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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    has grown to much for my taste also. My next vehicle will be more the size of a Focus/Jetta sized vehicle. I am reading more about the new 2010/11 Focus and it too is growing just a bit in size. I have to ask why? Mid-size needs to stay mid-size. My predictions are the V6 in mid-size sedans are going to go by the way side in about 10 years. The only way you are going to be able to get a V6 is to have a "special edition" or an SS badging/model/trim level.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    My predictions are the V6 in mid-size sedans are going to go by the way side in about 10 years.

    I think just the opposite. If the Civic, Elantra, Corolla, etc. get much larger, they will probably have a V6 option.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I don't think V6 for midsize sedans is going away any time soon in the US. Not that I understand why some feel that a 175ish HP 4 cylinder is not enough.
  • oldcemoldcem Posts: 309
    Drive a lot on mountainous interstates while listening to the engine scream at high RPMs trying to maintain speed and you'll understand. One of my midsizers has a 3.5 Liter V6, the other has a 4.2 Liter V8 - both get decent fuel economy driving the interstates here, and, handle the hills with no problem.

    Regards:
    Oldengineer
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Drive a lot on mountainous interstates while listening to the engine scream at high RPMs trying to maintain speed and you'll understand. One of my midsizers has a 3.5 Liter V6, the other has a 4.2 Liter V8 - both get decent fuel economy driving the interstates here, and, handle the hills with no problem.

    Having grown up in a mountainous area myself, and understanding that a modern 4 cylinder engine is designed to rev higher (which can be seen from the horsepower/torque curves), I am pretty used to the engine reving a bit.
    The 1.8 l Escorts seemed fine, as did the 2.2 l Accord and the small V6 (2.5 l) Contour. The V6 in the Caravan and the Sienna had the most trouble.

    Locally hwy 154 was a pass through the mountains, and trips to Mammoth and Tahoe or Yosemite involved a lot mountain driving. Even just going to LA required traversing the Conejo grade, and Cuesta grade is just north of San Luis Obispo.

    A 4 valve/cylinder motor is more effective when its flowing more air. To flow more air, the revs need to be higher...this is what gave rise to complaints about no low end torque (and why variable valve timing is important on these vehicles to address that).
  • joe97joe97 Posts: 2,248
    Ford Fusion SE
    Honda Accord EX-L
    Mazda 6 i Touring

    Details and results here
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I think there is an irrational fear of even modestly high rpm (like 3000-4000) amongst Americans (or at least Wisconsinites). It is understandable, if one is driving something like my old minivan with it's 3.8L push rod engine, which has lots of torque at low rpm and makes frightening noises if you floor it. But in my more modern 2.3L I-4, it does not make frightening noises or anything even at the ~6500 rpm redline and it sees that from time to time.

    Even when I pull away from a light at a modest ~3000 rpm, I seem to be maybe about 1/2 mile down the road in the time the other cars cover about 1/4 mile. When I am not first in line, I find the typical driver accelerates at a rate that I achieve at barely over 2000 rpm.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    If I use even moderate throttle my wife thinks the car will blow up. I was merging onto a divided freeway (2 lanes each direction) with traffic going 70 and was about to merge doing 65 when I glanced back and saw a car just behind me in the lane I was about to merge into. I knew he was probably about to slow down, so if I had slown down that wouldn't work, so I just floored it (loaner Lincoln LS while the Aviator was in the shop) and went from 65 to 85 in a blink, then backed off to 70. My wife thought we were about to die (literally). Just because I accelerated quickly from 65 to 85 in the daytime on a straight, level dry road. Of course she has no problem cruising at 85 in the Edge. I think a lot of people are scared of the engine noise.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Thank you for being willing to accelerate, rather than forcing others to brake. I am so annoyed by people who will pull out in front of me, when there is insufficient space for their normal turtle-esque acceleration and even in that situation they will not accelerate any faster (Pulling out is fine there is plenty of room if they would just step on the #%& gas pedal.) It is amazing that they would rather risk being rear-ended, rather than to accelerate rapidly. If they want to be turtles, they should wait until they have like a mile of clear road so that they have enough time to get up to speed.

    This is one reason that we have over-powered engines in mid-size sedans. I think many buy a ~250 HP (at say 6000 rpm) V6, but never run it over 3000...which means, at most, they are using 125 HP.
  • madpistolmadpistol Posts: 126
    I hate people that get high-horsepower cars and don't use them. I mean, if you're going to get a V6, use the throttle when passing, don't baby the thing. If you don't use all of that V6 power EVER, do all of us a favor; get rid of that V6 and join everyone else in a I4 sedan. Then you'll appreciate the full power of that V6 a little bit more.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    My old 92 Accord 4 cylinder had 140hp, and the power was adequate most of the time (it would out accelerate my brother's V8 Bonneville). Only when merging on the interstate, and passing on rural roads, that I found the power lacking. The V6 in the 03 makes these maneuvers so much easier. I also like the smooth quiet operation around town, and the total lack of vibration at stop signs, the V6 provides. It's nice not to have to floor it, to get good acceleration. To me, a car can never have too much power, and considering many luxury midsize sedans have over 300hp, I'm not the only one who feels this way.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    A midsize sedan without a V6 may be adequate to some of you, but it's out of the question for me. Not only are they quieter at cruising speed and when driving around town, but the power is all but instant when you hit the gas, unlike having to wait for the revs to build up on most 4-cylinders.

