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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • suydamsuydam Posts: 980
    The new Honda has a brand new transmission so your friends are talking about something else. Regardless, Honda has an excellent reliability rating.
  • marcus216marcus216 Posts: 78
    I have had 6 (5 Accords and 1 Odyssey) Honda automobiles over the past 20 years or so and I put a minimum of 80,000 miles on each and never had a transmission problem of any kind. I just purchased a new 2013 Accord V6. And I am very happy with my choice. It rivals many luxury sedans in terms of comfort, features, amenities, and materials. Light years better than the last generation Accord.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    I think you take a risk with any new automobile purchase...but with that being said ALL are much more reliable (on average) than the previous generation.

    A few years ago I was comparing JD power stats between Audi and Toyota. At that time you could buy a new Audi with the same reliability as a 5 year old Toyota; which in my mind was not too bad. Of course the newer Toyota was ranked even higher.

    The Accord tranny is a CVT; I think their first (in NA anyway). There are a few designs out there and I'm not certain the difference between them. The only thing I've heard about the Accord CVT is what I've read (it was positive).

    I've had a few friends all need new transmissions (Odyssey) but that didn't stop me from buying 2 Hondas after that. Both were 4 cyl (1 was a manual).

    Nissan has offered CVTs for a few years...and have offered extended warranties after complaints regarding high repair costs after the warranty has ended.

    I'm not certain of the very-long-term reliability/maintenance costs.

    Originally CVTs were only in 4cyl cars; there was some issue with them handling torque. Audi was the 1st to offer a 6cyl with CVT and I don't know if they 'discovered' some design/technique to handle the torque.

    I've always liked Honda's with 4cyl (which I purchased in Dec)...if I were to purchase today I'd do it with the CVT without worry...but I'm not basing that off of any facts...just gut-feeling :)
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,284
    I read the entire article, and I drove a new M-6. It's a great car. No doubt it handles better than others, including my Optima. The thing is ; that for $26,900 I can get a Optima Turbo. For the Mazda's GT price of $31k they better bolt on a turbo and dial up another 100 horsepower. Then the GT will be earned. Right now all the GT means is "Good Tires". I LOVE the 6.....why did Mazda not offer more zoom-zoom????

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    One word = MPG. The diesel is coming this fall.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,781
    Just got mine last night. Wonderful car so far. Almost everything is improved compared to our 2008 Accord EXL navi 5MT, which we're keeping.

    The technology in this car is great, but a bit daunting to figure out.

    Anyway, best wishes to all searching for a midize car. As most people here say, there are a lot of good choices.

    Safe driving everyone...
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    This might smart a little, cski, but just sharing with you out loud my thoughts when I read your post..Honestly...do you really think that when comparing vehicle potential reliability, refinement etc and overall satisfaction levels, it is a dead even comparo to put Kia up against Mazda? I will admit they have come a LONG way in the last few years...note I did not even say decade. That was deliberate and IMO, accurate. You can't even go back 10 years and say they were a force to be reckoned with!

    And here is another reason my opinion may seem a little rigid and not very tolerant or complimentary to them yet..
    I still read where many owners have been burned by legitimate wty claims, in circumstances where Kia or Hyundai refused because the owner hadn't been in for every little service stamp for brake inspection or some such other carp that few other brands...the ones with more average length warranties..don't have. If you are going to offer a 100000 mile wty (and of personal note and frustration here in Canada, that big 10/100000 is only 5/62000. They call it 5yr/100000km and have never yet been able to properly justify to anyone here who calls them on it, other than blow smoke up our collective butts, as to why the USA gets the better wty. We even pay a LOT more for the same car here.)..anyway, if you're going to offer what appears to be a really impressive wty and if it really IS truly marketed as good value, then why:

    a) make it non-transferable?

    and

    b) make owners jump through unnecessary, (but usually expensive) maintenance hoops (or use other feeble excuses) to not cover their claim?

    I think far too much emphasis is placed on their wty as the value-added perk that tips the scale in their favour (favor) when really, in so many other respects the rest of the car has very real annoyances that wreak of cheapness. Like poor audio systems. There is no excuse for this in this day and age. And rust! Gosh I have seen some Magentis' running around that actually look worse than a 2002 Protege 5, and as we all know, they did have an issue..

