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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • uga91uga91 Metro AtlantaPosts: 1,065
    I bought a new Altima 2 weeks ago. I thought I was going to buy a new Accord LX; but, the dealer didn't want to deal. Not only did they "offer" me full sticker, they wanted me to pay the dealer fee twice. I really liked the Accord, though. I'm sure Honda will do well with it.

    My final shopping was the Fusion SE, Camry SE and the Altima SV. In the end, I didn't like the Fusion enough--the Focus-like back end was the real deal breaker for me. The Camry wasn't bad. We have a 2012 Sienna and I like the service department at my dealer. At the end of the day, though, I wasn't excited about buying a Camry, so I moved on.

    I went to the Nissan dealer with the intention of looking at an Altima 2.5S. The dealer was offering a Memorial Day deal of about $18k for the 2.5S. I really wanted the automatic climate control, alloy wheels and back up camera that the Accord LX has, though. I had to move over to the Altima 2.5SV. The SV has the features of the Accord--plus, it has satellite radio and Intelligent Key with remote start. The fit and finish of the new Altima is similar to the Maxima and the feel on the road is very solid. So far I am very happy with my purchase. I see why there are many new Altimas on the road.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,444
    Hard to believe a Honda dealer won't go below sticker. I got more than $2,000 off on a rare (back in January - because of late availability) Manual EX model. I think you can get closer to $3k off now on an automatic, probably more on the top models.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,273
    edited June 2013
    WOW man! I am so glad I don't own either one, and not just for safety reasons.

    My car passed, and here is the video if anyone out there is considering a 2012 Optima.



    Oh, and congrats on the new Altima, and thanks for clearing up the Batman DC comics Optima!

    Have a good weekend all!

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,699
    On the way home from work, I ended up first car in line at a few stop lights.
    Since I've never had a FWD car with traction control, I decided to see how my 2013 Fusion works.
    Gave it enough of a goose to spin the tires in other vehicles I've owned, but after what seemed like a few inches of tire rotation, it just walked away from the rest of the cars.
    No spin, no torque steer, no drama. Nice.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Don't they all have that now?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,699
    I'm sure everything has it now. I've just haven't had FWD with traction control before.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,273
    edited June 2013
    Lots of rain here too. Traction control is mostly an ABS heavy system that also cancels throttle inputs by electronically shutting off the fuel at the injectors. When it engages a yellow icon of wavy lines flashes on the IP. It can make your car lurch and jerk a bit.

    When mine activates is mostly off the line while making a right on red in wet conditions. Or, it will activate when there is tarmac damage/potholes that cause the wheel to momentarily break contact with the surface during heavy throttle conditions . Mine can be shut off, which is fun off the line sometimes like you said.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 791
    My only complaint with my 2012 Mazda CX-9 GT is the overly aggressive Traction Control! My CX-9 is FWD and it is VERY easy to spin the front tires, especially on wet surfaces. The 273hp 3.7L V6, gearing of the 6-speed automatic and All Season 'Performance' tires make it very easy to cause the front tires to lose traction.

    When this happens, I instinctively take my foot off of the gas pedal. The Traction Control system also kicks in and cuts the throttle. If you're pulling onto a highway and this happen, you become a 'sitting duck' for a few seconds until the Traction Control 'releases' the throttle. For those brief few seconds, if you press the gas pedal again, you will get very little power.

    When I'm making a risky turn, such as turning left across a four-lane highway, I always turn it OFF. With it off, it will 'roast' the tires on dry pavement and even bark the tires during the 1-2 upshift! The massive, performance-oriented P245/50VR20 tires are also part of the problem. I plan to replace them with slightly less aggressive rubber. Other CX-9 owners have done so with good results.

    If I had got the AWD model, this wouldn't be an issue. But it cost $2000 more, got 22mpg vs 24mpg on the highway and took over 0.5sec longer to hit 60mph. Also, AWD models are very hard to find here. Out of the 29 CX-9s my dealer had in stock, only 3 were AWD...
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    edited June 2013
    Like you, I got a good deal on a rare model—a deep red EXL navi. Got $2800 off list. A few people are doing even better than that.

    The Accord is a "hot" car, and is flying off most dealer lots as almost fast as they can make them, but they are making a lot of them, and so most people should be able to score a deal if they shop around at different Honda dealers....

