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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,733
    Leather, but no heated seats?? I thought Hyundai/Kia stopped doing that with the old Elantra GT, that had leather standard but no heated seats available. I have one of those. The leather feels cold on those winter mornings! (Hyundai at least has seen the error of their ways and now includes heated seats standard on the Elantra GT, even with cloth.)
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 230
    A little something I found on the internet about honda transmissions. My 2000 accord 4 cyl had 3 replacement transmission in it before hitting 100k miles.

    Honda Accord, Civic & Odyssey Transmission Failure

    Widespread Transmission Problems Leave Honda Owners Up in Arms

    Transmission failure with the Honda Accord, Civic and Odyssey is a widespread problem in models made from 1999-2004. The 2003 Honda Accord, 2001 Honda Civic and 2002 Honda Odyssey appear to be the worst years for transmission failure.

    This is an issue with automatic transmissions and owners are reporting an average repair cost of $2,291. More than half the reported problems are happening under 90k miles, with 1 in 5 breaking down before the odometer hits 70k.
    What Causes This Transmission Problem

    If your engine will rev up, but the car won't shift into gear or move it could be a defective torque converter. In fact, the majority of Honda owners with transmission problems are saying the torque converter is failing and essentially burning up the transmission fluid, rendering the entire transmission useless.

    What is Honda Doing to Fix the Problem?

    Honda has offered some owners out-of-warranty compensation for the transmission repairs. Rather than going through your local dealership, it's best to contact Honda Customer Service at (800) 999-1009 and ask for a "goodwill repair". If you can provide proof that you followed Honda's recommended maintenance schedule, Honda may offer to pay a portion of the repair bill -- typically 50%, although some 2003 vehicle owners have reported having up to 75% covered.

    Watch out for Honda dealerships' abnormally high repair bill though. As one owner put it, "Honda has offered to cover half the repair cost. The problem is they want $5,000 to fix it. Are they nuts???" An independent repair shop will generally do the same replacement for $2,500 or less. Just make sure you get a comparable warranty on parts because the rebuilt replacement transmissions can fail just as quickly, if not sooner.

    2004 Honda Transmission Recall

    In 2004, Honda finally admitted to the problem with their 600,000 vehicle recall. Honda decided to recall the transmissions, at an estimated cost of $153 million to the company, after finding “10 transmission failures” according to Honda spokesman Chuck Schifsky. We're not sure where Mr. Schifsky is getting his information, because we've seen hundreds and hundreds of owner complaints. Honda later expanded the recall to include nearly 1.1 million vehicles.
    The models covered were the 2002-4 Odyssey; the 2003–4 Pilot; the 2001–2 Acura MDX; the 2003–4 Accord V-6; the 2000–4 Acura 3.2 TL and the 2001–3 Acura 3.2 CL.

    Unfortunately Honda's transmission repairs, especially for those engines that had less than 15k miles before the recall, were not guaranteed to keep working. According to the Wheels blog on NYtimes.com:

    In a complaint filed with the Center for Auto Safety, Jeremy Berens of Vienna, Va., said his 2003 Accord was recalled when it had fewer than 15,000 miles on the odometer. But it failed in December, with the mileage at about 67,000, as he tried to merge onto a busy highway.

    “I was nearly rear-ended and had no warning,” he wrote in his complaint. “Honda has not properly fixed the recall that occurred in 2004 and are failing to recognize that a problem exists.”

    He said Honda agreed to pay 40 percent of the repair after the district manager interceded on his behalf, but it still cost him $2,750.

    2006 Honda Transmission Class Action Settlement

    In 2006 a class-action lawsuit was settled against Honda in the Superior Court of California for Alameda County. The suit claimed that Honda misled consumers by selling them vehicles with defective transmissions. Honda settled the case without ever admitting a defect and denied the charges.

    Owners covered in the lawsuit were given an extension of the transmission warranty to 93 months or 109,000 miles (whichever comes first), starting when the vehicle is first purchased or leased. According to court records, the plaintiff’s lawyers received nearly $5.5 million in addition to expenses, according to court records.