    And while we are putting cards on the table here so-to-speak..do you think that it is a mere coincidence that Mazda always gets the handling nod, even when compared to their stiffest perceived competition..that being probably Honda?? Practically no matter which auto mag of the day tests, or how many years you wanna go back, for at least 20 years+, Mazda has always done something different when designing and building their suspensions. They deliver crisp responsiveness, but do it without making it harsh. Do you think that is easy (read cheap/more economical) to do, or do you think that the suspension components in both the Hyundai/Kia and the Mazda are of equal value/complexity? Hope you don't mind if I answer for you..no! No they're not! There usually are no free-rides when building and designing a car. If you're gonna be a copy-cat..then it takes years and years of c/cing to start getting it so right you actually deserve to be considered on equal ground when comparing..and in the real world..sometimes it takes 60-80k (or even more dramatically, 120000) miles to really show which one has the better staying power...but one of the big differences is...the Mazda (in this example) is gonna feel a whole lot better behind the wheel, enroute to getting to those 120000 miles in its backpocket and tighter still to boot..

    Will Kia and Hyundai ever be good as Mazda is now? Probably, if they don't let happen to them what happened in 1989 era, and/or if Mazda screws up in some respects like they did in 02 to 06, then who knows, the Koreans could pass 'em..
    But, IMO, they are in catch-up mode right now with Mazda/Honda/Nissan/Subaru and still will be for a good number of years yet..

    Kia/Hyundai...(and the other Asians) if ya REALLY want to impress me..make your rust wty as rock solid as VW's is...
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,284
    I read an article about New York area taxi drivers think very highly of the Prius. Something about it being unkillable. I knew that an extended warranty on my Jeep was a good idea. Not so much on Accord. On my Kia? Yeah, for the right price. I still came out ahead. There was still a tiny bit of doubt about Kia's reliability.

    I just had my 15k oil change Thursday. One of the rubber bump-stops on the trunk lid broke off and the center console latch needed adjusted/tightened due to heavy use. Both problems taken care of free.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,723
    edited March 2013
    A couple of weeks ago, I brought home a 2013 Fusion Titanium.
    So far, I haven't even put 200 miles on it, but I hope to be able to provide more observations as I put some miles on it.
    It's my second Fusion. I bought the first one in 2008 and had it for about 3 years.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    Mazda owner - "I love my car".

    Hyndai/Kia owner - "I love my warranty".

    Actually I think Hyundai/Kia make fine cars for the price. But you are right about the others. A number of years ahead in engineering.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    I love both my Hyundais. :) The ten-year warranty is nice too. But I haven't had to use it much at all on my 9-year-old Elantra (which is still in warranty after all that time, imagine that!) and not yet on my 2013 Sonata. Has that powerful yet economical 2.4L GDI engine. Let's see, when did the other mid-sizers have something like that available--was it 3+ years ago as on the Sonata, since the other automakers are so far ahead in engineering? No? Interesting...

    Mazda owners HAVE to love their cars instead of their warranties since there isn't much to love on that score. ;) And they are fine cars, especially that new Mazda6. A puzzle why they don't sell better than they do.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    Just cause you've been lucky with your Hyundais doesn't make them representative. ;) That engine has a lot of horses but it doesn't seem to be any faster to 60 than the rest of the pack so it makes me wonder still about their HP ratings. Good cars though. I almost bought one when we bought our 2007 Mazda6 but the buttoned down steering/suspension just won out the day. Oh, and we didn't use our warranty either but it is gone now. :sick: However, knock on wood, we have had no problems whatsoever and it is going on 95k miles. :shades:

    What I can't understand is that there is no thread on the Mazda6 forum for the 2014 and nobody over there is even talking about it. Mazda is advertsiing the heck out of the 3 and the CX-5 but I haven't seen one ad specifically about the 6. I think the new 6 matches or betters any other midsize sedan in just about any measurement except maybe the center display on the dash. It's a little small but from what I've read that may be one of the first changes they make on the 2015 or even when they bring the deisel over this fall.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,284
    Some people have good luck with X brand, and others don't. Some like Hondas, some Toyota. Owning a Kia doesn't mean I love ALL Kia's. The Optima looks good to me. Before I bought it, I did research and then made a choice. The new Accord, and the new M6 were not available in December 2011.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited March 2013
    I also think the Optima is a great looking car. And I also like its office..but of course the office only involves looking forward. The fun stops there unfortunately..

    I still haven't seen a new 6 in person, but it sure does present well online.

    I also think the new Accord is an aesthetic improvement over the last two versions.

    I find it interesting that more than one manufacturer has reservations when offering bigger power with a CVT. The recurring theme seems to be that they must not stand up when presented with those extra levels of torque...Honda only offering it with the 4..Nissan's uses a belt with the 4, steel with the 6..etc

    I commend Mazda for offering a proper 6 speed auto. Combined with a 4 cylinder should provide for good longevity too. And I hear it is quite a gem of a tranny..
    Also impressive is that Mazda has managed the best fuel economy, (I presume due to utilizing the most torque at the lowest revs, compared to Honda's probably very sweet but much higher strung revver) by resisting the probable temptation to use a CVT in it also. Given its potential as it stands now, I would guess that had they taken that high CR Skyactive with its exceptional low rev torque numbers, and teamed it with a CVT they could have extracted even more impressive FE numbers. But wisely, they forfeited 1.5 to 2 and maybe even as much as 3 city mpg, and offered the auto equipped car with a proper driver's 6 sd auto. What a win win, cuz even so, they still retained the FE nod.

