5 - 5 cyl. Passat, they have been making that motor since 2005. No wonder it does not measure up in performance and economy.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited February 2013
    Yes, it is not the as fuel efficient as some of its so-called 4 cyl competitors, but they do not have the smoothness (perhaps Honda's effort is close) and I doubt any of those higher hp/torque 4 cyl efforts from....Korea..as an example, feel as strong off the line. And I absolutely assure you NONE of the 4 cyl ones have as rewarding an exhaust note. And let's get some miles on those DI 4's before we further condemn that 5 cyl and its longevity/$ investment potential.
    As for FE being your primary beef..ya gotta pay to play/enjoy..
  • tundradweller1tundradweller1 Posts: 74
    edited February 2013
    VW 2.5 - 170HP 177 ft. lb. torque - 0 to 60 9 seconds - fuel economy 22/31

    Mazda 2.5 - 189 HP 189 ft. lb. torque - 0 to 60 7.6 seconds - fuel economy 26/38

    It may "feel stong" off the line but the numbers tell a different story. Already reading about VW dumping the 5cyl. for 4cyl. for next year.
    Cheers
  • pegasus17pegasus17 Posts: 536
    edited February 2013
    Not a bad engine, just outdated and outperformed by newer higher tech engines. Sort of like Windows Vista (i used it for many years without any major problems) compared to Win 7.
    If they were changing the engine this year, the Passat would still be on my shopping list. Can't wait for the 2014 model this fall; my lease is up in 2 months
  • VW isn't exactly known for quality and reliability...I personally wouldn't buy one. Not to mention the Passat is a pretty boring looking car, both inside and out, when you stack it up next to most of the competition. Probably the only cars more boring in that class are the Camry, Malibu, and Legacy.
  • mf15mf15 Posts: 158
    Accord december sales 29,428,jan sales 23,924 ,while camry sales are up
    accord drops. Must be all about the buck, no honda finance deals,no cash poor lease support. December had for a short time 500 cash if financed.
    Seems that crash test results have little effect on camry sales,if the general public knows about them.
    I suspect honda will have to lay out some form of support soon.'
    Old Mike
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 227
    Seems that crash test results have little effect on camry sales,if the general public knows about them.
    I suspect honda will have to lay out some form of support soon.'


    Perhaps many people don't worry so much about a new crash test as they do the new technologies in honda. Honda has a long history of transmission problems (well known to most, but denied by isellhondas) and coming out with a new CVT transmission (i.e. a first year effort) for the 4 cylinder probably isn't very soothing to many consumers. And the 6 cyl honda with its VCM leaves a lot to be desired, too. There seem to be no shortage of complaints over the 6 to 3 / 3 to 6 cyl changeover AND it also got a new transmission (a 6 speed). And if you want to have homelink (i.e. if you don't want to have a garage door opener on your sunvisor) you have to buy a 6 cyl accord as it's not an option on the 4 cyl. IF I were looking for a car I would forego the accord this year myself.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    The Passat, like any car, is perceived differently depending on the observer. To some, the design is stately and classy, looking more expensive than it is. There is almost an Audi look to it. In any event, it doesn't tread into "dowdy," like the old Ford Five Hundred/Mercury Sable that preceded the 2010 makeover of the Taurus.

    VW's quality had been in place for a long time (with some exceptions) and reliablilty has improved. The TDI models have had great reliability at least since the early 2000's. The TDI Passat is a gem: quiet, powerful, economical. It is more expensive, but you will get that back on trade-in, even if you keep it 10 years.

    To my eye, the new Accord, though an excellent all around choice, is a more boring looking car. The only standouts really are the Mazda6, Optima, and Fusion. The Sonata was on introduction, but no one much looks at them for their looks anymore.

    None of the current crop is awful, although the 200 styling certainly borders on it. The Malibu actually has reasonably good styling. The 2014 will address the rear legroom complaint a bit. The Malibu is certainly is more attractive than, say, the Legacy, although that may be damning with faint praise. I note Consumer Reports rates the Malibu just a hair higher than the Fusion, although that could flip flop soon, as Ford sorts out some of the complaints with what is otherwise a nicely styled, great handling car.

    It will be interesting to see if the new 200 coming will be a game changer. It is supposed to take Chrysler styling in a completely different direction.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,458
    I still think in this class, most people are more interested (or at least fine) with a simpler design (call it classy, understated, vanilla, or what not). Comfort, room, reliability, economy all are top items.

    sure, a flashy design gets a lot of attention, but it can get old fast, and will turn some people off. Especially if the style cuts into function.

