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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Here is the thing that gets me, trying to compare the Hybrid version to a Lessor model. For the Prius, there is NO comparison, none whatsoever.

    I would say a Civic or a Corolla. One of which is infinitely more engaging to drive while returning stellar highway fuel economy. This whole game to make the Prius a midsized vehicle from the EPAs point of view is great, but in real life, my 18 month old, my wife, and myself couldn't fit 2 carry-on bags and a stroller in my MIL's Prius for a 3 day trip. When we tried to add her grandma and the walker, there was no way. The rental Fusion (and for that matter, my MIL's old '96 Accord) had no problems, and for those trips we had to bring sleeping bags.

    The days of the SUV and mini van are slowly coming to an end as gas goes up again, car manufactures need to take that into consideration when building cars, need to make them just a little bigger inside without compromising fuel efficiency.

    I don't know about that...I think the people that need an SUV will buy one (to pull a boat or a trailer, or drive a lot of kids around) and people that need a minivan will buy one (families, people who need the utility, etc).

    I think the people who bought an SUV as a status symbol will move on to something else (perhaps a Prius) and the order will be restored. I think another issue with "minivans" is they aren't "mini" anymore. They are bigger than the short wheelbase full size vans of the past. Vans like the Mazda5 (which still hasn't really caught on) or a C-Max are more what I think of as minivans.

    If its one person commuting by themselves every day and thats about it, I think a Prius is fine, if they like that kind of thing.
  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    Punch the numbers. You will pay at least $4,000 - $5,000 more for a Hybrid vehicle upfront. A good 4cyl sedan will get you at least 30-35 MPG Hwy. $4,000 dollars will buy you a whole lot of gas over the lifetime of a vehicle. Not to mention the battery life on these Hybrids... noone really knows how long they will last. Cost of replacement can run you upwards of $3,000!! ouch!!
    On another note however. Environmental cost is another factor for some. A hybrid will use far less oil/fuel and spew out far less emmissions over its lifetime. As more and more of these Hybrids become available to consumers and as they become more mass produced. Prices will fall. Economics 101....
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Yeah, she won't be replacing the minivan (90 something Sienna) with another minivan. That was just for the sake of comparison. There is actually nothing wrong with it, so she is likely to not replace it at all right now...my folks like to be able to put their bikes in the back and can't seem to grasp the concept of a trailer hitch mounted bike rack.

    If/when she does replace the van, it will very likely be a midsize sedan. I don't care what the EPA says, I have enough personal experience to say the Prius isn't midsize to me. The other issue to contend with is she has yet to have a favorable interaction with a Prius, so in reality, thats not in the running. I don't like the car either so that isn't helping, but I don't like the car she has now either, but its not my car. I will strongly object to anything I think totally sucks, but who am I to decide what fits her needs?

    Gas has been predicted to be at sub-$3 for the next year (as stated in April) so I am not worried about that right this second, and that will put off payback further.

    Right now she is kind of keen on the FuLans, but still undecided about the FFH vs. the 4 cyl SEL. She said the Camry is too "little old lady" for her (that cracked me up...before she got the van she said she was considering a full size Buick!), and she doesn't like the way the new Accord looks. She likes my Accord but wants a slushbox so that easy out is blocked. And she won't go for a European car.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Not to mention the battery life on these Hybrids... noone really knows how long they will last. Cost of replacement can run you upwards of $3,000!! ouch!!

    California has like a 10 year 100k warranty on the battery packs. That and of all the Priuii I know out west, including the 1st gens, no one needed a new battery pack.

    On another note however. Environmental cost is another factor for some. A hybrid will use far less oil/fuel and spew out far less emissions over its lifetime.

    Follow the carbon footprint of the Prius being made and you will see things balance out more. And EOL is still an issue.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,631
    Have your or your mom seen and driven the 2010 Prius yet? If not, you might want to before passing judgment on it. It's supposed to be roomier and drive better also.

    But if she wants a mid-sized sedan, there's many good ones to choose from. A key thing is how much of her driving is short trips around town. In that kind of scenario, a car that can drive on electric power a lot (e.g. FFH or Prius) could be a big advantage.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    This is an edmunds.com discussion forum.
    Edmunds says the Prius is a compact.
    :P ;)
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    And EOL is still an issue.

