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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    I am sure there was a time when GM/Ford thought Toyota/Honda would never take the number 1/2 slots in sedan sales. I am sure even the public thought so also. Well flash to today and look who has been number 1/2 for the last 5-8 years. To say GM/Ford will never regain even into the top 3 spots I feel is ignorant and shortsighted. GM and Ford have answered the challenge by Honda/Toyota (finally) with two very good sedans. Perception is what they now need to overcome. Fusions reliability/quality is now firmly up to par with the Camry/Accord. In some instances some mags say the Fusion is actually more reliable than the Camry!. I see either the Malibu/Fulan or both moving into the top 4 in the next 5 years. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    I really doubt the 2010 Camry will be CR's top "family sedan" next year. It would have to unseat the Accord, which is CR's top family sedan this year. And Accord already has ESC standard. Camry was not dinged by CR for it this year because ESC is widely available as an option. They only ding a car for it--Altima is a good example--if ESC is very hard to find or not available. Since ESC isn't available on the I4 Altimas and an option on the V6 Altimas, that cost Altima CR's "top family sedan" designation (according to what the April CR issue said anyway), even though the V6 Altima is the top ranked over-$25k family sedan based on points (+1 over Accord EX-L), but 3 points behind the Accord LX-P MT in the below-$25k family sedan grouping. Since the 2009 Camry is only 3rd in the over-$25k grouping and way down in 7th place in the under-$25k class, it would have to make a huge jump for 2010 to be CR's top choice in family sedans. I don't see the small tweaks for 2010 doing that. Other cars above the Camry have improved for 2009-10 also, e.g. Optima (2009 model not yet tested by CR) and 2010 Prius.

    Also, your data on CR reliability for Camry and Altima is incorrect per the latest CR issue (April). So where are you getting your data, particularly the details reliability history for the 2009 Camry? That is not published in the April CR issue.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    The 2009 data for the Camry is online in the CR subscription.Not sure if it is present in the print version.If u have online access to CR , u can check reliability for 2009 Camry- in all criteria ,it got red dots and the predicted new car reliability also got a red dot.
    Again,I am not sure of the print edition.
    And previously I had said ESC was standard on Altimas- my mistake-- yes,it is standard on accords and from 2010 on Camrys.It is only optional on V6 Altimas and it gets a rap for that.
    Also the fusion/milan,malibu have good reliability ratings- I would need atleast four-five years of good reliability.But the Fusion/Malibu I think are on the right track.
    The problem is,its not enough if they are competitive-- They have to be class leaders ,world beaters and game changers for perception to change-- 2 decades of poor cars cant be rectified by 2-3 years of good cars.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    The problem is,its not enough if they are competitive-- They have to be class leaders ,world beaters and game changers for perception to change-- 2 decades of poor cars cant be rectified by 2-3 years of good cars.

    For people who are programmed to head straight to their Toyota dealer to buy another Camry, or to the Honda dealer to buy another Accord, without seriously considering other options, I agree. Except it appears in some cases at least there are some new "class leaders", e.g. the new Fulan hybrid is being widely praised as superior to the Camry and Altima hybrids. And the Fulan has taken the reliability mantle formerly held by Camry and Accord. With a few more years of this kind of success, maybe more Toyota and Honda fans will start to take notice.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    I don't think anyone can state that the seemingly high number of complaints you might see on an Edmunds forum about a particular car proves anything. That's like saying because there are more 2009 Sonata reviews (on the right hand side of this page) than 2009 Accord reviews that the Sonata must be outselling the Accord two to one.

    I've noticed that some(if not all) brands of cars have zealots both pro and con and there is sometimes psychological reasons for some of these high praises and complaints which have nothing to do with subjectivity.

    Hundreds of thousands of these cars are sold each year and because several people complain(or praise) a lot on Edmunds doesn't prove anything. Maybe an indicator or something to consider.....but not proof.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    Just saw a picture gallery and stats on the new '10 Legacy over on autoblog.com. Hate to say this but in the pictures it sure reminds me of the Sebring, front, front angle and rear. Maybe it will be different in real life but I'm not fond of the look so far. Width increased 3" will mean enough room for us "average" folk.

    Now I see it on Edmunds also.
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    What the heck is a Legacy? What brand.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,666
    Subaru, of course.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    I really don't see any resemblance to the Sebring, except the Chrysler-like badge in the grille. Maybe Subaru figures Chrysler won't be needing that badge much longer.

    I see a LOT of the current Accord from the A-pillar back--in fact, if you take off the taillamp extensions on the trunk lid (which Honda will likely add to the Accord for 2011, as per their history with Accord taillamps on and off trunk lids), I think it's nearly a copy of the Accord. (While the Accord's rear was a close facsimile of BMW. But I digress.) The front looks like Subaru is trying to compete with Nissan for the "who can put the largest headlamps on a sedan" award. I think the front would be more attractive with less chrome, and a smaller badge (especially given the similarity to Chrysler's badge). I prefer the looks of the dash on the current car, but it appears the interior has high-quality materials at least--if that can be determined from photos!

    Glad to read of the 4" increase in rear leg room--that will make the Legacy a lot more popular with buyers who need to carry large kids and adults in the back seat.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    Headlights and taillights are very close and general shape with the high read end look similar to me. Hood and trunck are quite different. Just struck me when I first saw it that was the first thing I thought of.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Glad to read of the 4" increase in rear leg room--that will make the Legacy a lot more popular with buyers who need to carry large kids and adults in the back seat.

    I wonder how this will affect the sporty, fun to drive feel. If I wanted a boat, I could get an Accord. I don't know, maybe its my stature but I don't always associate bigger with better.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,614
    parked out front of the dealership that i brought my explorer in for service today.
    i had seen one at an auto show, but they look pretty good.
    not a car for casper. buy this car and be proud.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    Well, there's still the 3 Series... RX-8... WRX... in fact LOTS of cars with a sporty, fun-to-drive feel if that is what you want. Maybe Subaru figured if they wish to compete in the family sedans market, they'd better make a sedan that can hold the entire family. And Mazda and VW, and to some extent Honda and Nissan, have proven it's possible to build a fun-to-drive family sedan. So making the Subaru big enough for real people, like those other sedans are, shouldn't be a hinderance.

    I like smaller cars too, but I also know it's possible to make a compact-sized car with a mid-sized interior (cf. Elantra, Forte, Prius, Sentra, Versa...). It's just that most people seem to prefer bigger cars. At least now that gas is back to $2 a gallon.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    Ewww.

    'Nuff said.
  • I'm not seeing Honda Accord anywhere on this new Legacy...but it smacks of Sebring and previous generation Infiniti G35
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    I'm not seeing Honda Accord anywhere on this new Legacy...but it smacks of Sebring and previous generation Infiniti G35

    Exactly what I said when I first saw it. The front end SCREAMS Sebring, which is the LAST car in this class to draw styling inspiration from.

    I'll wait to see it in person for my final judgment, but the pictures are disappointing. It's not as bad as the "concept" they were showing, but it's still a letdown.

    I guess we're starting to see the Toyota/Subaru partnership, since Subaru is styling their cars as generically as Toyota has... :P
  • mickeyrommickeyrom Posts: 936
    Thank you,of course.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    Check out the rear 3/4 view. Also note the C pillar, the side sculpting, even the rear lamps sans the trunk overrun.

    Actually the only thing I see on the new Legacy that looks anything like the Sebring is the shape of the headlamps, and that's getting to be a common shape these days. Also that winged emblem. :P
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