    I personally think the Passat and Optima are 2 of the best looking in the class. And the new Accord also looks sharp now the Fusion is sharp, but I find the Sonota to be too overdone and awkward.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (daughter stole that one), and 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again)

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,719
    What I am wondering is, how many of those Camrys sold in January (and other months) were fleet sales? There's tons of Camrys in rental fleets, e.g. Hertz. Accords, almost none. That, plus the fact Camrys are heavily discounted and Accords still going for premium prices for the all-new model likely account for most of the difference in sales.

    One other thing I wonder about... the new Civic is a pretty nice car and plenty roomy for four people. I wonder how many buyers go into the Honda dealership, see the high prices on the Accords, and gravitate to the Civic instead? Not as easy to do for Camry shoppers... the Corolla is a sorry excuse for a small car (yet still manages to sell pretty well). Similar thing could happen to Sonata shoppers (real good prices on Elantras now), Passat shoppers (Jetta is humongous inside for a compact car), and maybe Altima shoppers (new Sentra is quite nice inside and out and more roomy than before).
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,719
    ... but I find the Sonota to be too overdone and awkward.

    Well, first of all, there is no mid-sized car called the Sonota. There's a Sonata, and IMO it's still a head-turner, especially in Ruby Red (which my wife has). I give Hyundai points for at least trying to spice up the usually boring mid-sized family car class. The Optima is also quite sharp, in a different way than the Sonata--more European. The Passat? Well, if you liked the old Impala you'll like the looks of the Passat. Although the tail lamps are kind of Audiesque. The Fusion is quite a looker, although I'd trade some of the looks for more back seat room.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    Funny thing...

    I liked the Passat better than the Sonata and my wife hated the Passat. She used to work in law enforcement and said it looked like a police cruiser, inside and out.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,719
    Yeah, maybe because a lot of those police cruisers were Impalas! :)

    People who like simple lines on cars would tend to hate the Sonata, though. The Passat, Camry, or Accord would be much more to their taste.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    I like the Sonata too ;)

    I lean more towards the Optima because of the more angular lines, but the Sonata really is a looker in the category.
  • bb49bb49 Posts: 20
    The bland dated and uninspired styling is precisely why Honda has lost my sale. Honda continues to make boring appliances. I just tried the new Fusion, the styling is just so much more attractive that placed side by side the Accord looks dated. I tried the rear windows in te Fusion, and they do roll all the way down.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    I like the style of the Accord better than the Fusion.

    But obviously everybody gets to pick their own favorite.

    Congrats on the car!
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,270
    The following is for potential buyers who may be viewing this site:

    I also loved the Sonata when it came out. A neighbor came home with a 2011 black SE 2.4 with dual exhaust and fogs. We talked for 1/2 about it. 3 months later I bought the 2012 Optima version. ($24,260 EX base in Spicy red).

    I found that the Optima was more to my liking as well. It looks a lot like the Lexus GS 250/350; a great looking entry level luxury sedan.

    14 months later, I still love it. Not one thing has broken after hundreds of commutes into DC. I would recommend it to anyone.

    However, there are a ton of fresh faces to choose from in this segment. The Fusion, Altima, Mazda6, Accord and Passat should be seriously considered and test driven before making a decision on ownership.

    Happy hunting!

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • yoonnyyoonny Posts: 33
    We were perfectly happy with Sonata but I like to try different cars for a lease so I leased the Accord EX-L 4 cyl in December. After driving it for over a month, there are lots of little things that makes this car not as comfortable as the Sonata. Here are the things that you might not notice at first but becomes annoyances once you own it for a while:

    Accord annoyances:
    Storage space (door, center console, armrest) are all pitifully small. Sonata wins it big time here with its big storage spaces and little nooks everywhere.
    Short front seat bottom makes it less comfortable.
    Automatic headlights go on and off on a bright day when the car gets into slightly darker spots.
    Trunk is narrow and the wheel well takes away more space.
    No HomeLink for garage door - Are you kidding me for an EX?
    No light in the glove compartment. Come on Honda!
    Poor cupholder location - Sonata's forward location next to the shifter is more preferred.
    No place to put coins.
    Door armrest is useless as it is so low.
    Hanging accelerator pedal - Sonata's is attached to the floor which make it way more comfortable (per my wife).
    Keyless entry - No way to open all doors without using the remote from the driver's side.
    Rear seat leg space - The floor bump is much higher than the Sonata's.

    Accord positives:
    Memory seats - Sonata lacks this.
    Back up camera
    Nice steering wheel with nice controls.
    Clear instrument panel.

    Tie:
    Design
    Leather quality
    Interior space
    Driving dynamics (yes Accord seems better here but if you drive the way most family sedan owners drive, there is no real difference).
    Bluetooth/USB - Bluetooth in these cars are still not optimal.
    CVT vs. normal transmission - There really isn't much of a difference.

