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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,300
    In a C/D article on mid-size sedan's (6 car comparo May 2012), it was said that it is far harder to build a mid-size sedan for $25,000 than it is to build a $100,000, 500 hp super-car. Again, mid-size sedans have to be all things for (mostly) all people.

    Furthermore, most luxury sedans and many crossovers share their underpinnings with the mid-size sedans their company produces. Take the Camry. The Venza, Solara, Rav-4, Lexus RX-350 and 4 Lexus sedan models are all based on the Camry. With Toyota at least, the Camry IS the franchise. There has to be a robust platform with top notch power-trains and advanced electronic systems so the various companies do not have to re-invent the wheel on their more profitable vehicles. Of course this platform sharing has been done for ages. So, the consumer really does win when 75% of their mid-size sedan is designed to pass mustard in luxury vehicles costing far more.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    You are correct in most of your statement, except only one Lexus Cessna ( the ES) uses a platform based on a Toyota model ( the Avalon, which in its new form may or may not still be based on the same platform as the Camry, I think it is basically, but I am sure others will chime in). The othe IS and GS use a version of the engine, but nothing else the same as the Camry and the LS share no parts that I know of.
    Your point is still true though, it the midsized car has to be all things.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,781
    cski wrote:

    "With Toyota at least, the Camry IS the franchise. There has to be a robust platform...."

    Not sure I'd call the Camry platform robust. As the president of IIHS said, "Toyota engineers have a lot of work to do to catch up with the competition," including your Optima!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LNG7Nm9XDko
  • Sure the quality ebbs and flows from all the manufacturers over the years.
    As I posted I have owned all domestic vehicles, (and almost all Japanese Motorcycles). :). After some researching it seems customer support from the import manufacturers and dealers is consistently better. The term "they all do that" is not the correct answer for someone having issues with their vehicle. To each his own indeed but personally I'm buying an import this time.
  • marcus216marcus216 Posts: 78
    I looked at every midsized sedan before I settled on the 2013 Accord EXL V6. What surprised me the most about the new models from Ford, Nissan, Toyota, Hyundai, Kia, and even GM were the interiors. Materials have been vastly upgraded from past generations. For example, the driver's seat in the 2013 Nissan Altima SL was the most comfortable seat I have ever experienced in any car. My Honda has a great seat also. I love the perforated, soft leather, and upgraded materials throughout the cabin. the Ford Fusion interior also compared well to many luxury sedans. I was quite impressed with the interiors of most of the mainstream family sedans.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,781
    Congrats on your purchase!

    Yeah, I agree about the improved interiors.

    My 2008 Accord EXL is a very nice car, but when I test drove a 2013 Accord EXL it seemed very close to an Acura or Lexus to me....
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,896
    A reporter is looking for a car buyer who was approved for a car loan after their credit was dinged during the Great Recession. If you or someone you know was affected by the recession, but is now fighting to get back on his/her feet, and was recently approved for a car loan, please send your daytime contact info to pr@edmunds.com no later than Monday, 3/11/13 at 2 p.m. PT/5 p.m. ET.

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  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,300
    Was using Toyota as an example. There has to be a robust platform so the "various companies" do not have to reinvent the wheel...

    Correction on the ES..... It is based on the new Avalon for 2013 All data in my statement was based on major automotive magazines.

    The point was about platform sharing. It gets a better vehicle to the consumer that otherwise would not be possible unless the platform is shared with more profitable models. Also, selling 300,000 Camryoptmaltmafusionassat's helps a lot!! :)

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    It's good to see Honda got its Mojo back with the '13 Accord, and apparently, the '13 Civic as well???
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,300
    I like new Honda Accord as well. if it was available at the end of 2011, I would be driving one right now. It just has this X Factor of quality. I like the crisp lines of the exterior, I like the dash assembly with the 2 screens I like the IP gauge cluster, which is classic for the Accord 1 I can't figure out, is why Honda dozens have a competitive 100,000 mile powertrain warranty. That would have sealed the deal. I bet Honda would steal quite a few sales from Sonatas and Optima's if that was available.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,300
    edited March 2013
    I like new Honda Accord as well. if it was available at the end of 2011, I would be driving one right now. It just has this X Factor of quality. I like the crisp lines of the exterior, I like the dash assembly with the 2 screens; I like the IP gauge cluster, with it's classic slender needles. What I can't figure out is why Honda doesn't have a competitive 100,000 mile powertrain warranty. That would have sealed the deal. I bet Honda would steal quite a few sales from Sonatas and Optima's if that was available. Perhaps next time will be the right time and place to purchase one.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,781
    edited March 2013
    Hyundai started that 100k warranty about 10 years ago as move to get themselves back in the game. As you know, in the 80s and 90s the quality of Hyundai/Kia was far from a Honda of the era. But starting about the year 2000 Hyundai/Kia made a major push toward quality, and were getting closer to Honda and Toyota, but the question was how to let the US customer know about it—and so they went for the 100k warranty on the engine.