    And yes, I do rev my car past 4K RPM (quite frequently, I may add) when passing or accelerating on an on-ramp, so I'm not "afraid" to drive it. Gas mileage? Well, I get about 10-20% BETTER gas mileage with my V6 Mazda6 compared to my previous DD, a 4-cylinder Grand Am, because I'm not constantly gunning it just to keep up with traffic.

    Sorry, but a V6 in a midsize sedan isn't going anywhere anytime soon.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,622
    There are also the I4 turbos in cars like the Passat that provide more than enough get-up-and-go.

    I've never owned a V6 in any vehicle other than a minivan, and there I think it's a necessity due to the weight of those vehicles (although my 1991 Caravan had a 100 hp I4, in which I got my first speeding ticket). My 2000 626 has 125 hp and 2004 Elantra has 138. (And my 2005 Jetta only 115, and is a heavy little car but not mid-sized). Although the extra power of a V6 is fun, I don't miss it in daily driving. But I'm not going 85 mph or running on mountainous roads, either.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,706

    This is one reason that we have over-powered engines in mid-size sedans. I think many buy a ~250 HP (at say 6000 rpm) V6, but never run it over 3000...which means, at most, they are using 125 HP.


    Which is why my 125HP 4 cylinder with a manual transmission is just as quick in traffic. :P I keep my engine wound up and it jumps into spaces very quickly.(and the thing weighs about the same as a typical midsize sedan)

    You can do this same "trick" with a 4 cylinder Accord or Civic with manual as well. 150-160HP and 4-5000rpm in 3rd makes for lightning fast merges.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    A midsize sedan without a V6 may be adequate to some of you, but it's out of the question for me. Not only are they quieter at cruising speed and when driving around town, but the power is all but instant when you hit the gas, unlike having to wait for the revs to build up on most 4-cylinders.

    And yes, I do rev my car past 4K RPM (quite frequently, I may add) when passing or accelerating on an on-ramp, so I'm not "afraid" to drive it. Gas mileage? Well, I get about 10-20% BETTER gas mileage with my V6 Mazda6 compared to my previous DD, a 4-cylinder Grand Am, because I'm not constantly gunning it just to keep up with traffic.


    Its too bad you are a Mazda man, it sounds like a 3.8 pushrod motor from the General would be right up your alley. Great low end torque, and it all but goes to sleep on the highway loafing at 75-85 mph. Drop it in a large or midsize sedan and get fine highway fuel economy numbers as well.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    You can do this same "trick" with a 4 cylinder Accord or Civic with manual as well. 150-160HP and 4-5000rpm in 3rd makes for lightning fast merges.

    I have found it to be a safety feature that both the '93 Accord EX and the '07 Accord EX can run in 3rd gear at highway speeds for evasive maneuvers, quick passing, or anything along those lines. Eh and sometimes its actually, dare I say it, fun.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Indeed it can be fun. The thing I like (that others may not) is that full throttle isn't required to get to 3rd gear in the automatic, from 5th, when at highway speeds. You want to pass that eighteen wheeler but don't want to wake grandma? Give it a good 70% throttle and you don't get the neck-snapping power/shift that you do at full throttle, but you are almost instantly in the 5k RPM range and accelerating swiftly.

    Something I dislike about GM vehicles I've driven is that I can't, for the life of me, get much of a downshift without giving it full boot. I should tell you, I've never driven the new 6-speeds from GM though; just 4-speed trucks and cars.

    On a somewhat related topic... can someone enlighten me on the similarities or differences (if any of either) between the 6-speed auto in the Malibu, et. al. and the 6-speed in Ford's Taurus? I know its not a midsizer, but the other forums are all but dead, and this one has a lot of knowledgeable folks.

    Thanks!!

    TheGraduate
  • tallman1tallman1 Posts: 1,874
    You can do this same "trick" with a 4 cylinder Accord or Civic with manual as well.

    Bingo. The manual makes a huge difference with the 4.
  • dave8697dave8697 Posts: 1,479
    4th gear is gone so I cruise the interstates in 3rd gear at over 2200 rpm. This isn't too bad at $1.79 a gallon. I think I hit 4000 rpm once when I hit 90 merging from the on-ramp. 3800SC. Have no Idea what over 4000 is like.
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