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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • targettuningtargettuning Posts: 1,371
    I'd be glad to even though a Civic doesn't qualify for this discussion not exactly being mid sized. I bought the car new in Nov 2005 with about 9 miles or so showing. On the drive home from the dealer I noticed a faint noise from the right rear suspension on some types of bumps. I blew it off because this was a Honda after all (our first). My wife took over regularly driving the car to work and I only fueled, washed, and maintained it driving it short distances for those jobs. While I did start to notice an increase in the severity of the noise by July 2006 even my wife who wouldn't notice if she was dragging the transmission for 1/2 mile (an overstatement to be sure)said "there is a noise in the car. I already knew a problem existed and researched for any Honda TSB's but didn't find one for this. I finally took it back to the selling dealer in late July where an inspection found not only was the right rear shock bone dry (all fluid leaked out) which is what I suspected but additionally the left side shock was leaking badly. Both were replaced under warranty BUT I had to take off a 1/2 day from work,wait around etc. That cleared up one noise but made things quiet enough I could hear another which was a "drone" from the engine at around 1500 RPM in high gear. Honda issued a TSB for this one much later and I got the fix which worked. Now, yet another noise, this one in the right front while hitting certain types of bumps has been identified as a faulty motor mount by Honda. This one is pending because I have not had the time to take it in for repair. Additionally, the interior plastic is very prone to scratches especially, as design would have it, near the armrests/door pulls where one is sure to blindly grasp to shut the door resulting in many scratches/scrapes there. But interior wise the worst problem by far is the fact the cloth upholstry material is wearing on the driver seat cushion bolster. The woven? in pattern has all but disappeared on a 3 x 2 inch or so patch where our butts slide on entering and leaving the car. Currently the car has around 8,700 miles and I feel while it has not had all the problems 2006 Civics CAN have there have been enough relatively minor problems to send me packing back to Hyundai. Scroll through the service bulletins for this year/model where at last count over a dozen exist and some are pretty "bad" e.g. about 7 ea. oil sealing bolts scattered around the engine that don't seal resulting in partial engine teardown for replacement. Power steering leaks, engine immobilizer problems resulting in no-start conditions etc. Nope whomever said reputation doesn't sell cars is wrong...it sold me a Honda. My first inclination was a 2006 Sonata but that is another story.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    "Why can't an Accord owner/lover state he thinks the Accord is best in its class? Its not like its an outlandish statement."

    Then why can't a Fusion/Sonata/Mazda owner state they think thier sedan is the best in its class?? This is not an "outlandish" statement either.. :sick:
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    "their "intelligent" decision on that fact then why does the Camry consistently outsell the Accord"

    Same way I guess McDonalds sells more burgers than Burger King I guess.. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,694
    More precisely...

    * What is the sales per dealer? (Per-store sales is an important metric in the sales business. Toyota has more dealers than Honda.)

    * How many are sold to fleets? (Many more Camrys are sold to fleets than Accords.)
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    lean towards the Altima

    I thought I'd test drive the 07 Altima this weekend. I've only sat in it and played with the controls a bit, but I agree - what a nice ride.

    I like it much more than the Maxima - what's up with that funky Maxima grill BTW?

    I think the high end Altima cannibalizes the Maxima sales.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Lets try this one again..http://www.jdpower.com/press-releases/pressrelease.aspx?id=2007088

    No comments? Looks like Ford is doing pretty darn well.. I'm going to have to keep this link around and spread the word. :shades:
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    I think the average age of the Camry is higher than the Accord's. The Accord is also a more athletic ride which probably appeals to a younger driver.

    Both have the advantage of buyers walking on the lot, look at some colors, and saying "I'll take that one" more than most other makes.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    Read many of the previous posts. You're late to the IQS party around here.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    An interesting post, target. Thanks for the info. I guess it illustrates that even Hondas can have problems. It's always been my contention that any make or model can have problems regardless of surveys or testings or ratings.

