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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 393
    Okay thanks for explaining, I would agree in that case there is probably something wrong with the tank, probably with the evaporative recovery system, I think most cars have a flap of some sort to help air bleed out when filling the tank, my guess would be it isn't working ( however the accomplish this).
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,682
    edited February 2013
    The Sonata was rated Marginal in the new IIHS crash test. Only the Accord of the top sellers was rated Good. By paying more you got that—very high grade steel in selected areas to help save your life, just in case. Marginal on the Sonata is two ratings down from Good.

    Also, the Accord has slighter faster acceleration than the Sonata, slightly better mpg, better handling, etc. The Accord also has better rear visibility, and you can roll down the rear windows all the way.

    The Accord definitely has some advantages.

    The Sonata has some advantages too, including lower price, more interior storage, etc., as you talked about in your very good review.
  • pegasus17pegasus17 Posts: 536
    edited February 2013
    REF: 17477
    In the test you mention the driver side curtain did not deploy on the Sonata while it did on the Optima - hmmm. Camry was a real mess in that test. However, I am not inclined to let this one test totally affect my buying decision. I am down to 3-4 choices to evaluate in the next 2 months. Right now, Accord is #1, optima is #2, 2012 Camry is #3 (only because of the killer lease deals available this month; money factor = 0.00001). If the 2014 Sonata gets released by April or May, that will be a player. I .like the looks of the Mazda 6 but i refuse to pay near MSRP for the new toy...
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,682
    edited February 2013
    I think the Optima is a good choice!

    I would personally stay away from the Camry, bc not only did it get a Poor rating in that crash test, it also tends to be rated last or close to last in most comparison tests.

    The Optima has only one drawback that I can figure out—it has very thick rear pillars, and even people who love the car otherwise (cski?) seem to say that's a bit of a drawback in terms of blind spots. Mirrors can help, of course, but I personally value being able to see all around me if I look back and want to change lanes with 100% confidence.

    I do like the style of the Optima. And I think the quality of the Optima is about the same as a Honda at this point—in other words very good. It also seems like a good thing that the Optima is made right here in the USA at KIA's excellent factory in West Point, Georgia.

    Trivia fact: KIA originally stood for "Kyungsung Precision Industry."

    If I may ask, what's your budget and/or what trim level or options are you considering?
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Interesting review. The lack of a glove box light in an EX I find harder to accept than a lack of Homelink. I wonder if it is there and the bulb or wiring connection is faulty? They usually only work with the lights on too, so if you are trying this in a dark garage, try turning parking lights on..don't forget to turn them back off of course. Shouldn't have to do that though. I doubt there were that many glovebox doors being left open killing batteries..
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    "Rear seat leg space - The floor bump is much higher than the Sonata's. "

    I wonder if the lower hump contributes to the Sonata's poorer crash rating too? The main reason humps have been retained even though they no longer have to make room for a driveshaft, is chassis structural rigidity and crash standards design.
  • fury63fury63 Posts: 18
    Exactly! Thank you for confirming. One thing I've never tried is going back to the station after a mile or two and to see if I can get more in. I hope it's addressed relatively soon. If you hear anything on your side I would appreciate it.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,682
    edited February 2013
    re: glove box light. I don't think the 2013 Accord has one. Don't see it on the spec page anyway:

    http://automobiles.honda.com/accord-sedan/specifications.aspx

    For 2013, Honda added a couple of thousand dollars of new standard equipment, but only raised the price a few hundred dollars. Examples of things they added to even the base LX model: new stronger ACEII body structure with ultra-high grade steel (outperforms not just Toyota but BMW, Mercedes, and Audi in IIHS small-offset crash tests), back up camera, much more advanced engines and transmissions, dual zone climate control, alloy wheels, bluetooth, pandora, sms text msg, etc.

    But, unfortunately, they did take out a few things in this generation, including the light in the glove box and the ski pass through for the back seat. Again, it's too bad, but to me it's a decent trade off to get the other things.

    I'd rather have the body structure that outperformed Mercedes than a light in my glove box. The Accord still has two map lights, a dome light, and lighted vanity mirrors.

