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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,209
    My neighbors bought a used 2008 Camry XLE V6 2 days ago. The "wood" interior had me questioning what U.S. buyers think luxury is. :confuse: What I saw was lots of cheap plastic and amazingly the fit and finish was really bad. Maybe we have come a long way in 5 years, and that is probably part of it.

    The point is; to this American it is not a $69 wood kit from Pep Boys and silver -plastic buttons from a Soundesign boom-box. Yuk.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,209
    You are right. The C/D article about the 6 was really positive, and they admitted nit-picking on the center console. These are still mid size sedans and ALL of them have a weakness or two. If absolutely everything was really luxurious and they all had 300 HP engines and all wheel drive and every other damn bell and whistle then who would want to buy an actual luxury car?

    The Mazda 6 was the C/D mid size winner after eliminating all other competitors in a fair and objective process. C/D does value sporty above all other things however and other magazines may have chosen differently.

    I like sporty...and the Mazda is a fine car. IMO. :shades:
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 932
    My point exactly. It's my personal piqué, not reflective of current vehicles. However I know that and so I don't bash Ford on these forums. People who insist that Accords are unreliable in spite of stats to the contrary are not going to be dissuaded by logic, and its not very productive to argue with them.

    In regards to the current Mazda, its true that I didn't look at a 6 this time around. But that's because we have lost the two dealers in our area who were good. I think that's a problem for Mazda outside of large urban areas.

    I did look at the Altima and thought it had a very nice interior by the way. Not so the Camry. I just thought the Accord drove a little better and I didn't like the drone of the Altima CVT. accord is much quieter. But Altima has a better audio system. Two fine cars. We do have really good choices now.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    edited July 2013
    As for folks who write off a brand forever, based on experience years ago, that is your prerogative.

    Excuse me, I think you have me confused with some people who have written off a brand. I haven't. I've owned/leased 3 Dodge and Chrysler minivans and loved them. I just don't think much of the 200 and Avenger.

    Over the years I've owned or leased Dodges, a Chrysler, Toyotas, Hondas, Mazdas, a Chevy, a Mercury, a Mitsubishi, VWs, a BMW, Nissans, Hyundais, and most recently a Kia. So, no, I haven't written off any brands. If it's a good car, and meets my needs at the right price, I'll consider it.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    edited July 2013
    I wasn't referring to you. That involved another post. I should have said their prerogative rather than your prerogative. Sorry for confusing you.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,622
    I wanted something that 'Wowed' me, so I bought a Fusion, my second one.
    Speaking of crash testing, that's something that you can't see in the showroom or on a test drive.
    My Fusion has Continental tires and my previous one had Michelins.
    I traded it in at about 38k and they had plenty of tread left.
    My wife's '04 Escape had Continental tries and they were horrible, I swapped them out way early.
    Our '09 Escape came with Michelins, which have 60k on them and are still going strong.
  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    Wayne, it’s a shame that you won’t consider a Mazda6 because of the dash. I understand that there are dealbreakers. I’m sure they are people who would have bought a Camry if not for the small offset crash test results. In my case, after driving my wife’s Volvo with BLIS, that became a requirement and is the reason I got a Mazda6 instead of an Accord
    I think most of your passengers would join the consensus that it does have an upscale interior so perhaps a second look at a non-functional component is worth your time.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    No problem... I wasn't confused. ;)
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 227
    Wayne, it’s a shame that you won’t consider a Mazda6 because of the dash. I understand that there are dealbreakers.

    It wasn't just the dash. I looked at the 6 perhaps a month or so ago and wrote it off. All I remember was that I thought it was easily the best looking midsized sedan I'd seen, but the seats sat too low and there was hard, shiny black plastic on the dash, doors, center console, etc. And I'm not really concerned about passengers. If I wanted to impress them I wouldn't be shopping this market.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,209
    The truth is that profit margins on mid size sedans are very low. The manufacturer may make $1000 per car, if that.

    Where they DO make money is on the next step up, or entry level/compact luxury cars.

    It only costs the manufacturer about $1000 to dress up their mid size platform in luxury attire, and they make more like $5000 per unit. I mean, how much does a soft touch door panel, a couple of LED lights and an extra 5 feet of leather really cost?

    It's kind of like putting a tux on a healthy man or a short black dress on a beautiful woman. You have to start with a good platform!
  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    Of course seat comfort is a deal breaker. I have a GT with power seats so I wouldn't experience that problem. As for the shiny, black plastic, your memory is not serving you well. There is none. In fact, the interior may be a little too uniform and a little shinyness might actually improve the appearance.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    Time is money, and if you value your time, you definitely shouldn't be buying a Chrysler product. One of my most angry memories isn't how much big money $$$$ was wasted constantly repairing the darned Chrysler product (though that mattered highly), but how much wasted time was spent on it (taking it to shops to get fixed, paying bills, telling them what's wrong with it), and particularly the down time (time where you don't have a working car).

