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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • So what do you call the Chevy SS? It's not a fullsize sedan, and it's not a compact sedan, so it must be a midsize sedan. Call it a muscle car or not, four doors + no hatchback = sedan.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    As long as you're pulling out comparos and quoting MT, did you see which car was MT's choice for full-sized sedan? The Cadenza.

    I agree few people will cross-shop the Impala and Mazda6. But we weren't talking cross-shopping. I know I'd never consider an Impala just because it's a bigger car than I need. I'd rather have a mid-sized car, one that can give me 40 mpg highway in real world driving like the Mazda6, or even the Sonata--40.0 mpg on a 150 mile trip yesterday. :-)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,686
    It's not a mid-sized family sedan. It's a muscle car, for people who have the need for that sort of thing.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    It is a midsize sedan with a powerful engine option...little different in concept from an E Class AMG or M5, but cheaper. Doesn't belong in mid-size family sedan comparison.
  • ahightowerahightower TXPosts: 470
    "at a Tundra pickup media event..."

    Speaking of struggling sales... Hell, I'd rather talk about Camry, too. The spokesman who has to go to the Tundra event must have lost the office lottery. Or they're hazing the new guy.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    That best, IMHO, describes the Accord's styling.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,186
    I just can't get with the front end on the Cadenza, and I like the way the Impala looks. Since you guys brought up the Impala and the Cadenza, I chimed in. To me, Impala is a pretty car. That's all. Back to mid size!
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,682
    edited July 2013
    "That best, IMHO, describes the Accord's styling."

    But best-in-class safety, acceleration (6MT or V-6), visibility, and standard features. Also best-in-class V-6 mpg.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    One thing that I've noticed owning a Ford is that the mpg that the computer displays seems to be a consistent 10% lower than what you actually get if you go by miles and amount filled. (same pump, same station, exact same filling technique every time)

    But MPG is a minor, minor thing. You couldn't get me to drive something like the Honda Insight. It's just plain flimsy and tacky inside. And while the Mazda 6 might be a slight bit better mechanically, it feels like cars did a decade ago. Basically like a giant version of the 3, which is such a disappointment of plastic and cheap. Rental car companies might love that, but no amount of cheap leather will fix sad designs like that.

    The auto magazines might like the Mazda. But actually drive the Fusion or something like a Passat and it's clear that Mazda needs to step up its game..
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Everyone has their own taste. The Mazda6 feels more refined than the Fusion to some of us, as well as to many auto review writers. The Fusion may be slightly more quiet at some speeds, but the drivetrain of the Mazda works better.

    Latest from Autoguide:
    http://www.autoguide.com/car-comparisons/2013-ford-fusion-vs-2014-mazda6-2611.ht- ml

    Here's the YouTube version:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5neeuak5Aw
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    Hyundai is ahead of the curve since they already dropped their V6 engine.
    New CAFE regs will force Toyota and Honda to do the same in the near future.
    I mean, even Buick is featuring a 4 cyl.

    Besides, a V6 really drives up the cost since it always forces buyers into other features they may not want.

    The non-hybrid 4's available in the Fusion really suck but they have hit a home run with the new Fusion hybrid.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Hyundai is ahead of the curve since they already dropped their V6 engine.
    New CAFE regs will force Toyota and Honda to do the same in the near future.

    Besides, a V6 really drives up the cost since it always forces buyers into other features they may not want.


    I have to disagree. Turbo engines come at a premium, and are only offered in higher-level trim packages. Honda is egregious in offering the V6 in only EX-L trim, but power and fuel economy numbers are very competitive with the turbo motors.

    Camry V6: 21/31 268 hp ($5,825 premium over base price)
    Accord V6: 21/34 278 hp ($8,390 premium over base price)
    Sonata 2.0: 22/34 274 hp ($3,900 premium over base price)
    Fusion 2.0: 22/33 240 hp ($4,735 premium over base price)
    Malibu 2.0: 21/30 259 hp ($5,415 premium over base price)


    So far, it appears in the real world that the larger displacement V6s are returning better economy than the turbocharged four-cylinder engines. Fueleconomy.gov reports as well as independent car-mags are proving this.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    I wasn't referencing the turbos.
    You do know the majority of Sonatas sold are normally aspirated I4s don't you?

    Their upgraded 2013 Sonata hybrid (with a 6 spd. transmission instead of a droning CVT found on most hybrids) is also selling well.

    And that $8400 over base is so not worth the $$$, IMO.

    Fuel economy for the V6s will never approach 40 mpg as selected 4 cyls. are already doing.

    By 2020 there won't be that many sixes offered by any car makers - note what BMW has been doing - unless the feds back off their mpg standards.
    Handwriting is on-the-wall
    Just a matter of time.
    3 cyl. engines are being explored and already offered in Europe.
    Audi will soon offer a diesel hybrid.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,428
    Actually Cr tested the Accord V-6 at 39 mpg highway going a steady 65 mph. Not too shabby - Sonata I4 was Also 39 mpg on the same test. But yes, still below "select" I4's like the Altima at 44 mpg Mada6 at 43 mpg and Accord I4 at 42 mpg.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,682
    edited July 2013
    EXL=$27,995 msrp
    EXLV6=30,070

    The difference there is only about 2k. That's the cost of the V-6 engine on the Accord then, c.$2000.

