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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    "....Toyota – currently the undisputed leader in automotive sales volume – is expected to post about 1.23 million sales in the first quarter of '09, down an amazing 47% from the previous year. Volkswagen's 1.39 million sales represent a much smaller drop of about 11%."

    But those are global figures. Does anyone have US figures? I would bet that Toyota outsells VW in the US about ten to one.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Another example of the reliability - quality difference might be GM's old V6 engine (3.8L?), I've heard that referred to as "bullet-proof" but I think it is also considered to be "unrefined". So that might be considered to be a reliable engine, but not a high quality engine.
  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    I test drove a new 2010 Fusion SEL 2.5 4cyl 6speed automatic. Ford is listening to consumers and it is showing. The new 2.5 4cyl is smooth and responsive. The new dash is leaps and bounds better looking, than in my 06. I like the nice accents that are put in the 06 interior. The days of Toyota/Honda dominating the 4cyl market in mid size sedans is coming to an end.
    Also test drove a v6 SE version. The "re tuned" V6 does have more power. But when pushed does growl. I like the sound myself, others may call it "unrefined". Frankly, I really liked the new 2.5 4cyl. When spun up the engine just sounds like it was made for it. Fit/finish of both cars was excellent.
    As far as VW. In 06 my choice came down to a Fusion and a Jetta. The interior quality/fit/finish was not any better or worse in the Jetta than in the Fusion. What swayed me was the endless stories of Jetta's in the shop. However, if you now look at the 06 Jetta reliability data it has improved.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    Yeah, I'd go along with that. Same for the old 3.0 Vulcan V6 from the '90s-vintage Taurus.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    The days of Toyota/Honda dominating the 4cyl market in mid size sedans is coming to an end.

    I think that is a bit of a stretch. The Accord and Camry are still much stronger sellers then the Altima, and the Fusion lags quite far behind the Altima in sales. While Fusion v2.0 is much improved and is much better then its predesesor, I'm not so sure Ford will dominate this crowded class.

    The 2009 Mazda6 uses a lot of the technology found in the 2010 Fusion including the same 2.5L I-4. The Mazda6 sales are off to a very slow start. Partly due to the massive content available and the little steeper price then the Big 3 from Japan. For 2010, Mazda has brought the car more inline to be more competitive. Anyway, my point is there are many very good cars in this class, 2010 Fusion included, but, I do not see Toyota or Honda stumbling anytime soon.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Same for the old 3.0 Vulcan V6 from the '90s-vintage Taurus.

    That was the one made by Yamaha, right?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,623
    No, Yamaha made the engine for the original SHO Taurus. The Vulcan was Ford. (Live long, and prosper.)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    The Vulcan needs not live long. Bring on the Duratec.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,623
    Sorry my attempt at humor was lost on you. Anyway, the Vulcan is dead... Jim.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,622
    But I heard the Hyundai Genesis may bring the Vulcan back to life........... :P
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    I was going to request that Scotty beam me up, but. . . there is intelligent life here.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,897
    But those are global figures

    But that's what I was talking about. This IS a forum with readers/contributors from around the world. You are right that Toyota outsells VW in the US substantially but I'm not sure to what power...it could be ten to one like you say
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,663
    VW sales are so good in the world overall? Is it the look, people view their body designs as appealing? And quality and reliability are up a tad? Apparently this has all slipped past me here in the hicksticks of SE Arizona, imagine all that. :shades:

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,623
    Hyundai's slogan used to be, "Driving is believing." I think that slogan would be appropriate for VW. If you haven't driven them, you don't understand why many people swear by them (maybe at them sometimes...) even though they don't have as good a reliability history as Toyota or Honda. They do have good styling (they even make the Chrysler minivan look pretty decent), but it's more in the driving feel.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    VW sales are so good in the world overall? Is it the look, people view their body designs as appealing? And quality and reliability are up a tad? Apparently this has all slipped past me here in the hicksticks of SE Arizona, imagine all that.

    In most of the world, people place a value on driving. Not all the other crap people in the US do instead of driving. For those folks, VWs are very fun to drive. If you want a psuedo-stick slush box cvt deal with boy racer paddles or a 600 watt stereo, those really aren't VW things. In the US, people hate driving. They want as many gismos to help they forget they are driving as possible. This is why Lexus is so popular, and Buicks before that. Americans want to be isolated from the driving experience while most other people embrace it.