    I went from a young guy that just wanted something sporty to a young guy that wanted something as reliable as a Camry or Accord because those were the two most reliable cars. The Chrysler experience drove me to Honda/Toyota in essence; no matter how boring the cars were. Thankfully, Honda was making some fun stuff in 2002/03.

    Resale value matters highly to insurance companies. If someone rear-ends you and totals your vehicle, they will only pay what it's worth. You'll get a big check with the Camry or Accord, you'll get pennies on the Chrysler.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    However, I do believe both Chrysler products are improved enough to be acceptable to most typical Camry drivers

    I can tell by that outrageous statement you've never owned a Camry.

    A Camry owner would never say that.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,966
    Just announced. The new Mazda6 w/iE-loop is rated at 28city and 40hwy. Wow. When it gets offered on the new 2014 Mazda3 along with the complete skyactiv engineering it should bump the Mazda3 up to about 32city and 43hwy(guessing here). Pretty amazing for non-turbo, non-direct injection engines.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,966
    Yeah, that's pretty much what I just said. I'm afraid of Chrysler even though they have some nice stuff. Based on all their recalls(Jeep included) and they just announced a bunch more today. See below.

    from cars.com
    Chrysler is voluntarily recalling an estimated 712,084 vehicles in four separate actions due to problems with various safety features, the automaker announced this week. It's more bad news for the automaker after its decision last month — following a recall request by the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration — to inspect and repair 2.7 million Jeep SUVs due to a fuel-system problem that could lead to fires.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    People who own Camrys like them and buy new ones, probably without looking at the competition. Same goes for other brands just not in the same numbers.

    My parents bought a '95 Camry and helped out with my '95 Neon purchase significantly (and were therefore majority owners) The cars were actually purchased about a year apart, but close enough for comparison purposes. They didn't need to look at the competition, they had first and second hand direct experience.

    The experience of those cars directly translates into why my Dad owns a Lexus ES 300 and Mom owns a '01 Camry V6 to this date currently. The '01 Camry is doing fine and they were able to sell the '95 Camry a few years ago for significant cash.

    I to, have not purchased another Chrysler product, and have been EXTREMELY happy with my Honda and Audi products. Frankly, avoiding Chrysler products would have been an excellent idea for all Americans the last 40 years because we'd of avoided 2 bailouts and a bankrupted company (had there not been bailouts).

    I have a feeling that 90% of the bailout supporters had a DIRECT financial interest in supporting them (ie. they owned a product made by GM or Chrysler and wanted the warranties honored). It had nothing to do with the greater larger macro economy.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    As for 198 or 274 hp being "underpowered"... okee doke.

    Hyundai /Kia have been known to WILDLY exaggerate some of their performance numbers (such as fuel milage).

    Wouldn't surprise me if you found some of the same at the Dyno with the HP and Torque numbers.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,665
    Wouldn't surprise me if you found some of the same at the Dyno with the HP and Torque numbers.

    Happened already; about 10 years ago.

    I've always used the butt-dyno...or performance specs. There is too much variation now with turbo (low torque), trannies (5 spd to 8 spd) and weight that the numbers don't mean anything anymore...to me anyway.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 227
    edited July 2013
    I was wondering if anyone with the 2013 accord has had any brake problems. It appears the 2008-2012 accord essentially "ate" disc brake pads, rotors and an occasional master cylinder. I think there was a class action suit against Honda and they did one change free. I hope they've taken care of the issue with the 2013s. My DIL has had her brakes done a number of times on her 2010. She's never had brakes replaced on anything before, but it seems she's done them perhaps 3 times on the accord. The most recent was just before she replaced her steering column, but I don't think that's a Honda-wide problem as much as an isolated incident.
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 932
    There was a problem with Honda Odysseys for which a recall was done. A small number of Accord owners complained of premature brake wear in the 2008-2010 Accords, but the number was not large enough to warrant a recall (I think under 1000 vehicles). There was a class action suit by this group, which Honda settled but did not admit any problem. It appears to have been confined to a small number of cars. Of course if you were the owner of one you would not be happy. Consumer Reports rated the Accord very highly for reliability in this period, meaning most of their very large sample did not have those kinds of problems.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 227
    There was a problem with Honda Odysseys for which a recall was done. A small number of Accord owners complained of premature brake wear in the 2008-2010 Accords, but the number was not large enough to warrant a recall (I think under 1000 vehicles). There was a class action suit by this group, which Honda settled but did not admit any problem. It appears to have been confined to a small number of cars. Of course if you were the owner of one you would not be happy. Consumer Reports rated the Accord very highly for reliability in this period, meaning most of their very large sample did not have those kinds of problems.