    When it arrives with the diesel, and if Mazda decides to do an AWD with the diesel, but still offer that package in humbler trim levels, I could see it quickly rising to the top of people's; even those who were not even considering a mid-sizer, short list.

    Furthermore, Mazda needs to be the first Asian brand to compete with VW's 12 year rust wty. What better way to attract back previously loyal customers who are smarting still over having one of the rusty ones? And gain new customers who love the idea of VW's great wty, but have more perceived confidence in the Mazda's (Asian) reliability potential..
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    and if Mazda decides to do an AWD with the diesel

    Why would that be such a great thing? VW doesn't do it and it would hurt FE which is part of the draw of diesel in the first place. It has front wheel drive which is OK in the snow belt and from a sporty driving aspect it doesn't seem like AWD and diesel go together that well.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited March 2013
    You are suggesting that diesel and sporty do not go hand in hand?

    Let's enter a Rally..you in your gas job 2WD, me with my AWD diesel..I'll give you half the laps or mileage headstart, and all specks of my snow dust will still be grounded and aging before you are in sight of the finish line.

    So the half laps headstart isn't enough you say? Ok, so you get AWD too, and we both leave at the same time...I'm still gonna clean the track up with ya in the diesel.

    I have a feeling you've never driven a performance oriented AWD turbo diesel then? Boy do you have a treat to look forward to...and also would be surprised by the number of diesel owners who look for performance AND fuel economy. With the diesel you can have both. With gas if you have one, you know you aren't gonna have the other, especially when AWD is part of the equation.

    And, I'll never understand why some people insist that FWD is just fine and nobody needs AWD..obviously if you don't get it, you don't and never have needed it!! What is so hard to grasp there?

    And if you're going to have AWD, would it not be prudent to help offset the extra fuel costs of AWD by powering it with a diesel? I did not say only offer AWD with the diesel..sheesh... Again..what is so hard to grasp?
    Surely you are not suggesting that you want your cake and eat it too? i.e. Have AWD without any fuel penalty whatsoever?

    Sorry..I didn't know you were kidding.. :confuse:

    edit- It has cost VW sales for not doing it. If AWD wasn't gaining popularity, it would not be found in greater vehicle configurations and price-points every year. What is missing though is the availability of it in lower trims, which I already covered. And don't under estimate the number of people who would like to have AWD, but don't for these three common reasons..
    - it is an extra dollar hit..always
    - it does cost a fuel penalty whether burning oil or gas
    - that dollar hit is compounded by manufacturers foolishly (and greedily for the customers that can anti up anyway) positioning the diesel and/or AWD options in only the highest trim levels which are already at a premium price

    ..so many opt out before even getting outta the gate..
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    edited March 2013
    Sorry, don't agree. For the Mazda6 application it would be expensive and a fuel hit when high MPG is plainly the direction Mazda is going with the new Mazda6.

    No, I haven't raced a performance turbodiesel and have no desire to, just like 99.9% of the people that would be buying the new Mazda6. I don't think Mazda will see a business case for a diesel AWD model. I didn't say that NOBODY would want one or that there was some law against it, just that IMO not enough would want one to justify them marketing it. Could be wrong but just don't see it.

    I'm not underestimating demand in the market for AWD but I'm not overestimating it either. Most of the AWD applications on sedans are on luxury brands where a little extra cost and a couple of MPGs are not that big of deal and they are usually RWD biased except for Audi. Only two out of all the mainstream brands offer AWD on their family sedans. And we are talking family sedans here, not race cars.

    BTW, could you please tone it down a little on the "hard to grasp" stuff? Just trying to have a cordial discussion here.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    Yes, I must just be lucky with my 3 Hyundais, I'm sure all the rest of them are horribly unreliable. :P I must have also been unlucky with my 2000 Mazda 626, which started self-destructing after about 8 years, and my Mazda MPV, which started self-destructing after 7 years. I'm sure all other Mazdas are totally reliable, long-term. ;)

    I saw the 2014 Mazda6 at the auto show today and it's a stunner, especially in the two colors they had on the floor, a steel blue and red. IMO the top car in the class now just based on interior/exterior styling, and the folks at MT obviously think it drives pretty well too. Bigger than I need in my next car, but if I were looking for a new mid-sizer I'd definitely have the base model with 6MT at the top of my list, along with the Accord LX with the 6MT.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,284
    Lol.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Ya, ok, sorry..