    This site helped me. You put in the car you want, and then different dealers within a 100 mile radius or so compete for your deal. Great discounts are available on the new Accord:

    http://carwoo.com/

    If anyone lives near Nashville, this Honda dealer there is offering c. $2500-$3000 off all Accords in stock, with no negotiation needed:

    http://www.cresthonda.com/index.htm
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    Camry 39,216
    Accord 33,218
    Altima 31,940
    Fusion 29,553
    Sonata 20,194
    Malibu 18,899
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    edited June 2013
    Looks like Nissan might be having some start-up quality problems with the new Altima. The average consumer rating for the Altima at Edmunds.com at 3.9 is lower than for other midsize cars. For instance, the Passat has a 4.7, the Mazda6 a 4.8, etc. Some customers have posted some quite negative reviews of their new Altimas. Others, however, seem happy with their Altimas. I imagine Nissan will get it sorted out soon. Makes for interesting reading, anyway....
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,273
    edited June 2013
    Camry has got to be relying heavily on fleet sales to achieve those figures. The car has not been rated well by almost everyone, and even the Head of the Insurance Institute of America said the Camry earned poor crash ratings and that their engineers lot of work to do in order to catch up to competitors like the Honda Accord. I guess people feel "safe" buying them. I wonder what the percentages are for male/female sales and how old Toyota's median age buyer is. I get that their product is viewed as durable/reliable...and I guess that is enough for a lot of folks.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,190
    >I get that their product is viewed as durable/reliable...and I guess that is enough for a lot of folks.

    A lot of people go by what they hear. That's why long standing opinions are so hard to overcome with new facts. If someone keeps badmouthing a car brand or company, that takes a long time to go away. When some keep goodmouthing an undeserving company, some buyers just keep on buying because Maude at cards said she loves her Camry and has had almost now trouble with it, e.g..
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 967
    Camry has good safety ratings overall. The 2012 version and up does worse at the new test because it didn't exist at the time. new 2013 Altimas and Accords were designed with this specific test in mind. Overall Camry is an extremely reliable car. It isn't my cup of tea, but the fact is that a huge swath of the buying public loves them. Many of them love them because they are repeat buyers. You can't get those kinds of sales records on anecdotal evidence alone.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,699
    Back in 2007, which I think is the high water mark for Camry sales, the Fusion and Sonata where selling at about 12,000 per month.
    The mid size market has grown, but the the additional market share has gone to the Camry competitors.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    Of the top 5 in the midsize car markets there are 3 Japanese makes, 1 Korean, and 1 American. But it's a little ironic that the only American in the top 5, the Fusion, is made in Mexico. Toyota has a huge factory in KY, Honda a huge factory in OH, Nissan a huge factory in TN, and Hyundai a huge factory in AL, making all of these cars more "American" than the Ford. Even when Ford starts making more Fusions in Michigan, 2 out of 3 of Fusions will still be coming from Mexico. I support free trade, and feel positively about Mexico and how well they are doing with car production, including with the Japanese makes, but I just think it's interesting...

    Oh, #6, the Malibu, is also made in the USA in KS.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,699
    edited June 2013
    Most companies align their business model according to how they can make the most profit.
    The Fusion is the 3rd highest selling Ford in the US.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,699
    I had a 2011 Explorer AWD for about 2 years, traded it in for the Fusion.
    Averaged 22 mpg overall and 24+ was not uncommon on a long highway trip.
    The only time the tires spun was when I took it through some mud under power.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,273
    ...and the Optima is made in West Point GA, along with the Sorrento. It is no accident that the Hyundai plant is in Montgomery AL, about 100 miles away from W. Point on I-85. Easy to share materials. etc.

    Ford is going to make Fusions in Flat Rock Michigan at the old plant they shared with Mazda, but they had to re-tool the whole plant for Fusion and and that takes time and $$$. $775 million to be exact. (Detroit Free Press). That's good news for thousands of existing employees, and over 1200 new hires.

    Thanks for investing in the Detroit area Ford. Thanks very much. :)

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    One things that's amazing to me, is that now the KIA and Hyundai plants are both working virtually around the clock. They are working at 120% of capacity, or something like that.

    CSKI: You seem to be a good detective for info. By any chance can you find out how many people the KIA plant employs now? And what is the total number of vehicles it made last year?

    Usually for every employee actually at a car plant there are several working at smaller factories that are part of the supply chain making seats or whatever to go in the cars.

    All of these employees, of course, spend their money and there's a spillover or multiplier effect as other jobs are created.

    I've bought cars made in Japan and Germany, and I believe in free trade, but I prefer for my cars to be made in the USA.