    We also considered the Hyundai Sonata but one dealer in our town owns the franchises for Hyundai, Mazda, Honda and Nissan while Sherwood Ford, Lincoln, Mercury has a sterling reputation and has been excellent to deal with. We own a 1997 Thunderbird and a 2000 Focus station wagon in addition to the 2007 Fusion.

    Eventually, all cars end up going back to the dealer for something, even if it is just oil changes or tire rotations. The dealer's excellent reputation was a big factor in our purchase of a Fusion. The bold, distinctive styling also played a large part.

    We've only had the car six months and 3,420 miles but, so far (knock on wood) it's yet to have a single squeak, rattle or thump. There has been zero recalls and not a single Technical Service Bulletin (TSB) has applied to our car. We sure hope this trend continues for the years to come.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Any car can have problems. You take your chances. See this post as an example of the irony of it all.

    bdkinnh, "BMW 5-Series Sedans" #11855, 6 Jun 2007 10:08 am
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I believe it is currently possible to get a Maxima cheaper than a well optioned V6 Altima where the stickers can get above $30k pretty easily. Talk about 'cannibalization'!
    While I pretty much stay away from subjective styling issues - to me, it is one 'pretty' car.
  • pulgopulgo Posts: 400
    What do you think about the new Nissan Sentra 2007?

    It has the same interior volume as the 2007 Accord (within 1 cubic ft).

    I has a better price, better fuel economy, great ride, less prestige and unknown reliability and probably lower resale value.

    Safety wise it's got 6 airbags, ABS, EBD, etc, etc, even tire pressure monitors.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Safety wise it's got 6 airbags, ABS, EBD, etc, etc, even tire pressure monitors

    Yeah but they are all optional (at least ABS/EBD) and TPM is going to be standard for everyone in the next 2 years as a federal mandate, IIRC.
  • pulgopulgo Posts: 400
    Here in Canada you can't get one without ABS and EBD.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Any car can have problems
    kd - of course, and likely in direct correlation to the the complexities of the car in the first place. BMWs problem is not that they don't build the best cars in the world, it is more related to the systems they build into those cars, required to make them that way.
    Murphy's law - the more complicated anything is, the more likely it is to break - A Toyota Avalon should never be as reliable as a Corolla, a Lincoln MKZ should never be as reliable as a Fusion etc etc.. There are exceptions to all 'rules', of course - but as a generality, something that is true in a whole lot more things than just cars?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    "Why can't an Accord owner/lover state he thinks the Accord is best in its class? Its not like its an outlandish statement."

    Then why can't a Fusion/Sonata/Mazda owner state they think thier sedan is the best in its class?? This is not an "outlandish" statement either..

    Uhh, they can last I checked ;). We each buy our own "best-in-class."
  • waygrabowwaygrabow Posts: 210
    Let's say that the "Acme Auto Company" produces a competent mid-size sedan with a 225 HP engine. Hypothetically, Acme has new technology which will allow it to produce a more efficient engine. They can either re-engineer the engine to produce 50 more horsepower with the present gas mileage or keep the 225 horsepower and increase average mileage by 5 mpg. Which alternative would interest you more as a potential Acme-brand buyer?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    To me? The mileage. I drive a 166 hp car and a 130 hp car. 225 would be excess to me, much less 275!
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,435
    The Sentra is quite roomy, but it is 6 cuft less than an Accord. Honda reports different numbers for sunroof models and that lowers it closer to the Sentra.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,435
    No question the mileage. 225 is way more than enough. Anything more is really just about bragging rights, not driveability.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,694
    Personally I would not buy a Sentra based on its looks alone. I think the Versa is a much better value (and also has mid-sized interior room, albeit barely), and there are other compacts-with-midsized-interiors and even bona fide midsized (even full-sized) cars that would cost less than a Sentra, including Mazda6i, Optima, Sonata and sometimes (depending on incentives) Fusion and Milan. So, no thanks on the Sentra.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Let's say that the "Acme Auto Company" produces a competent mid-size sedan with a 225 HP engine. Hypothetically, Acme has new technology which will allow it to produce a more efficient engine. They can either re-engineer the engine to produce 50 more horsepower with the present gas mileage or keep the 225 horsepower and increase average mileage by 5 mpg. Which alternative would interest you more as a potential Acme-brand buyer?