    Instead of a glove box light you get:

    "The 2013 Accord unit-body uses 55.8-percent high-tensile steel, more than in any previous Accord. In addition, 17.2-percent of the steel is now grade 780, 980 and 1,500 – extremely high grades that have never before been used in any Accord. This contributes to higher body rigidity and reduced weight, which directly benefits ride and handling, interior quietness, performance and efficiency and long-term durability.....Collision safety engineering includes the updated Advanced Compatibility Engineering™ (ACE™) body structure, which improves occupant protection and crash compatibility in frontal collisions, and the most extensive use of high-strength steel in Accord history. "

    http://www.honda.com/newsandviews/article.aspx?g=honda-automobiles&id=6825-en
  • I've driven two models of the 2014 Mazda 6 along with others in this segment.
    The Accord Sport looks like a interesting option, driven the LX. The Optima does not have a spare tire, jack or a place to store them (!!??) One thing to consider if you live where it snows 18" and larger wide profile tires can be hazardous. Had to buy dedicated rims and snow tires for the wifes Sonata 2.0T
    While asking a woman at my office about her Nissan Altima 2.5 I mentioned the 2014 Mazda 6. She laughed and told me of her Husband’s Mazda that started rusting out a few years after they bought it. Now it has holes all over it.
    I research Mazda's rusting on the web and it is wide spread across the model line and not just the old Protege's either. Read the reviews and find many owners who say Mazda did not fix the rust issues and they will never buy another one.
    Mazda forums say to have your car rust proofed every year if you live in the salt belt.
    Real shame about the 2014 Mazda 6 as I would buy this car on every other merit.
  • pegasus17pegasus17 Posts: 536
    edited January 2011
    REF: 17484
    The new Mazda6 is made in Japan and the initial quality seems outstanding based on visual observations I've made. Can't say much about the rust issue, though. I would NEVER buy a first-year model but leasing is definitely the way to go for me.
    RE: Kia Optima. They now offer a spare tire as an option (~$100) so there must be someplace to put it (under floor area in the trunk). I wouldn't consider the Optima unless they added this essential feature.
    RE: Honda Accord Sport. This is the most popular accord model at the moment due to price/feature content. I can get an EX for only $1000 more than the Sport due to oversupply. Still deciding...
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,954
    I believe this to be an old problem with Mazda that hasn't been the case for many years. Early Hondas used to be rust buckets too and if people stopped buying them where would they be now. I have a 2007 Mazda6 with over 90k miles and not a spot of rust. If you think I am anal about keeping it clean...think again. I rarely wash it in the winter and wax it about every other year. Chicagoland winters aren't easy on cars finishes either. There were some problems with the early Proteges if I recall but that was quite some time ago. Early Hyundai/Kia products were junk too. They got their act together. I believe Mazda has done the same. IMO every manufacturer of midsize cars has increased their quality during the past 12 years. If one bought on experience from 12 years ago nobody would be buying the Fusion, Sonata, Optima, Passat, or others. They have all improved greatly.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Mazda most certainly did have an issue, from about 2002 to apprx 2006?

    This has been discussed before and always the same old things are said, but in doing so, does not negate the fact that Mazda did have a problem and they also alienated many customers by not taking responsibility for the KNOWN defect, be it the use of poorly or non-galvanized metal. The rust issues around the wheel wells were so severe that you can't just blame it on poor paint or prep.

    Honda (nor any other competing brand during those years) had this issue, so not sure why you singled it out. You may not have had trouble with your 07 but that doesn't mean that it took Mazda 5 years to address it, thereby causing all those owner's with MY's older than yours to be victims of premature lost value in their cars. It's a pretty sensitive issue that people are going to defend if need be.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,954
    Did I not say they had an issue? I can't comment on how they handled it because I wasn't intimately involved in it. The early Hondas were a joke in the 70s and early 80s and the issues with rust they had. Maybe they handled it better than Mazda did. Companies make mistakes. Maybe we should all go over to the Audi forums and warn people not to buy Audis because they once had a bad problem with unintended acceleration and they didn't handle it very good at the outset. Or over to Toyota because of their recent recalls and Hondas for their tranny problems about 9 years ago, or Nissan for their early CVT problems. Things do change and companies do correct problems.

