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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • Once I parked it next to a soul red model that settled the color decision. Black interior.
    The 19's look cool but I drive in allot of snow in the winter. I do not want to buy dedicated rims and tires like we had to for the wifes Sonata. At least they are both alloy rims.
    I'm a minority on the subject of not wanting a V-6. Fuel economy is a factor with all the driving I do. Still waiting to hear back on delivery......
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,189
    I did not see 19" wheels offered on the Accord in any trim or package. The full zoot V6 coupe only offeres 18" alloys. However, in other Accord news I am now convinced that all V6 Accords are capable of sub-6 second 0-60 times. The coupe was long-term tested by C/D, and they were able to achieve 5.5 seconds with the automatic version. The more I see the new Accord, the more I like it.
  • fury63fury63 Posts: 18
    Take those two issues away and it's a really sweet ride. I hope the tank is addressed soon. I'm leasing this. For the number of miles I put on and what my company gives me it works out better than buying.
  • Sorry, I was referring to the 2014 Mazda 6 Touring/ GT with 19". The I Sport has 17's
    The Accords have 16's on the LX, 18's on the Sport and 17's on the EX & Coupe. I drove both the Honda LX and Sport. While they handled surprisingly well for Accords the Mazda was better overall. Personally I find the styling still says "grocery getter" compared to the Mazda. Which in reality is what all the four door sedans are. ;)
  • marcus216marcus216 Posts: 78
    I just purchased a new 2013 Honda Accord EXL V6. My lease was up on my 2010 Acura TL My plan was to lease another TL until I saw and drove the new Accord. The new model is light years better than the outgoing Accord model on every level. It actually rivals my 2010 TL with a nicer interior, more back seat room, bigger trunk, much better gas mileage, and tech gizmos missing from the TL. And I got all this for about $26,500 and 1.9% financing from Honda. At that price, I bought the car and passed on leasing. Now the TL was a handling dream and the Accord cannot compete with that, but the Accord handles very capably and I will gladly trade some handling for the ultra smooth ride and significantly better gas mileage. The new class of midsize sedans from the mainstream manufacturers now rival entry level luxury sedans, in my humble opinion, especially the interiors. Why pay $40k to $50k for luxury sedans that don't seem that much more upscale than many of the normal family sedans?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,668
    The new class of midsize sedans from the mainstream manufacturers now rival entry level luxury sedans

    Indeed. My 2013 Fusion Titanium has Adaptive Cruise Control, Collision warning, Blind spot detection, cross traffic alert, MyFordtouch, backup camera, electronic parking brake, selectshift manual shift capability, automatic wipers, automatic headlamp dimming, Navigation, sirius travel link, sat radio, heated seats, intelligent access with push button start, remote start and 19" wheels.

    Amazing.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,830
    A reporter would like to speak to a recent car buyer who considered a 2013 Toyota Camry, but ultimately went with either 2013 Honda Accord of 2013 Ford Fusion. If you fit this description, and would like to discuss the appeal of either of those cars versus the Toyota model, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than noon Pacific, Tuesday, 3/5/13.

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  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,189
    edited March 2013
    After buying a drop-in K&N filter for my Optima 2.4 today, I found some dyno testing done by K&N on the Sonata/Optima 2.4 and on the VW 2.0T motor. Both engines are rated at 200 HP, and Torque is (reasonably) similar as well. However, I found a HUGE discrepancy in dyno results.

    The dyno testing done by K&N on a 2011 Sonata 2.4,Shows wayyy less horsepower than 200. More like 139 HP! Also, 149 lb-ft torque instead of 186. See it here:

    http://www.knfilters.com/dynocharts/69-5301_dyno.pdf

    Now, I assumed that this is supposed to be at the wheels, until I saw the dyno results on the 2012 VW 2.0T. It showed 179HP and 194 lb-ft. See it here:

    http://www.knfilters.com/dynocharts/69-9504_dyno.pdf

    How is this possible? Hyundai very recently got busted for over estimating fuel economy figures, and I can tell you that I am struggling to get more than 22mpg on my 12 Opt EX 2.4. Could they also be exaggerating the output specs? :confuse: :mad: It sure looks like it here. A fluke?

    *** These tests were done to show before/after horsepower on the full cold air intake system- ($200 to $400). I just purchased the drop in filter-charger. It was $40 on eBay, including shipping.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Should have saved your money cski. Although, admittedly if you Google K&N air filter pros and cons, there are probably going to be as many hits as an oil thread.