    WOW! I did a google on Honda class action lawsuits! AMAZING! It seems they have to be sued for just about everything. It wasn't just odyssey and accord, but civic and acuras. They have class action lawsuits about oil consumption in the V6 with VCM (I knew this was a problem, but didn't know about the class action lawsuit). I remember Toyota denied oil sludge problems until a class action lawsuit. I'm starting to think Honda and Toyota build it the best they can and if you're not happy about something you have to sue them.
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 932
    edited July 2013
    Don't know about other suits, but in this case there were not enough complaints to NHSTA to warrant a recall. Anyone can bring a lawsuit. That doesn't mean the sued party is guilty.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,695
    What's the matter, 0-60 in around 6 seconds not quick enough for you for a mid-sized family sedan?
  • cpalm1cpalm1 Posts: 9
    Are you aware that there are people out there that are extremely happy with their Hyundai products too? Of course, in 95 they were crap, just like the Neon.
    As for your bailout theory, keep in mind that those people could have merely set up a warranty fund for Americans instead of bailing out the companies.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    edited July 2013
    I stand corrected. I am far from familiar with all Camry owners, though I do know a few and was one myself. And thanks for characterizing my statement as outrageous. I like being that.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    High resale value is mostly one of those bill of goods we have been sold to justify our purchase...as if we need to do that.

    Cars with higher resale value are usually those that cost fairly close to (or sometimes even at or above) list price. Models with lower resale value are usually those that were discounted heavily when new--sometimes many thousands.

    A study done awhile back suggests it all comes out in the wash, so to speak. Whether you pay those extra thousands on initial purchase or upon trade-in, you tend to pay them one way or another. Buy what you want, and don't worry too much about re-sale. Your insurance company will pretty much act as the marketplace does.

    The cost of ownership charts you often see use resale value in their calculations, but what they do not do is take into account the average discount off list price model by model. If they did so, the lower resale value model would sometimes be the better deal after five years.

    Now, if you can buy at a huge discount a model that is in high demand both new and used, then you are on to something...
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,722
    edited July 2013
    I own a 2013 Accord. No brake problems so far.

    We also own a 2008 Accord that we bought new. The brake pads squeaked a little for about a year, and then Honda replaced them for free. End of story.

    Wayne: Why don't you google Ford or lawsuits? Or GM and lawsuits? Or Chrysler and lawsuits? I bet you'll find some stuff there too.

    I'm not sure your google search has proved much good or bad about any of these auto makers.

    Some manufacturers tend to make more reliable cars, others have had more problems.

    Generally Hondas and Toyotas are reliable.

    Most reviews say that the design, technology, safety, and performance of the Accord is in almost every way superior to the Camry. The only way the Camry is likely to be superior is that it's cheaper. Most car magazines say that the Accord is one of the very best midsize cars, ranking it either #1 or #2 in most comparison test. You can expect to pay a bit more to get the best.

    But big discounts are still available on the Accord. And they've added so much equipment to even the base LX model (alloy wheels, back up camera, blue-tooth, advanced engines and transmissions, etc.) that it's a very good deal for the money.

    But there are other great choices too--Ford's Fusion, KIA's Optima, the Mazda6, etc.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,468
    My 2001 Prelude Type SH is the quintessential over engineered, over built Honda designed in the mid 1990s. I didn't replace the front brakes until almost 90K miles (yes the car is 3000 lbs and a stick shift).

    Brakes are definitely somewhere that Honda has cut costs. My former 2010 Acura TSX had the rear brakes replaced at 32K miles. Now I paid to have them replaced and since my car was an early build 2010, I was reimbursed from the Class Action Lawsuit. I didn't care for how this was handled. After complaining about the brakes grinding and then asked they be replaced under warranty, my service adviser handed my wife a piece of paper with a website and how to get paid back. Still, Honda should have known there was a problem and covered the pads/rotor replacement.

    My wife's 2011 Pilot just had the rear brakes replaced & rotors resurfaced at 37K miles. I asked the service adviser what is the deal with rear brakes being replaced so early on such a nose heavy, FWD based car. He said: "Off the record, it is because the rear discs they put on the cars nowadays are about the size of an Oreo Cookie."

    Brakes are a big part of the driving experience for me. I always HATED the way the brakes on my Acura performed. The brakes on my current BMW are simply amazing. Firm pedal feel, easy to modulate, ABS only kicks in when absolutely necessary. It is widely know that the "M" in BMW stands for Motor. If I didn't know any better, I'd say the "B" stands for Brakes. The brakes on my BMW are so good, that I think there should be a law passed requiring other auto makers to have BMW design braking systems on every other car on the road.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,622
    Mazda certainly like to march to their own drummer.
    Skyactiv gas is high compression(13:1)/direct injection.
    The transmission is supposed to remain in lockup mode 90% of the time, most others are 50%.
    I don't think too many non hybrid cars use regen braking.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,209
    Yes, I have heard of this from a client who has a 2008 with a low 77k. He has been through 2 rear brake pads and one set of rotors after they warped.

    Even on my 94 SHO I didn't have to replace the rear brakes until 118 k (I think), and performance cars always have stickier friction surfaces (pads) which wear faster than the average sedan.

    I wonder if the rear brake problems on the 08 - 12 happened more often on the V6 models.
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