    This is why VW is a niche market in the US, its why BMW and MBZ only bring over the big expensive cars, why you can't find a Focus without SYNC but its hard to find one with ABS, etc.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    So you don't think their poor reliability record had anything at all to do with it? I love driving. OTOH I hate waiting for a damn tow truck in the rain.

    In most European nations they have much better mass transit, so not everyone has to drive to get where they're going. A mechanical problem is less of an inconvenience under those circumstances.

    Also, in the '80s and '90s Japanese manufacturers were limited by the EEC (precursor to the EU) to around 3% of the market. VW benefited enormously from this protectionism. That, at least as much as the alleged European preference for "driving," is the reason that Toyota and Honda do not have the dealer base or the market share in most European nations that they do in the US. It's also the reason that Peugeot, Renault and Fiat survived at all.
  • delthekingdeltheking Posts: 1,152
    I was reading about the age brackets of folks buying Accord or Camry.Very interesting reads.The Accord age group is 40, the Camry is 50.That`s a decade divide for the 2 best selling family sedans.
    It was reported that as folks age,,they tend more towards the Camry whereas the younger generation prefer Accords.The 40`s crowd want performance and handling in exchange for a harsher,rougher ,noisier ride.
    The 50`s crowd prefer smooth,quiet rides.
    As Toyota was losing market share of younger folks-they invented the Scion to get in the gen-x crowd who would migrate to Toyota and Lexus later.
    Also I think the Accord has more squeaks and rattles than the Camry,,not an isolated incident as I drove 2 to 3 of each--maybe they are built that way ,,and the younger crowd don`t seem to mind that!!

    Any thoughts!!
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    So you don't think their poor reliability record had anything at all to do with it? I love driving. OTOH I hate waiting for a damn tow truck in the rain.

    Oh man, the Contour blew a waterpump (common, same fault as the BMW 3-series with the plastic impeller) in a terrible snow storm a few years back (its sole tow truck ride) and when my wife came to get me in the Accord, it blew an oil seal (one of many tow truck rides). Luckily she beat the tow truck there so the flatbed just picked up both of them. That was not a good month for my budget.

    I can't remember being stranded by a VW. Actually, ever. I have had to fix things to get them going (the fuse boxes were very poor from the 70s through the 90s and would rust, needing tweaks to get them going again) but things like accessories, power windows (the motors, the switches, etc) were sub-par.

    I think people make trade-offs. The difference between best in class and worst in class is statistically significant but not actually significant. If a Toyota needs to go to the dealer once every 5 years, and the VW needs to go every 2 or 3 years, its worth it to me to have a more fun to drive car.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    I was reading about the age brackets of folks buying Accord or Camry.Very interesting reads.The Accord age group is 40, the Camry is 50.That`s a decade divide for the 2 best selling family sedans

    Its interesting, the stuff I found had them both pushed back 10 years, where the Accord age group is 50s and the Camry age group is 60s. I always thought that was particularly funny because the "family sedans" were going to empty nesters more than families.

    As Toyota was losing market share of younger folks-they invented the Scion to get in the gen-x crowd who would migrate to Toyota and Lexus later.

    They invented Scion to bring new folks in. It kind of worked. The mean age of a Scion buyer is still much more Gen W(?) then Gen X or Y, which was the target at the time. I need to find the link but I saw it reported that the age for a Scion buyer is above the age for a Focus buyer.

    Also I think the Accord has more squeaks and rattles than the Camry,,not an isolated incident as I drove 2 to 3 of each--maybe they are built that way

    Hondas tend to squeak and rattle. Hatchbacks are worse than sedans. Not a super big issue to me.
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Posts: 1,230
    ...but it's more in the driving feel.

    VW ranked tops in driving feel? Not even close. In this class, the Mazda6 still ranks higher in being a "drivers" car over a Passat, and I'll give the Accord, Altima, and even the new Fusion credit over the Passat as well (for now anyway, still waiting to take out the new Fusion Sport to see for myself...)
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