    But I do realize you have get up to the EXL to be able to get the V-6.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    Real world numbers . . .

    Just checked CR online which listed 30 mpg overall for the I4 and 26 for the V6 in their road tests.

    28 2013 Accords V6s on Fuely; highest was 30.5 and the lowest was 21.3.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I wasn't referencing the turbos.
    You do know the majority of Sonatas sold are normally aspirated I4s don't you?


    Yes. The majority of these cars are sold with their base engine (Accord 2.4L, Camry 2.5L, Altima 2.5L, etc), not the upper level, but you were discussing the upper level engines.

    You were talking V6s, so I brought up the competition - the 2.0L turbos offered by Chevy, Ford, and Hyundai/Kia.

    And, keep in mind I HAVE a Hyundai with an automatic, and have road tripped (1500+ mi apiece) in two Hyundais in the last 12 months. The CVT in the Accord is miles ahead of the auto in either Hyundai I've driven.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,682
    edited July 2013
    http://www.consumerreports.org/cro/magazine/2013/04/top-picks-2013/index.htm

    Looking for a new car? Start here. Our Top Picks are as close as it gets to “no-brainers” in the auto market. They’re impressive all-around vehicles, chosen from more than 280 we’ve recently tested, that have excelled in our testing, are reliable, and have performed well in independent crash tests....

    What it takes

    Top Picks must meet our criteria in three areas:

    Road test. Each must rank at or near the top of its category in overall test score.
    Reliability. Each must have earned an average or better predicted-reliability Rating, based on the problems Consumer Reports subscribers reported on 1.2 million vehicles in our latest Annual Auto Survey.
    Safety. Top Picks must perform adequately if tested in crash or rollover tests conducted by the government or insurance industry....

    Midsized sedan

    Honda Accord
    The Accord was redesigned for 2013, and Honda nailed it, sending this sedan to the top of its class. This new model is roomy, nice to drive, well equipped, and very fuel efficient. With its four-cylinder engine, the Accord squeezes out 30 mpg overall and 40 on the highway, which is as good as the tiny Honda Fit. Higher-trim models have safety features seldom found in this category. And the Accord’s price is very reasonable: $23,270 to $30,860.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,830
    edited July 2013
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  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 221
    edited July 2013
    Honda Accord
    The Accord was redesigned for 2013, and Honda nailed it, sending this sedan to the top of its class. This new model is roomy, nice to drive, well equipped, and very fuel efficient. With its four-cylinder engine, the Accord squeezes out 30 mpg overall and 40 on the highway, which is as good as the tiny Honda Fit. Higher-trim models have safety features seldom found in this category. And the Accord’s price is very reasonable: $23,270 to $30,860....Reliability. Each must have earned an average or better predicted-reliability Rating, based on the problems Consumer Reports subscribers reported on 1.2 million vehicles in our latest Annual Auto Survey. .


    I am a CR fan, but I think they are prejudging the accord. The 4 cyl has been completely redone and is also using direct inject for the first time and using a CVT for the first time. How does one measure reliability and durability of something that is its first year? (Honda's previous attempt with the CVT was in the civic hybrid and it was a disaster.) Additionally, the 6 cyl is using a 6 speed transmission for the first time in the accord. Yes, they use a 6 speed in the odyssey, but they have had lots of complaints about it. But for some reason they are giving it an ok with the accord. It reminds me of the motor trend car of the year in 1981 - the K-car. All looked good in the initial year, but time proved them wrong.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,614
    edited July 2013
    After you watch/read vehicle reviews, you can learn things by what is shown or talked about/not talked about.
    The 1.6 Fusion is not a performance vehicle, so it is not surprising that the Mazda 6 performed better, given a week of hard driving.
    The Fusion tested does have a higher MSRP, but just looking at the side view mirrors. I'm sure they both have heated side view mirrors, but the Fusion also has a built in wide angle, turn signals, puddle lamps, and Blind spot system.
    That's just the side view mirrors, and I'll bet there are a bunch of other features that are also much better on the Fusion.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited July 2013
    Your bias is showing.
    I lived with a Toyota CVT in a Highlander hybrid for 5 years.
    The droning, moto boarding effect was most noticeable when passing.

    Had a Prius for a loaner for two days and a good friend owns one.
    Ditto on the drone, etc.
    Honda’s CVT will act the same when u accelerate to pass.

    As far as the Hyundai 6 speed, here’s what CR said back in 2011: “The six-speed automatic transmission shifts very smoothly and responsively.”

    CR on the 2013 Sonata: “The midsized Sonata is among the best of the less-costly family sedans. It has a firm yet comfortable ride and handles quite nimbly. The base 200-hp, four-cylinder engine and smooth, responsive six-speed automatic returned an impressive 27 mpg overall.”