    I do not use them, because I look at in two ways (although I confess I first derived my opinion when bike racing so..the application on performance bikes) but the two reasons are this: first, any filter media that lets more air in (that's how they get the higher hp and tq numbers) lets more dirt in. It really is as simple as that. But I'll be backing back outta here before replying to the probable deluge of posters wanting to argue it..like I say, Google will reveal. I say, use your own brain and power of reasoning.

    Second reason, is that the design and cubic inch area of air boxes are quite specifically designed to optimize intake air flow, maximize FE and exploit hp and torque. If you doubt it, just remember that exhaust manifold design (headers in a perfect world) all contribute to maximize the engine's abilities and if how air being handled can be tuned on the exhaust side of things, the same holds true for intake air. Do you really think that K&N can custom design a filter pefectly to maximize each vehicle they can supply for from an air management engineering aspect? No..they just make and sell what fits..

    And the biggest problem is a consumer too easily falling in to the buy it/replace and forget it trap. It's a novelty in the beginning, but very maintenance hungry ongoing after. And messy. If you are diligent and re oil correctly etc etc and when you should, then you might have at least a little less damaging end results than the vast majority of enthusiasts that get hooked on the K&N bug. Good luck, but if you haven't installed it yet, take it back and get your money back....unless you really do plan to be diligent forever.

    Every used car/bike I ever consider buying is ruled out as soon as I pop the hood and check the air filter. Keep in mind that for track use, a K&N can perform as an air filter not too bad because it is at least a controlled environment. There is less dust for starters, and the debris that is there..rubber rollers, usually do get trapped well and don't prematurely clog the filter like road dust dirt does, and can be tapped out after a race..
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,189
    Actually, you are right! If you combine the Optima and the Sonata, then it equals 29,150 units sold. The $ all goes to Mr. Hyundai!
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,189
    The filters are approved by the manufacturer, and does not void the warranty. Also, if you can't already tell by my posts, I am as diligent as any car nut could ever be!
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    The filters are approved by the manufacturer, and does not void the warranty.

    Well, the primary reason for this is that as the filter clogs, it actually starts to filter better, but up to the point that other issues will present themselves, reduced power and FE, and eventually the filter gets addressed.

    Ya, I can see you probably being diligent..still doesn't mean that the air flow PATTERN going thru your new K&N is superior to the pattern it takes through the OEM filter. And it is a scale that changes. I wish I could show you the number of airboxes I have serviced on bikes that have patterns of oiled dust (on the clean side) on boxes that always used OEM filters and then after K&N. Although I suspect pics wouldn't make a believer outta you either..

    Carry on..I knew it was probably going to be a wasted post going in, but thought maybe a non-regular lurker might read it and hopefully they will benefit.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,665
    The dyno testing done by K&N on a 2011 Sonata 2.4,Shows wayyy less horsepower than 200. More like 139 HP! Also, 149 lb-ft torque instead of 186.

    Now, I assumed that this is supposed to be at the wheels, until I saw the dyno results on the 2012 VW 2.0T. It showed 179HP and 194 lb-ft.


    I'm not a mechanic or engineer...so I'm probably just making this up...

    I've heard (from some where) that typically there is a 15% loss from the published bhp figure to the actual number produced by the dyno. Each dyno is different so you really need to compare readings from the same dyno.

    So the Sonata at 200 should read 170 hp on the dyno (200 - 15%).

    The results from a dyno are typically 'corrected' for temp/altitude etc.

    Hyundai has previously been 'caught' with errors in their HP figures...so who knows; that does seem a bit low to me.

    I believe the VW 2.0T is know to be underrated by VW; that the actual 'real' number, such as as 179 at the wheels, would corroborate.

    I agree with the previous post regarding K&N filters. Unless you're "on it" all the time you're wasting your money. Plus...the only real benefits I've ever seen are when you've made other changes to the vehicle such as engine, boost, exhaust, etc. I would expect you'd get 1-2 hp extra at best...maybe at peak RPM too... So unless you're racing it (then I'd suggest the turbo) I don't think you'll notice it at all.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,428
    No such thing as a free lunch. If more useable hp couple be found for a just a few bucks the manuf. would do it in the first place.