    CR shows better then average results for the Mazda3(successor to the Protege) for body integrity and paint etc since 2005. That is over 8 years.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I really wish you had owned a 2002 Protege 5. Pretty sure it would have faltered your present day undying loyalty to the brand. It is only human nature to sometimes have to feel the actual heat in order to know they were burned.

    And not sure why you are bringing up a time period 43 years ago? lol
    But since you went there, I'll try to accommodate it. In any event it didn't help any point you were trying to make regarding poorly built vehicles in the last decade. This was a relatively short time ago using your multiple decade example, during a time period in which the ONLY brand that had this rust issue was Mazda. That pretty much puts the focus on them. Even poorly designed/built non-galvanized Kia's of the time didn't have the so obvious issue that Mazda did.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,954
    edited February 2013
    I get it, you absolutely hate Mazda and have an undying vendetta against them. That's fine. I really am not an undyingly loyalist or hater of any brand. I have one Mazda out of three vehicles that I own and may or may not buy another. I just related that I have had a great experience with the one I own in an effort to be fair and offer a different experience with the brand. I've had a couple of very bad experiences with a couple of brands but I don't go spouting out that nobody should ever consider that brand agains because of a problem they had ten years ago.

    I had plenty of recent examples as current as your Protege example. I simply mentioned the very old Honda issue as an example of how a company can go from the laughing stock to a very respected quality manufacturer and of course you jumped on IT and ignored the other examples. Very typical. lol.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I will refrain from rebutting what is typical, other than to say that once again you put words in others mouths in an attempt to justify your back-paddling.

    And nowhere did I suggest anyone not buy a Madza, my intention, like you say yours was, was to inform and offer input that they can either use or not, their choice.
    And you don't get it...if you did, you would not say I hate Mazda. I do not. But I also do not have respect for any company that does not do the no-brainer right thing, when it is glaring everyone in the face.
    I'm out...just no more putting words in my mouth please.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,954
    Don't know what you mean by back-paddling as I haven't changed my position or my statements. I guess we can agree that the rust problem for Mazda was 10 years ago and hasn't been an issue with any Mazda models since that time. Is that fair?

    It's just like saying that Honda had some tranny problems during the same time frame but hasn't had any significant problems with their trannies since.
  • The PC term is LGBT..................lol
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,954
    Had to look that one up. Good one!
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,682
    edited February 2013
    Which cars do you think are the best in class in these categories? Some of them are factual, in that you can just say a particular car has the highest EPA # or acceleration, but others are subjective such as:

    Best style: Fusion, Mazda6, Optima, Accord (to me I'd put all those as equal, although I know most others don't like the Accord as much).

    Best mpg: Altima (31 combined mpg), Accord (30), Mazda6 (30), Optima (28), Fusion (28)

    Best acceleration: believe the Accord wins this one for both 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder models, but I'd have to look it up...

    Best reliability & quality: ?

    Best safety: Accord for now, according to IIHS

    Most bang for the buck: ?

    Best visibility: Accord

    Best dealers: ?

    Best resale value: ?

    Lowest maintenance costs: ?

    Best handling: ?

    Best braking: ?

    Best paint colors: ?

    Best seats: ?

    Most interior room: ?

    Biggest trunk: ?

    Best glove box light: Not the Accord is all I know. Do the others have one?

    Best interior storage: again, not the Accord, but I don't know which one is best for this.
  • tundradweller1tundradweller1 Posts: 74
    edited February 2013
    Thank you M6user for your experience : (Quote: I have a 2007 Mazda6 with over 90k miles and not a spot of rust. If you think I am anal about keeping it clean...think again. I rarely wash it in the winter and wax it about every other year. Chicagoland winters aren't easy on cars finishes either. There were some problems with the early Proteges if I recall but that was quite some time ago.) 5+ years with no rust in the Midwest with similar non-obsessive washing/detailing habits. This gives a good indication Mazda has addressed the issue.
    Hopefully the new high tensile alloy metals are even better.
    Granted every auto maker has some major trouble. Toyota has the the most recalls ever yet they still outsell everyone. Carry on....
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    Accord equal in style to the Mazda6, Fusion, and Optima? Well, ok... everyone is entitled to his opinion.