    Honda and Toyota moved to a degree, by moving their engine warranties up to 5/60 from 3/36.

    But have you heard of "Million Mile Joe"? He's a nut who somehow drove a million miles in an early 1990s Accord on the original engine. Most engines don't last nearly that long, not even Hondas. But Hondas engines are generally admired as the best in the biz, and so I really don't think you need to worry about your Honda engine much.

    But genuine HondaCare warranties are available at a reasonable price if you shop around.

    I'm probably going to get my new 2013 Accord EXL navi 4 cylinder today, and just for peace of mind I'm going to add a HondaCare 0 deductible 8 year 100k mile bumper to bumper for $960.

    Hyundai and Kia have made huge strides. And in terms of quality I think they are about the same as a Honda today.

    For that extra bit of engineering excellence, however, the little bit extra for a Honda is worth it to me. You just can expect to pay a little more to get the best.

    My 2 cents.

    There are obviously lots of great cars in the midsize segment—Fusion, Optima, Mazda6, etc. Each one has their good points, and we all get to enjoy our favorite.+++
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Motor Trend did a comparison between the Camry, Mazda6 and Accord. Interesting results...

    Motor Trend
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,690
    I lurk mostly in this forum. I know you are a big Honda fan & an Accord guy as well. I personally don't believe it's necessary to purchase an extended warranty for a Honda, especially a 4cyl Accord. I know the CVT is new tech & would surely be expensive to replace, but I truly believe in Honda as a company. 2 of the 3 cars in my garage are Hondas (2001 Prelude & 2011 Pilot). 100K miles is NOTHING. Good luck with your purchase!

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,300
    edited March 2013
    Yeah man.....million mile Joe was in one of my my latest issue of C/D! He bought it in 1996 from an old couple with 74k on the ODO, then racked up the miles.

    Something like 78 oil changes, 13 sets of brake pads, tons-o-tires, and a total of 2,000,2050 miles. The engine has never been opened. Thats a good thing, because if someone opened it, I think the contents would liquefy. LOL.

    Honda surprised him with an impromptu parade as he was accepting the key's to a 2012 from Ms Maine. It's good to be Joe!

    So, look guys; All we have to do is keep piling the miles on and maybe we get a free car!!! (subject to a $19,900 doc-prep). LMAO :shades:

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,781
    edited March 2013
    Yeah, they really like the Mazda6, which is a great car. I like Mazdas, and have owned a few myself over the years. But overall, I feel like Hondas are better cars.

    And look at the list prices. They were comparing a c. $32k Mazda6 with a c. $25k Honda Accord.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,781
    edited March 2013
    You might be right!

    I got an 8 year extended warranty on my 2002 Accord and never used it during the 8 full years I owned the car.

    I got an 8 year Hondacare on my 2008, and I haven't used that one either. They did fix some things (squeaky brake pads replaced free, etc.) under the regular warranty, but I have yet to use the extended for anything.

    But for the 2013 there is so much new technology that I want the peace of mind of the extended warranty.

    To list a few things, they have the new EarthDreams (silly name!) engine with direct injection, and then the all-new CVT, and then the cameras, touch screen, new HD navi, etc.

    You may be right, nycarguy, that I'm wasting my money, but for $960 it's worth it to me not to worry about my new Honda for the next 8 years....+++
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    I think other people have a hard time understanding how you could agree with both that Honda has made better cars, and seems higher quality, and still think you need an 8 year warranty that will never be used.

    The Honda probably generally costs a bit more than the Kia or Hyundai equivalent, but the idea is that you never have to use the warranty, whereas with the Korean makes you might be having a lot of warranty visits in that 100K mile warranty.

    You pay a bit extra for the Honda quality, but you make it up in having no hassles or problems or costs in keeping it running (maintenance excluded of course).

    To me, it would make more sense to buy a lesser brand and then get the extra 8 year warranty for peace of mind.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 230
    You pay a bit extra for the Honda quality, but you make it up in having no hassles or problems or costs in keeping it running (maintenance excluded of course)......

    I think honda does build quality cars, but they have their issues too. Ask a honda owner who was part of one of the class action suits over transmissions or the class action suit over premature brake wear or the current class action suit on the excess oil consumption on the 6 cyl VCM. With first time direct inject and the first use of cvt in the accord 4 cyl (first use of 6 speed auto in 6 cyl accord) I think investing in the extra warranty may be a very wise move.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    I agree...$1,000 for an extra 3 years 40k miles seems expensive; especially if you "believe" in the manufacturer.

    If the $'s are lying around doing nothing I'd feel more comfortable putting the $1k in a 5 year CD; ok....1.5% to maybe 2% isn't that great either, but at least you still have the funds to repair any problems (other than catastrophic fixes).

    I must say I personally don't "believe" in any of the manufacturers...I've seen people at my office take their 10 year old F150 to 330k miles (basic maintenance and repair) and I've seen the early Honda Odyssey problems hit people multiple times. I've had a new Audi that was more reliable than a new Honda...