    Regarding hp numbers. I don't think Hyundai under rated. There is usually quite a large loss going from the engine to the dyno. - especially in an automatic. The VW may have been a manual (which puts more power down) and the VW 2.0 is notorious for being under rated. They don't want to compete with Audi so they under rate the engine for VW applications.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,668
    Get oil on the MAF sensor and see if the mfr will replace it for you.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,830
    A reporter would like to speak to a recent car buyer who purchased a 2013 Ford Fusion after owning a Honda Accord, Toyota Camry or another car from a Japanese brand. If you would like to share your story, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than Tuesday, 3/5/13 at 3 p.m. PT/6 p.m. ET.

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  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    edited March 2013
    Latest issue of CR, April 2013, has Honda Accord at the top of mid-size sedans. This has been going on for about 3 decades. Will the American brands ever catch up, much less surpass, the Honda? Waiting, waiting, waiting. The Japanese have the superior engineering and reliability. Will the American brands, and the Italian/American brand, ever, ever catch up, surpass?
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,641
    edited March 2013
    My dad's 09 Accord v6 has basically been a disaster. Honda is basically going to rebuild his engine for the second time in the past 12 months free of charge. He has about 90k miles on it w/o an extended warranty. He started having misfire issues at around 60k miles and Honda has only charged him $100 for the numerous repairs and has always provided a rental car.

    This is his first non-domestic and he is just floored by how well Honda has handled his issues. He dropped his car off at the dealer on Monday due to the misfire issue and flashing CE light. Within an hour after dropping it off, an engineer from Honda USA was on the phone with him apologizing for the problems and explained how they were going to fix it. He never received that kind of service with Ford.

    I'm willing to bet my dad will by another Honda despite the serious engine trouble he's been having with his Accord.

    The new Accord really looks nice. I saw an Accord Sport the other day and thought it had a presence about it that the Accord has lacked for a long time. Good performance, good fuel economy, and decent looks inside and out. It probably would be my first choice in the family sedan segment.
  • xrunner2xrunner2 Posts: 3,062
    This is his first non-domestic and he is just floored by how well Honda has handled his issues.

    Sorry to hear about your dad's issues, but apparently Honda has stepped up, as is usual. More than some domestic brands have done when for example car owners reported extraordinary oil consumption on their cars, such as Cadillac CTS.

    I was "blown away" when we started buying Hondas in 1984. Their superior engineering and low tolerances in engine parts made for incredibly low oil consumption. Have had numerous Honda and Acura cars over 3 decades and all of them had very, very low oil consumption/burning between oil changes. Outstanding engineering not available with American brands.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,641
    It's obvious overall how well my dad's '09 Accord EX-L v6 is built. It definitely has a level of refinement not replicated in most vehicles in that class. Probably my only complaint would be road noise, it just isn't very quiet. The powertrain is exceptionally smooth and refined. And everything feels tight which I really like.

    The problems with his engine originated with oil consumption. Which from the little research I've done could be related to the VCM system. He always took it to the same dealer for all oil changes and service. IIRC, he had an oil change around 60k. A few weeks later it started running rough and a low oil light came on. He took it to the dealer and it basically used all of its oil within 1k miles and lost compression in cylinder 3 or 5 (can't remember). That was the first tear down and partial rebuild. That was 30k miles and 12 months ago. About a month ago it started all over again. It started misfiring again with flashing CE light. Took it to the dealer and it had very little oil. They reset the ECM and advised to start using synthetic oil. That worked until this past weekend when it started missing and the CE light was flashing again.

    I haven't talked to my dad, but my mom said they ordered a new new engine block. So maybe they're replacing the entire short block, I don't know for sure, but from what my mom said, it will be nearly a complete tear down. From what both of my parents have said, Honda's customer service has been exceptional and far beyond anything they've experienced with Ford or GM.
  • trusso69trusso69 Posts: 68
    The new Accord uses 0W-20 synthetic oil; not sure when they started that. What oil viscosity was in your Dad's 2009 Accord V-6?
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,641
    edited March 2013
    I think it's 5w20, but I don't believe synthetic was recommended originally. The dealer switched him to synthetic a month or so ago saying that honda recommends it now.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    edited March 2013
    I'd switch back to a 5w20. Preferably a high-mileage oil as it has higher levels of zinc and other anti-wear additives. (Castrol GTX/High mileage) is a good choice, IMO.