    PS Saw an Optima the other day in black. That is a very nice looking car!
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,273
    edited June 2013
    The following info was found on the official Kia of America web site; http://www.kmmgusa.com/

    "On Nov. 16, 2009, Kia Motors Manufacturing Georgia, Inc. (KMMG) began mass production of the 2011 Kia Sorento, the first vehicle produced at the brand new state-of-the-art facility in West Point, Ga.There were several important events leading up to that momentous day at Kia’s first North American automobile manufacturing plant including the announcement on March 13, 2006, that a Site Acquisition and Development Agreement had been signed between the State of Georgia and Kia Motors America (KMA), Kia’s sales and marketing headquarters in the United States, to bring the $1 billion plant to the 2,259-acre site in Georgia. This project is the largest in the state’s history.

    A grand opening ceremony was held at the plant on Feb. 26, 2010.

    Since then, the Kia Sorento has taken off as the most successful Kia vehicle of all-time in the U.S., leading the way with record-breaking sales since production began. This is a testament to the focus and pride each KMMG team member places on building a quality vehicle.

    KMMG has now hired more than 3,000 team members at its West Point location. When factoring in positions created at suppliers throughout the region, more than 10,000 jobs have been created in association with KMMG.

    In April of 2011, KMMG began a $100 million expansion project that would increase the plant’s capacity from 300,000 to more than 360,000 vehicles per year, starting in 2012.


    On Sept. 2, 2011, KMMG officially began mass production of its second Kia product, the 2012 Optima and now has three full shifts operating at the plant 24 hours a day/five days per week".

    In total, Kia built 1.6 million vehicles as of August 2012.

    I was following a top of the line 2013 Optima SX-L on a local road yesterday, and I noticed that he had removed "Optima" from the back of his car, and replaced the "KIA" emblem on the trunk with "K" badges. So, I had a feeling that he was on the enthusiast site. (www.optimaforums.com). At the light it turned out he was so we exchanged pleasantries. It really is a small world...after all!

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I've got a 2013 Fusion and have experienced the same thing.
    Try experimenting with lowering various windows.
    I have a sunroof and usually drive with it cracked open and the right rear window down.
    The air gets sucked in the back window and swirls around to the left side and forward, then out the roof.
    It provides a nice breeze.


    I do the exact same thing in my '09 Sonata GLS V6 with a sunroof. Great breeze!
  • uga91uga91 Metro AtlantaPosts: 1,065
    One of those Altimas was mine...I bought a 2.5 SV in May...
  • uga91uga91 Metro AtlantaPosts: 1,065
    Yes, the called me back saying they would be willing to work with me, after all, but it was too late. I'm very happy with the Altima. The Intelligent Key and satellite radio are used every day--and I would have had neither one of them in the Accord LX.
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 967
    SV is a higher trim level than the Accord LX. Comparable to SV on the Accord would be the EX, and those features are included. Enjoy your Altima; it's a great car.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,876
    A reporter would like to speak to a couple who recently purchased a family car together. If you and your spouse have kids, purchased a car within the past six months and would like to share your story with a journalist, please send your daytime contact information at pr@edmunds.com no later than Tuesday, June 11, 2013 at 2 p.m. PT/5 p.m. ET.

    MODERATOR
    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.
    Share your vehicle reviews

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,273
    Oh yeah. I love walking out of the dealership until they cave in! Also, I feel the same way about my Satellite radio, Bluetooth, Pandora, start button, and leather. Enjoy your Altima. I love the way it looks from the side and the back. let me now how the CVT feels over like the next 5,000 miles.

    I have to admit that I have not been inside a new Accord in person, but in the detailed pictures I have seen, it looks like a lot of car for $22,470 (LX) or 24, 490. (Sport). Of course, I would be all over the Sport if I lived in an area where the 6 speed stick would be more appropriate. I am almost glad it wasn't available when I bought the Optima because I would have agonized over the decision!!

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    cski: Good info! Thanks++ West Point, Georgia is letting the good times roll, in very small part thanks to you....
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,273
    edited June 2013
    I found out that the last phase of the negotiations for the deal between the state of GA and the president of Kia were done in a bar on cocktail napkins, passed back and forth with figures on them, until both parties agreed. So many great things have been done that way, the old fashioned way, by sitting down and working things out face to face.

    I think we need to keep that in mind in an increasingly technical world, that a handshake means something, and honoring that handshake means something more. Honesty and keeping ones word.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,766
    cski: Great story. Thanks for sharing that. What you say is true.

    It's certainly been a win-win for Georgia and KIA.
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