    But I'm on my 3rd Honda now (in a long list of cars)...I have no love or hate for them. All cars cost a lot, depreciate a lot, always have something that is 'needed'; large or small...and nobody will give you want you want when its time to sell :)

    I'd rather have $1k than spend it on 'what if'...but I suppose it's like any insurance...peace of mind (I could go on all day about medical health premiums)
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,800
    "... I personally don't believe it's necessary to purchase an extended warranty for a Honda, especially a 4cyl Accord. ..."

    I purchased an extended warranty back when we bought my wife's 2002 Civic. It has paid for itself. We had a couple of electronic modules go bad, and something or other else I can't recall right now.

    In general it may not be used, but I always want to have full repair coverage for the life of the loan.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,010
    MT stated plainly in the article that the checklist they used to eveluate the cars contained none of the extra equipment they got on the Mazda so it wasn't given "extra points". The drivetrains, suspension, steering etc which was really what was being evaluated is the same on all trims of the Mazda. MT takes what it gets from the manufacturers to use for comparisions.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,300
    edited March 2013
    When I bought my car last year I weighed in all the pros and cons of the extended warranty; which included past experiences with repairs.

    Just an engine computer can cost upwards of $1500, and under many "powertrain" warranties are not covered, even though they control the powertrain. One repair on my last car involved replacing both the ECU and the BCU for a whopping $2200. It was covered under ext warr.

    I spent $950 on my new cars' extended warranty (2012 Optima EX), and I look at it this way...

    My car will be paid for in 5 years. Based on my current mileage, I will still have 5 more years and 40 k covered under the extended bump 2 bump warranty after it's paid for!! Also by then, I will have a new teen driver, who knows nothing about cars. Free roadside assistance, towing, and b-2-b coverage will comfort me every time she takes the car out. If I decide to sell it, it adds a lot of value to the new owner, and puts me in an improved negotiating position. (I have NEVER traded a car in. I always sell outright)

    So, how much is peace of mind worth? It is all about managing risk, and for $950 bucks, it takes a heck of a lot of risk out of the equation. Works for me, but not for everybody. To each his own. :)

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,690
    One repair on my last car involved replacing both the ECU and the BCU for a whopping $2200. It was covered under ext warr.

    What was your last car?

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Yes, to each his or her own. Most advice you see these days is to pass on the extended warranty. For most people, it is generally not worth it, especially given how reliable most cars have become. But if adding $1000 - 1500 to the price of the car isn't a big deal to you, and you like the thought of that extra dose of security, then by all means. Most people will not have unexpected $2200 repairs on every car they buy, so even if you are unlucky enough to have it happen on every other one, you would still be better off putting the money in the bank, or at least breaking even. But when you buy the insurance, that money is gone. In other words, you have already paid for a $1000 repair whether or not you ever need it. I have owned nearly 30 vehicles, and the only time I bought an extended warranty, I never used it.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,300
    Grand Cherokee Laredo V8. Had 3 young kids with car seats...so it was that or banished to a minivan. The Jeep drove fantastic.....I still miss it's AWD with mostly rear drive bias, and the view out of the back was fantastic.

    I bought a service contract on it and saved $7,700 in repairs, plus the contract amount of $1,200 was re-couped.

    It's Electronics were s***. Transmission too. Great cross country driver though. Took it to Buffalo like 10 times. Never left me stranded. 15 MPG :cry:

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    I would have bought a service contract on a Jeep too. Guess I was thinking more in terms of a Camry or Accord...
  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,651
    Guess I was thinking more in terms of a Camry or Accord...

    I tend to agree. I'm not big on service contracts, the odds are usually against the person buying the contract, but the odds certainly change with the vehicle being purchased.

    My in-laws bought an extended warranty on their 05 Camry and never used it. Heck it's at 190k miles and the only repair has been a wheel bearing.

    OTOH, my dad did not buy an extended warranty on his 09 Accord EX-L v6 and he's had extensive engine problems well after his factory warranty expired and Honda has been covering all his problems while including new loaner vehicles for him to drive. He has 90k miles on it and Honda is going to essentially rebuild the engine free of charge.
  • gene84gene84 Posts: 9
    I agree, it depends on what you buy. When purchasing my 2000 Honda Odessey Hondas and Toyotas had the lowest cost 100,000 mile/7-year extended warranties by far. My 2004 Toyota Prius has 213,000 miles and no problems (no belts, hoses, shocks, TX adjustment, nothing) except rear brakes at 200,000 miles because I forgot to release the emergency brakes. If you buy a Honda or Toyota you probably don't need an extended warranty.
  • mani_omani_o Posts: 6
    I really love the look and features of the new Accord but I'm scared of the transmission in that car. Every time I tell someone I like it a family member or friend talks about how much they spent to get their tranny fixed. How does Honda get away with getting top reliability picks with so many cars having this issue? I get all cars have their problems but when I hear the same issue over and over from multiple sources, red flags start to go up with me.
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