    The models covered were the 2000–1 Accord; 1999–2001 Odyssey; 2000–1 Prelude; 1999–2 Acura 3.2 TL and 2001–2 Acura 3.2 CL. The problem is most of those vehicles are well past the 93-month time limit and some owners are unhappy because they're left to cover the bill when their transmissions fail outside the warranty extension, with repairs sometimes costing up to $4,000.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    thanks for the info. Now I guess we can get back to discussing midsize cars in general and not Honda transmissions as the problem was 10+ years ago.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,285
    2012 Optima was rated good on IIHS test across the board. Big reason to buy for me. 3 kids under 12. Kia sweated the details. In 15 months and as many miles, not one thing has gone wrong on my car.

    The Audi designer/engineer that Kia hired away (Peter Schreyer) knows his stuff. A better set of tires would make a big difference in handling. I am looking forward to a Set of Pirelli's at 30k. :)

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,781
    edited February 2013
    What kind of tires were standard?

    And yes, the Optima is a very nice car. It has a lot of style, quality, value, and performance for the money. And made in USA+++

    Like you I like Peter S's work, but at least we agree he should fix those blind spots for the next gen.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 230
    I may soon be in the market for a midsize and the accord is one of the cars I would consider. After reading about the complaints about the CVT shuddering/pulsing I did a quick search and found the article below. If I get an accord I think I may just wait a year to see if they get this worked out.

    Honda Cvt Gearbox Problems:
    Drive Belt Slip
    The CVT gearbox drive-belt slippage problem mentioned by the website Honda Problems occurs during acceleration. The problem affects the automatic transmission, causing the car to shudder and hesitate when accelerating. The CVT gearbox may also affect acceleration, causing speed reduction when the engine is about to make maximum revolutions per minute.

    Noise
    CVT gearbox noise related to clutch slip during acceleration is mentioned by TRNW.com. The noise is generated via the pulley and belt system that supports the gear ratio change-through. Adjusting the belt back to position corrects the problem.

    Fluid Leak
    The CVT gearbox automatic transmission ATF fluid leaks mentioned by Honda Problems cause low ATF level and require top off. A dealer should check a CVT gearbox to make adjustments as recommended in the manufacturer's car owner's manual
  • pegasus17pegasus17 Posts: 536
    edited February 2013
    REF: 17574

    That info you posted comes from a 2005 Civic complaint. is it relevant to the 2013 Accord?
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 230
    REF: 17574

    It tells me that honda has a history of transmission problems and perhaps buying a first year transmission from honda would not be a wise thing for me to do.
  • I agree. I never buy a first-year model of any make. But, i am considering leasing since the warranty covers all for the term of the lease. I did that with my current Sonata and it has been very reliable.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    My response was mostly about the previous person's post about having had three failures already. It's time to toss that toad and get another vehicle.

    Unfortunately, the new CVTs aren't a big improvement. But the only way to avoid it on many models is the get a 4 cylinder car with manual. Which drives a lot better and will cost you a fraction to repair.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    I bought the second Fusion that rolled off the truck back in 2005. Not only a new version but an entirely new vehicle on a new platform. I just traded it for a 2013. In just over 7 years the only thing I had to do was oil, filter, a new battery, 2 tire changes and replace the driver's door handle ($60 and 15 minutes). Except for the dead battery it never failed to start or had any other problems.

    Problems that occur on today's new vehicles are usually engineering goofs or supplier goofs that are easily corrected and don't reoccur. Minor inconvenience.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,285
    edited February 2013
    Thanks so much for saying that about the Car and driver "0 to $60 an hour" for labor on a new clutch, pressure plate, throw-out bearing...and if it is a fancy dual clutch then another clutch, pressure plate, throw-out bearing......