    IMO the Accord should be ranked just above the Camry... at the BOTTOM of the "style" list. Maybe tied with the Passat. And I'd add the Sonata to the top group on style. It's a polarizing style, but... it's style.

    A lot of the other categories are objective. But for "best bang for the buck", I'd put the Accord at the bottom of the list, with the top being maybe the Optima, followed closely by the Sonata and Passat. That one depends a lot on the current incentives picture though.

    As for lowest maintenance costs... I think the cars with the long warranties have a decided advantage there. But it also depends on dealer practices, e.g. do they offer free oil changes and/or free extended warranties?
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    And this to do with cars how?

    Way to make an enemy, Peggy.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Hilarious, your first post left the impression that you were looking for feedback.
    Sorry I wasted my time.

    Way to ingratiate yourself. But there were far far far more worthy candidates..oh well..
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    This is actually a pretty worthy list, Benjamin. IMO, though, basically even your very first items are also potentially subjective, since we know that some autos aren't that close to their EPA. Acceleration too, in that not everyone does 0-60 blasts. Sometimes they might prefer a quick boot from 45 to 65 or whatever. And then the numbers might be shaken up a bit.

    I got a chuckle out of the best glove box light question. Regardless of how much so-called content Honda may have re-inserted back into the car, I still consider this penny-pinching tactic, a glaring omission. In my mind that type of cost-cutting makes me wonder where else Honda has crunched such ridiculousness. Just think of the possibilities..."If we chop 3/8" of length off every wire on every harness we can save x $ on our production. No matter that harnesses pulled and stressed to their limit..for the few failures we may have to wty, we'll clean up on this move in the end. Plus, just think of the quick go-to fixes our service shops can do well outta wty, since we'll already have a shortcut to the problem areas".

    Or whatever, pick your own example..

    For my interests, if most of these cars are relatively equal, I put exterior aesthetics aside, and place visibility out of the car as a priority. When operating any machinery in which there is constant interactivity, being able to see around you easily, is a stress reducer. Makes you safer too and can make crash worthiness less of an issue. Interestingly, Honda scores best in both these regards. If I recall, I think the low belt line was one of the characteristics of Honda's Civic that contributed to their popularity back in the good old days. Nowadays crash standards have us all sitting in a bucket it seems.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,830
    Take it outside if you want to throw personal insults. Our forums are available to talk about cars, not other members.

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  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,186
    edited February 2013
    You know, in defense of Honda; I think the new model is WAY better than the last three. It looks well built and classy. I like it's lines and am happy that Honda turned things around. I would have bought the EX if it had a 6 speed automatic instead of a CVT. However, I was ready to buy in December 2011..and the Optima was the best deal in town at that time IMO.

    It's nothing personal...I am just not ready to take home a CVT.

    Looking back a few years though, and I am amazed that Honda survived the 2003-2007 model years.

    That Buick looking jelly bean on-wheels 2003-05 had no style whatsoever. Even the fully loaded EX-L V6 was white toast on wheels. Honda responded to sagging sales by slightly changing the rear fascia with equally boring triangle taillights for the 2006-07 model. Then relief came with the 2008, but only just so.

    So, to me the new design is a revelation in comparison. Also, Honda has made the rear view camera standard on all models, and it is the ONE OPTION I regret not getting. (you guys know I bi*** about the Optima blind spot).

    Anyway, happy presidents day weekend guys/gal's. I am gonna go wash my car :shades:
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,186
    What? No one is condemning the 5 cyl WV Passat. It's a good car. Very good.

    The Passat SE and the Optima EX cost near as makes no difference $24,000.

    I can tell you from experience that VW parts are VERY expensive. The 100,000 mile warranty on my Optima is very comforting, almost as much as the soulful growl of my dual exhaust. To each his own.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,186
    The Optima LX/EX does not have a spare tire, but it DOES however have a space for one. The SX has a spare. In place of a spare the EX has a compressor and a fancy bottle of tire sealer. I was not pleased.

    A 17" generic 5-lug donut is $75.