    Overall, the Sonata is much better "family" sedan. It is not all about how well the car drives, it is more about how comfortable the car is for a family. And to pay slightly more for Accord for what I think is getting less of a car adds to my vote for Sonata. We will just have to wait for this lease is up. Oh well.
  • REF: 17464
    Thanks for the detailed post. My Sonata lease is up shortly and the Accord is #1 on my list. I will review your nits to make sure I don't have buyers remorse. As a second choice, i am looking at the optima with the convenience PLUS pkg (backup camera, high-tech mirror with Homelink). Optima has a $1500 price advantage for me due to incentives and that is why it's still a player. Need to do another test drive and look at some details i may have overlooked on short test drive.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,719
    What have you found wrt fuel economy?

    A big reason I went with the 2013 Sonata GLS vs. an Accord late last year was cost. Hyundai had aggressive lease prices for a loaded GLS (every option including homelink mirror) and gave me a very generous trade in for my 2007 Sonata (beat up, but they have their own body shop so I bet they made out OK on that). All in all I saved $3,000 over 3 years on the lease with the Sonata vs. an Accord LX--assuming the Honda dealer would give me at least as good a deal on my trade as Hyundai.

    For what my wife uses the car for, she would notice no significant difference drive-wise but does appreciate the extra features on the Sonata such as the heated seats and trick mirror. And I think the Sonata is a better looking car inside and out than the Accord, esp. the LX.

    If the cars were priced similarly, I would have given the Accord a very close look. But at the pricing available back then, it was no contest.
  • fury63fury63 Posts: 18
    edited February 2013
    So I have around 7K miles on my '13 Fusion Titanium. And while I am very happy with it overall, the one disappointment has been the fuel tank capacity. The specs state a 16.5 gallon tank but I'll be damned if I can get more than 12 gallons in when the fuel warning light comes on (maybe 30 miles to empty?). Ford dealer initially said it's reserve. I've never seen 25% reserve (4+ gallons). I pushed back and they are in discussions with Ford about this but as of yet no conclusion. My last car had an 18 gallon tank so for long trips this becomes a pain having to stop more frequently - especially in the winter where I don't like to push it.

    Any other '13 Fusion owners out there experience this?

    I'm wondering if they installed the Hybrid tank - which I believe is 13-14 gallons - by mistake...
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    Actually it is quite common to have that large a reserve when the fuel light comes on, my Matrix has a quarter tank left in it for example. I think this is partly due to the in tank pumps, while it is okay to occasionally drive lower than the fuel light, it could affect reliability of the pump if you drive it at the bottom on the tank all the time, I think the manufactures are co erring their behinds and making it so the light comes on very early so they get your attention.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    I've never seen 25% reserve (4+ gallons).

    Our 05 Nissan Quest is similar. It's about 21 Gallons and I can drive it below the E-mpty...but still it will only take about 16-17 gallons. I once drove so low I thought I'd run out...over a hundred miles more than I should have...and only put 18 gallons in (the most I've ever put in).

    I see it as a suggestion...next few days I need to fill up.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 227
    edited February 2013
    The reason the fuel light comes on so early isn't so much about YOU as it is about the fuel pump. The electric fuel pump is located in the tank and is cooled/lubricated by the gasoline in the tank. The light comes on more as a protective measure for the fuel pump (to keep it cool/lubricated) than for you. The best thing to do is refuel when the light comes on in order to preserve your fuel pump.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,690
    There appears to be a problem with some Fusion fuel tanks. One owner had his replaced which solved the problem. Ford engineer took the old one so I'm sure Ford is trying to figure out what happened. Common theory is a problem with the baffles. I've only had one fillup at 20 miles to empty and it only took 12 gallons so something is definitely wrong.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    Sorry aren't you confirming what the original poster reported? The to empty display on the car tends to be to the fuel light not to the actual tank being empty. Not saying there isn't something wrong, but it does sound to me that Ford is being cautious of the fuel pump due to issues they have had in the past ( and as many other manufactures are doing as well, see the other replies).
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,690
    Ford typically leaves 1.5 - 2 gallons in the tank when it says 0 miles to empty. And I think it's doing the same thing here. When mine is on E and I put in 12 gallons it moves off Full within a mile or two. It's not really getting full.
  • yoonnyyoonny Posts: 33
    i would stick with sonata as i feel like i downgraded and paying more money for accord. pretty foolish. optima price is really attractive and if it is similar to sonata, it should be a fine choice also.
  • yoonnyyoonny Posts: 33
    fuel economy is about even. i think you made the right decision. hyundai is getting more expensive but it is still much better value compared to honda/toyota.
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