    I posted an average of 3 tests on the V6 Accord. I think 6.1 is repeatable by someone who hasn't won a Motor Sport championship of some sort.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,285
    edited February 2013
    Dude, it's BARELY even leather. The luxury package is another $2500....and includes the dual sunroof, power passenger seat, and the seat heaters. Did I mention the 3 kids?...and the feeding, clothing, and I-Padding of aforementioned kids?? :cry:

    In my previous vehicle, the Jeep GC, the sunroof leaked and the seat heaters broke, only heating my back on high, then dumping water on my head. SWEET! :cry:

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • I have a 2000 Honda Odessey minivan with over 152,000 miles with many miles of towing a 1,500-lb trailer and have had no transmission problems or other problems. I also had a 1983 Chey van with a 4-speed automatic TX which was replaced three times during the same mileage (not to mention two torque converters). I never saw any warning about Chey's TX problems but thousands had to be replaced.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    1983? Seriously? GM was crap back then and we all know it. But their automatics are the most reliable currently. The cars themselves are uninspiring Toyota-level vanilla rental fodder, though, so it's a bit like a deal with The Devil. You get immortality but you're stuck being a tree or something equally unappealing. :P
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,285
    edited February 2013
    I agree. We are here to talk about recent model midsize sedans we let the Odyssey go because we were talking about Honda transmissions, but now that is over. Let's get back on topic. There are only a few of us that share, but many people come here and make serious decisions about whether or not to buy a specific new car.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,896
    Good call - thanks for doing my job for free! :P

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  • mtnman1mtnman1 Westerville, OhioPosts: 383
    I replaced my original set of Michelans on my 2009 Fusion SEL V6 about 15,000 miles ago with the Continental Extreme Contact DWS. I was looking for a good All Season Tire that would give me decent traction in the snow and would handle nearly as well as the Michelans. Plus I didn't want to break the bank and to replace the Michelans was going to be $260 mounted, balanced, and tax each. I got the Continentals through my Ford dealer because Ford guarantees they will beat any other local tire price. I spent $690 for the set OTD. I highly recommend these tires. They ride and handle just as well as the Michelans plus are very good in the snow. The Michelans were terrible in the snow since they were considered a summer performance tire.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f0b3259

    There is an entire *thread* about this. My comments about what the transmission shop/rebuilder said concerning Honda CVTs is accurate as far as I am concerned.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,285
    edited February 2013
    How many miles did you get out of your Michelin's? I am hoping to get 25-30k out of my stock tires..... I can't wait to see how much of a difference it will make to go with Michelin Pilot or the Continentals you mentioned. My choice will be depending on price, and after getting more data on real-world wear. Also, my car's stability control can't be completely shut off (but traction control can), so paying for a tire that can handle .96 g of lateral grip on a car whose computer ends the fun at .83 is a waste of $. Pirelli is really my 3rd choice; now that I think about it! $690 is a good deal. Since you have the V6 Fusion SEL, I assume you have 17" tires.....possibly 215/55/17 94-V? That is my size as well.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    so paying for a tire that can handle .96 g of lateral grip on a car whose computer ends the fun at .83 is a waste of $

    I thought the computer safety nannies jumped in AFTER any slip is detected. So upgrading the tires should give you more 'play' room.

    On my previous RWD car if I hammered it like a maniac it would intervene after a slight chirp and wiggle of the rear end. Similarly it intervened at much lower speeds when it was wet out side...because it detected the tire slip situation.

    I think if it were just looking at your g's you'd end up spinning out of control on slippery surfaces.
  • mtnman1mtnman1 Westerville, OhioPosts: 383
    I had 35,500 miles on my odometer when the new were put on. I think I could have gotten another 5K out of the Michelans but it was January of 2012 and I feared going into the snowiest time of the winter here with tires that were crappy in the snow when new. My tire size is 225/50ZR17. By the way my Fusion has been a great vehicle. How do you feel about yours?
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,285
    edited February 2013
    On the Optima it has a lateral G sensor, as do all stability control programs. When the system detects .82 of lateral G, it commands the system to apply the brakes, killing the fun. .96 lat/g tires are a waste of money. Stability control (helps) keep your average idiot from killing his family entering a corner with too much speed. :cry:

    You are confusing stability control with AWD, which adjusts to an ACTUAL loss of grip. Then we enter the world of locking diff's as well.