    An OEM 2012 Optima donut is $175.

    A cheap 17" tire is about $150.

    So, lack of a spare is not really a deal killer. IMO of course.
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 791
    I have actually had some hands-on experience with several of the newest mid-sizers. I drove a new Mazda6 Grand Touring all day while I was having my CX-9 serviced one day last week. My brother-in-law is the body shop manager at a Honda dealer and he brought home a 2013 Accord Sport CVT for me to drive for a weekend. My best-friend has a 2013 Fusion SE 1.6 EcoBoost as his company car. I also had a 2012 Optima LX as a rental car for 10-days in Los Angeles last August.

    So here’s my take-

    Best style: Mazda6, hands down! The Fusion comes in 2nd and the Accord and Optima are a distant tie for 3rd.

    Best mpg:

    Best acceleration: 4-cylinder Accord is slightly faster than the Mazda6, but the Mazda6 feels faster with it’s 6-speed AT vs. the Accord’s CVT

    Best reliability & quality: the new Mazda6 has very impressive interior materials and assembly quality, I think it will also prove to be very reliable; Accord is almost a sure-thing

    Best safety: According to NHTSA tests, the Optima is crash test superstar; the Accord only rated 4/5 for frontal impact, Fusion 4/5 on Side Impact and Rollover and Altima got 4/5 on Rollover; the 2014 Mazda6 hasn’t been tested yet

    Most bang for the buck: The Accord is definitely the winner, especially the high-content and high-value Sport trim level

    Best visibility: the Mazda6’s technology makes it the winner, thanks to the Blind Spot Monitoring System and Rear Cross Traffic Alert in addition to the Rear View Camera.

    Best dealers: Finding a great dealer is hit-or-miss with most brands (Honda, Ford); Unfortunately, Kia and Nissan dealers (at least in the South) generally suck

    Best resale value: Accord and Mazda6 (Honda resale value is legendary; if the new Mazda6 follows in the footsteps of the Mazda3 and CX-9, it will be right up there with the Accord.

    Lowest maintenance costs: Optima’s long warranty wins this one; but the Fusion will be in the shop so frequently for recalls that it may seem like the cheapest

    Best handling: Zoom-zoom- the Mazda6 leads the pack

    Best braking: Fusion and Mazda6 have shortest stopping distance, almost identical to one another; Accord is a very close 3rd place

    Best paint colors: Fusion and Accord have the most colors to choose from and most of them are attractive; Mazda6 has the fewest choices (six) but at least of a few of them are stunners (Soul Red, Blue Reflex)

    Best seats: Mazda6 seats would feel at home in a Volvo

    Most interior room: Accord, Altima, Optima and Fusion all have 102-103 cubic feet of interior space, but the Optima and Altima come up short on rear leg room by several inches; Mazda6 is slightly smaller than the rest (99.7 cubic feet) but it feels just as roomy.

    Biggest trunk: again, the four listed above range from 15.4 to 16.0 cubic feet, so they’re all the same, but Fusion wins with the 16.0 if you live-and-die by numbers; Mazda6 is slightly smaller at 14.8 but shape and design make every inch useful.

    Further opinions and comments on specific models-

    Accord- as the former owner of three Accords, I was very disappointed by the 2008-2012 model- I hated it! The 2013 looks, feels and sounds like a Honda should.

    Mazda6- I am a big fan of the 2014 Mazda6- it is at or near the top in most categories and it looks amazing; it will never sell in the same volume as Accord or Camry, but should easily double the sales of the outgoing model.

    Fusion- a pretty face will only go so far; my best friend upgraded his company car from a 2012 Fusion SEL 2.5L to a 2013 Fusion SE 1.6 EcoBoost four months ago. It has been subject to three recalls and two warranty repairs and it is currently at the dealer for a third warranty issue! When it isn’t in the shop, it is slower than his previous 2.5L and gets 4-5mpg less overall. The MyFordTouch interface is cumbersome, counter-intuitive and inherently flawed (Ford’s equivalent to Windows Vista?). He is currently driving a rental Corolla and told me he wishes could just keep it and never see the Fusion again! That’s about as sad as it gets…..
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