    This did actually come into play in my case. My old car (same make and model) was smaller and lighter, and a 4cyl was the only option. 140hp was adequate most of the time (could have used more power on the highway). 12 years later the car had grown considerably and a V6 was available. The fact that I could get 100 more hp, and still get the same mileage as the old car, made it a no-brainer for my driving style. I picked the extra power, thegrad picked the mileage. We both got what we wanted, so it's all good. :D
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    This did actually come into play in my case. My old car (same make and model) was smaller and lighter, and a 4cyl was the only option. 140hp was adequate most of the time (could have used more power on the highway). 12 years later the car had grown considerably and a V6 was available. The fact that I could get 100 more hp, and still get the same mileage as the old car, made it a no-brainer for my driving style. I picked the extra power, thegrad picked the mileage. We both got what we wanted, so it's all good.

    Bingo. We each picked what suited us.

    The only time I ever need more power in my 130 hp '96 Accord is passing above 60 MPH. Around town, it is perfectly adequate. In my 166 hp '06, I've never "needed" more. It's so quiet relative to my 96, I don't mind winding it up to 5,500 RPM if I really feel compelled to take off.

    I got better power AND better mileage! :) (although 70-80 horsepower less than elroy). My highway mileage is 8 MPG better in my new car thanks to iVtec and a 5-speed Auto!
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Bingo. We each picked what suited us.

    and thats what it all boils down to. Anybody who wants to proclaim any car the best nees to keep in mind, they are in a pretty small group. Even the best selling midsize sedan (the camry) only has about 15% of the midsize market. So, for every 100 people who buy a midsize sedan, 85% don't think the camry is the best.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    15% thought the Camry was the best value, and actually bought one. Some people think the Camry is the class leader, but aren't willing to pay it's price (so they buy something else). Don't you think, if all midsize cars were the same price, the Camry would get a higher percentage of buyers? I would still not buy a Camry, but I think many people would. I think the Accord would also get a higher percentage, if you could get one for the same price as say, a Malibu.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    But, part of the "class-leader" part comes from its price. If not, it wouldn't be limited to the class (a.k.a. Acura TL, Lexus ES350, etc...)

    Price has to be included in my opinion, if not, we blur the "class" issue.
  • scape2scape2 Posts: 4,119
    Got to ride in the Milan that was modified. I know some here debate as to whether this guy knows what he is doing. The car is definitely faster than a factory Milan v6. The power is immediate, the engine grabs and seems to spin up quicker I asked him if he ever dyno'd the car and he plans on it. Once again, its a Milan V6 Premier with all the options. He added full dual exhaust, intake air system, chipped it, some lighter performance wheels/tires. The car was not a rip roaring V8. I have test driven a Camry V6, I believe this car would give the Camry a good run for its money.. Is it all worth it? I don't know?? He does this for fun and as a hobby.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    When price comes into the equation, we are talking about "best value", not "class leader". Two totally different things. "Class leader" means the highest selling car, and the car regarded as the best car in it's particular class, irrespective of price. If the Altima comes out with a new special edition that is more expensive than the highest priced Camry, does that mean it's the new class leader? Not by my definition, because it's not out selling the Camry. Sure, the "Class leader" will usually fetch a higher price, but that's not why it's a class leader.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Well, I've heard it somewhere before, but getting into "best-in-class" can mean a lot of things.

    I mean, the guy who had a 4.0 GPA looks like the best in class, while in fact, the guy with a 3.5 GPA and lots of extra-curriculars and out-of-class work experience gets the job done better. (showing my age here!)

    I say that in a roundabout way to say, it may be instinctive to say the car with the best numbers is tops, while in fact, when it comes to getting the job done, others do it better, having fun along the way (just like in school!).

    I think (again "I") that best-in-class is still individual.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    Power. Hands down.

    Most automakers have done this for years. Bigger, revised versions of engines with more power and the same (or improved) fuel economy.
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