    I can turn off the traction control completely though...so I can do hella burn outs. ;)

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    Ford's stability control does not measure G forces. It measures yaw rate with several sensors including steering. It will not kick in until the vehicle actually understeers or oversteers so the better the tires the higher the Gs.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,285
    Ford calls its sensor the L.A.S...Lateral Acceleration Sensor. It is the same thing. . My car also has a yaw sensor.

    From Wikipedia "ESC incorporates yaw rate control into the anti-lock braking system (ABS). Yaw is a rotation around the vertical axis; i.e. spinning left or right. Anti-lock brakes enable ESC to brake individual wheels. Many ESC systems also incorporate a traction control system (TCS or ASR), which senses drive-wheel slip under acceleration and individually brakes the slipping wheel or wheels and/or reduces excess engine power until control is regained. However, ESC achieves a different purpose than ABS or Traction Control.[20]
    The ESC system uses several sensors to determine what the driver wants (input). Other sensors indicate the actual state of the vehicle (response). The control algorithm compares driver input to vehicle response and decides, when necessary, to apply brakes and/or reduce throttle by the amounts calculated through the state space (set of equations used to model the dynamics of the vehicle).[34] The ESC controller can also receive data from and issue commands to other controllers on the vehicle such as an all wheel drive system or an active suspension system to improve vehicle stability and controllability.
    The sensors used for ESC have to send data at all times in order to detect possible defects as soon as possible. They have to be resistant to possible forms of interference (rain, holes in the road, etc.). The most important sensors are:
    Steering wheel angle sensor: determines the driver's intended rotation; i.e. where the driver wants to steer. This kind of sensor is often based on AMR-elements.
    Yaw rate sensor : measures the rotation rate of the car; i.e. how much the car is actually turning. The data from the yaw sensor is compared with the data from the steering wheel angle sensor to determine regulating action.
    Lateral acceleration sensor: often an accelerometer
    Wheel speed sensor : measures the wheel speed.
    Other sensors can include:
    Longitudinal acceleration sensor: similar to the lateral acceleration sensor in design but can offer additional information about road pitch and also provide another source of vehicle acceleration and speed.
    Roll rate sensor: similar to the yaw rate sensor in design but improves the fidelity of the controller's vehicle model and correct for errors when estimating vehicle behavior from the other sensors alone."


    The truth is that all of these sensors work together with ABS and (Traction Control System) and many even cut power to mitigate yaw. My car cuts power if it detects over .82 or if the system detects loss of grip...whichever comes first.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,285
    To answer your question mtnman1, I love my car except for 3 things.

    1) blind spot
    2) Pass seat: no height adj.
    3) No spare tire (compressor/sealer kit included). (LX and EX trim).

    So, not only does it have a blind spot, but my passenger can't adjust the seat high enough to see either.

    There is a nit-picking issue on the steering. It is numb and slow. Feedback is better when pushing it near it's limits, and on the highway at high speed.

    Here is a link to a 5 car comparo from C/D: http://www.caranddriver.com/comparisons/2013-chevrolet-malibu-eco-vs-2012-honda-- accord-ex-l-2012-hyundai-sonata-se-2012-kia-optima-ex-2012-toyota-camry-se-2012-- volkswagen-passat-25-se-comparison-tests

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • Personally I will not buy a CVT equipped car period. The current Altima has plenty of complaints, even the 2013 Accord has some. They may be fine for lease owners or those who change cars often, I drive them a long time. Same goes for sunroofs. I know far too many people that regret having them. Added noise, leaks and repairs etc.
    The current DI four cyl. engines get decent mileage while providing enough power output for the average consumer. My current V6 averages 27 mpg and 25 in winter. The next car must be in the 30's.
  • jipsterjipster Posts: 5,345
    Speak on repairs. What goes wrong and cost. Seems still would be cheaper than an AT rebuild, repair, replace.
  • REF: 17594 (cski)
    If you could start from scratch (i.e., no Kia), what would you buy/lease this month?
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