    Overall CR gave the Sonata a score of 89 and the Accord a 90; not a significant difference

    Oh, FYI, the CAFE standards are based on overall MPG, not just highway.

    And CR has THE best fuel mileage test of all.
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 930
    I have owned a 2013 Honda Accord CVT now for 4 months. There is no drone when passing or accelerating.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited July 2013
    Like when a boat gets up on a plane; lots of revving before settling down to speed.
    A friend of mine sells Hondas and I shall test drive one to see if they have been able to improve on the CVT; all the others I have experience with have this annoying trait.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 221
    edited July 2013
    Like when a boat gets up on a plane; lots of revving before settling down to speed.
    A friend of mine sells Hondas and I shall test drive one to see if they have been able to improve on the CVT; all the others I have experience with have this annoying trait.


    If you drive it would you please see if you have wind noise coming in the driver's door. I've read a lot about people complaining about wind noise from the top and rear of the driver's door and was wondering if it was a common thing. Thank you. Also, please check to see if there is any "transmission shutter" at low rpms shortly after taking off and just prior to stopping (10-20 mph range). These are the two issues that I've read the most about, but I haven't driven one yet.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,682
    I own a 2013 Accord with the CVT. My car doesn't have any of those issues. Why don't you test drive one yourself?
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    For about $28,500 you can get the most advanced hybrid out there in Limited trim.
    That includes leather heated seats front AND rear, leather steering wheel and shifter,
    17” alloys, a killer 400 watt Infinity stereo w/ 8 speakers, an external amp, and a subwoofer, a 7” touch screen NAV system with a back-up camera, auto dimming mirror w/ compass, and Blue Link, Hyundai‘s much improved version of OnStar.

    The only option on a Ltd. Is the panoramic tilt-and-slide sunroof which bumps up the price by $1,000.
    Base model hybrids w/o the above reputedly can be had for under $24K but they are few-and-far-between.

    A comparable Camry or Fusion sells for thousands more and I am sure Honda Corp will price their hybrid even higher.

    This makes the Hyundai hybrids a screaming deal.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,186
    edited July 2013
    I have the same 2.4 I-4 and 6 speed auto combo in my Optima. With 200 HP and 186 lb ft standard, I was hoping to not miss the turbo. I continue to be impressed with this powertrain. Very smooth, refined, and efficient. The trans always delivers the right gear at the right time. As time passed I realized just how high performance this engine is. Try to imagine it as half of a V8. Hypothetically, if I added another 2.4 liter bank of pistons that were connected at the crank, it would be a 4.8 liter, 400 HP motor..with 372 lb ft! My old Jeep G/C had a 4.7 liter V8, cranking out a relatively low 235 HP. (300 lb ft).

    Determined to get better F/E, I did my research and decided to buy the Optima EX. I wanted the (non-hybrid) model with the best chance at getting good F/E numbers (24/35). Unfortunately, those numbers remain out of my reach. Due to the area I live in, my average speed is 26 mph, and I am not able to get over 22.5 mpg, especially over the past few months with the A/C cranked.

    So, it seems all those Prius and other hybrid owners have the right idea, as tooling around the city at low speeds requires only electric power for the most part, saving a bundle at the pump. Live and learn! :shades:
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 221
    edited July 2013
    I own a 2013 Accord with the CVT. My car doesn't have any of those issues. Why don't you test drive one yourself?

    I would not consider buying a first year car and that is essentially what the new accord is. I had an accord for 13 years and could never get rid of the wind noise from the A pillar. From what I have read, wind noise on the A pillar has been a problem on the accord since its introduction in 1976. (One would think they could have taken care of that issue in all those years. It seems they may have moved the noise from the A pillar to the middle and back of the window, but not gotten rid of it.) I also had three replacement transmissions (under warranty) in my 2000 accord and know of Honda's long history of transmission problems - not just with the accord. I would still consider an accord, but wouldn't remotely consider one with the new technology (direct inject and cvt) so it's not worth the effort for me to drive one, but if someone else is going to do so I would like to know his assessment, particularly since krypto gave an exact description (and unpleasant experience) of the only cvt vehicle I've driven (I rented a 2013 Altima).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    edited July 2013
    Your bias is showing.

    As is yours. You can't seem to avoid talking about the Sonata, even when nobody brings it up in conversation.

    I lived with a Toyota CVT in a Highlander hybrid for 5 years.
    The droning, moto boarding effect was most noticeable when passing.


    Not all CVTs are created equally (or programmed equally, for that matter). Comparing a 6+ year old design from a different manufacturer, linked to a hybrid powertrain in a 4500-lb SUV with a V6 to a family car weighing 3200-lbs, a four-cylinder, and no hybrid is no comparison at all.

    And CR has THE best fuel mileage test of all.

    Says... who?

    Overall CR gave the Sonata a score of 89 and the Accord a 90; not a significant difference

    Agreed. The Sonata is a good car. The Accord, by every journalist's opinion I can find, is an even better one, but it doesn't suit everyone's taste. Drive what you like, like what you drive. :)
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