    If I can nutshell my thinking..

    I see this as an opportunity..for someone..

    I've said before that even Kia or Hyundai should venture into those waters..the waters being..an AWD car, not SUV..that would provide car-like handling and ride and economy, which you can't get any SUV to match. And the best way to mitigate or offset the extra running expense of AWD (which is also a torque robber) is to go diesel. It just makes so much much sense to me. But to offset the extra cost of diesel AND the AWD hit, they need to offer it in a base type car, which I just can't imagine how that is so hard for these guys to imagine?

    NOBODY is doing it over here, unless you count Subaru and it doesn't look like they are going to do the diesel thing either, so people are still left for the extra per mile running costs, and noticeably lethargic urge cuz the gas jobs just don't excel when extra work has to be done.

    It's wide-open mkt for one of 'em..I feel it in my bones.

    While off topic, I've also said that Kia/Hyundai should be the first to offer a diesel 2WD and 4x4 small p/u..we KNOW there is a mkt for that and cuz they're dragging their heels..probably Ford will be the first? (using...ironically enough..probably a Mazda engine) since Dodge is already probably getting their V6 diesel to mkt in a half ton but full sized p/u.
    But I digress..people can't buy what isn't offered..
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,006
    Looks like some Hyundai owners can't take some good natured kidding. ;)

    No car is perfect, no brand is perfect by any means. I'm sure sooner or later something will break on our old Mazda and even your Hyundais will probably have something go wrong. Heck, in the old days, by 95k miles, most cars would have had many problems already. It's a testament to just how good all these cars have gotten in the last 10 years or so.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,284
    1) The new Nissan Altima 3.5 and the Pathfinder 3.5 both have CVT's.

    2) The Optima is offered with a diesel in Europe. A 1.7 with 134 hp and 244 lb-ft. There is talk of offering a higher power version in the US. (160hp).

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,728
    I can take kidding; it's when facts are ignored in deference to hearsay and generalizations not based on fact that I scratch my head.

    Actually had something break on my 9-year-old Elantra... HVAC fan appears to be kaputt. Took it in today for replacement. That's it as far as non-wear parts failing in nine years. Not too bad IMO, especially given that car was designed before Hyundai got onto its quality bent.
  • Just wanted to comment on drivability of these two.
    We own a 2011 Sonata 2.0T. First off it's a great car over all without going into all the details. The one thing that I cannot stand is the steering. From day one it had the infamous "left pull". After many attempts by the dealer to align and rotate and exchange the tires it came down to replacing the front struts. They also preformed a update to the steering. Just drove it to and from Chicago, while it still tracks straight the over all feel is still numb, unresponsive. Yes it has electronic steering and lack of feel is a common complaint with these systems.
    I have driven 3 different 2014 Mazda 6's and it is far more engaging, especially when pushed hard.
    Also both have firm/sport suspensions but the 6 is much less harsh over road seams etc. The 18" low profiles do not help the Sonata's ride but even with 16" rims and snow tires it does not match the more composed Mazda. Granted Mazda has had a couple more years to develop the 6 and I hear a re-fresh is coming from Hyundai.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,781
    I read somewhere that an all-new Sonata is due in early 2014.

    Mazdas are known for good steering feel. I think they use an unusual hybrid system of electric and hydraulic.

    Just got a new 2013 Accord EXL, which also has electric steering in this generation. It doesn't have quite the feel of our 2008 Accord, which has hydraulic steering, but still it's pretty darn good. And the handling is actually slightly better on the new Accord than on the old one imho.

    On one of our daily commutes, a c. 14 mile drive of c. 70% hwy and 30% city, we seem to be getting about 35 mpg on the 2013 Accord. With the 2008 Accord making the same drive we usually got about 27 mpg. Don't know if that's a fluke or not, but if we're really getting 8 more mpg that's a big jump, esp. considering the new car is pretty much just as big on the inside.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,284
    EPS has been numb on almost every review I have read in the past year. Including the new Cayman and the new 3 series, which is heracy inthose circles. It is going to take more than one model year to get it just right.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • The 2014 Mazda 6 has only electric PS. The Transmission is a hybrid, maybe that's what you were thinking of? The Sonata is a great car, with the twin scroll turbo when you floor it you better have it pointed in the right direction :surprise: I just wish the steering wasn't so flighty.
    I did test drive the new Accord EX and Sport, nice cars. For myself I am leaning towards the new 6 for my next long term ride.
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