    I started learning about oils about 7 or 8 years ago when I had an engine in my 60s Mercedes eat itself within six months of the EPA mandating lower levels of additives in oils. And it's gotten worse since then. This is all due to rules concerning catalytic converters and warranties on them. The additives protect your engines very very well, but they also are death to a catalytic converter. When oils were at the older 1600ppm standard, almost nobody's CAT would last close to 100K miles. So they lowered it to 1200ppm and more of them are making it to 100K. Soon it will be 800ppm or lower as they are aiming for mandating lifetime durability.

    So your CAT lasts for the life of the car. Too bad your engine won't.

    Note - oils sold in other countries don't follow this idiocy. It's why you rarely hear of engines dying from oil related issues overseas. a CAT is cheap to replace compared to the entire block.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,641
    edited March 2013
    Interesting. Despite the changes with motor oils you still don't see many engines failing early IMO. I've got 117k miles on my 07 Expedition and every oil change has been in the 4-6k mile range with whatever my local independent tire shop puts in it. I know they use the recommended 5w-20, but I think it's bulk mobile. Despite doing lots of heavy towing in hot weather it's never used a drop of oil.

    Most people don't pay attention to what oil goes into their engines yet it seems more cars are making it to 200k than ever. My MIL has almost 190k on her '05 Camry without any special care regarding oil. Like most, when the oil change light comes on, she takes it in for an oil change.

    I know what you mean regarding the cats. We purchased a new boat last year that has catalytic converters (thanks EPA) and it states in the manual that a specified synthetic oil must be used in order to protect cats.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,189
    edited March 2013
    Yes, I understand that there are power losses in the driveline when it comes to dyno testing, and that the figures are usually 25% lower at the wheels.

    I also know that the VW 2.0T is underrated. One magazine ventured to say that " it is the strongest 200 HP we have ever seen". Still... It tells me that the Germans are still more reputable than the Koreans. A 50 HP deficit is substantial. If it came in at 170 I would be fine with that. Cadillac also took a hit when it's 2.0T(270HP) was accused of being 40 HP short by C/D in a recent comparo against it's nemesis ; the BMW 528.I guess it is legal to advertise 270HP ; even if it's only between 5700 to 5701rpm. The next car I buy is going to be a step up to luxury sport sedans; and I will make sure it's numbers are vetted.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,189
    edited March 2013
    Hey, I really appreciate your thoughts on the K&N filter. The last thing I need is a damaged engine. However, I can't get over the fact that my '94 SHO was equipped with one from the factory. It ran for 150K w/o incident until I sold it.

    I see by your post that you have engine repair experience, so I consider your advice to be accurate/expert. Still, I read that the K&N was even better at filtering fine particulates, even when new. So, I will check into it further. The good news is I am not married to it. I can always just pop in a OEM type unit.
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,641
    I also know that the VW 2.0T is underrated.

    That or very good at getting most of the power to the ground. Regardless, I've sampled a few and they do indeed feel strong for their power rating. Probably has to do with having a broad powerband.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,668
    The K&N does not filter as well as OEM when first installed. That's the whole point - to allow more air at WOT. As the filter works it slowly fills in with particles such that it probably does filter just as well as OEM. But when that happens you're also not getting any more airflow than OEM either. Buy it for the sound or to avoid buying new ones but not for power.
  • marcus216marcus216 Posts: 78
    Just curious if anyone out there with a 2013 Honda accord with Hondalink has had audio issues. I have had my Honda Accord EXL V6 only a few days and I had an instance of a buzzing/static sound coming from the audio on any source. Even when I turned the audio off, I could hear the buzzing/static sound. When I turned the car off and re-started, the issue was resolved, as if restarting the engine allows the audio system to reset itself. I am wondering if this is due to the active noise cancellation system? I called m dealer and talked with the service manager and he told me that they have not seen this issue. I found this video on YouTube from a guy who has experienced the same thing. Interesting.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vV0Wq23Y9_M
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,189
    I bought it for the sound mostly. I did some more research. The way the K&N works is by channeling the air through multiple layers of cotton fiber. It is kind of like a folded sock with the hole at the front where the air comes in. Also, it is not dusty where I live (NOVA). My only concern would be spring pollen.

    It's not loud enough that it sounds like a boy-racer Civic Del-Sol with primer ground effects,neon lights underneath, formula one sized wing, stuffed with sub-woofers, and a trash can sized exhaust pipe. LOL.

    See funny commercial here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXhZqW-4vV8
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