    What's EOL stand for?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,631
    In length, yes. In interior room, it's a mid-sized car. Even more so for the 2010 MY.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    I will point out again that for those who believe that EPA interior volume measurement is the ultimate arbitor of vehicle size class, that the following are some of the cars they call compacts:

    Pontiac G6
    Honda Accord Coupe
    VW Passat CC
    Chrysler Sebring Convertible
    Subaru Legacy

    Midsize, according to EPA, include:
    Nissan Versa and Sentra
    Hyundai Elantra

    Large cars, per EPA include:
    Honda Accord Sedan
    Hyundai Sonata

    So in your world...
    The Malibu is midsize, the G6 is not.
    Neither the the Accord Coupe, nor the Sedan are midsize.
    Hyundai makes a midsize, but it is not the Sonata.
    Nissan makes three midsize cars.
    Subaru makes no midsize cars.

    ...and of course most important of all, the Prius is a midsize car.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    For the record, and for nit-pickiness' sake, the majority of Accord sedans sold are midsize, since only the LX and LX-P do not come with a moonroof.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Follow the carbon footprint of the Prius being made and you will see things balance out more

    With many of today's 4 cyl engines being PZEV vehicles that emit "partial zero emissions" (mine being one), I feel pretty good that I am doing my part for the environment considering I also keep $$ in my pocket by not buying a hybrid. That $$ I can spend and also help the economy. Looks like I can kill two birds with one stone!

    Funny you used the term "carbon footprint". Senator Nancy Pelosi is the biggest advocate of Americans reducing their "carbon footprint". She also rejected the FREE small private jet she is allowed to use to travel back and forth from Cali to DC and insisted she "needed" a Boeing 767 to use twice a week to travel. This 767 uses $3.5M in fuel a year. What on God's green Earth is SHE doing about her carbon footprint?? I think she has the biggest of all footprints!! (sorry for the political direction)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,898
    In interior room, it's a mid-sized car

    Does EPA reference interior "volume" or interior "room" as you state? IMO the two terms are not the same. A lot of normally unused space can be part of a larger volume(like the huge space above the Prius dashboard) while not equating to driver/passenger room.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,631
    Since the Prius (even the smaller 2009 model) has more usable rear-seat legroom than many so-called "mid-sized" cars, that is much more important to me than how much air is over the dashboard, or overhead (which is how some cars gain a big volume number), or over the rear package shelf, or whereever it is.

    Sure, I can buy a car that is a foot or more longer than a Prius, and then I benefit by having what is officially per Edmunds.com a 'mid-sized" car. That car may have less room for people and cargo than the Prius (refer to list posted above). But hey, I get all that extra front/rear overhang, so the car is harder to park. I also get a trunk vs. a more versatile hatch. Yep, lots of benefit to me to get one of those Official Edmunds.com Mid-Sized Sedans. :P
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,631
    Subaru makes no midsize cars.

    Hey, I guess Edmunds.com agrees with you. I don't see any Subarus here! Nor the G6, Passat CC, or Sebring (convertible or otherwise).

    :D
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,898
    or over the rear package shelf, or whereever it is.

    Where else would I put my little stuffed doggy with the turn signal eyes? ;)

    All that air(interior volume) above the dash of the Prius was just what I was talking about. Empty, unusable space that the EPA includes in their volume stats. If rear seat legroom is the one criteria that floats your boat that's great. I am in my car probably 95% of the time by myself and personally consider the front seat hip/shoulder/leg/head dimensions to be the most important numbers for comfort. I also like a long wheelbase for ride comfort.

    We all look for different things as important to us. I tend to like a little more metal around me so I tend to lean towards the more traditional midsize cars Even though I know that smaller vehicles can be made pretty safe.....I just feel a little better in a larger car. But that's just me and I can appreciate the desire of someone to want as small as package as possible to satisfy their wants of ease of parking, maneuvering etc.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,459
    the point i was trying to make is that some vehicle's actual mileage varies quite a bit form the EPA estimates, but others don't. my explorer will not get much better than the EPA highway, no matter what the circumstances.
    my mother's mid size malibu pretty much matches the 33 highway rating.
    so far, i have not been able to match the 27 mpg highway estimate on the 2 long trips I have takenin my 07 fusion awd, but they weren't the best of circumstances.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    The way they determine the size of a car, is interior room + trunk space. The Camry has total x amount of space, and meets a certain level to be judged mid size, I dont have the numbers, nor the time currently to pull them up, but will later when I have time. The Prius because of the cargo room behind the rear seat puts the interior room into the mid size class. Interior room/volume is cubic feet, measured by head room, shoulder room, hip room, and leg room plus cargo space. They don't measure the area above the dash, nor the area behind the rear seats( except hatchbacks). Take away the cargo room, and the Prius does fall into the compact class equal to the Civic and Corolla, though a little more room than both. The prius is a hatchback, the rest are 4 door sedans, makes a big difference when classing the cars. The way I still look at it is the Prius is in a class by itself. The Prius does have more rear leg room than most other cars in in all classes, but lacks front leg room. If they put a telescopic steering wheel, then leg room is resolved. That was one of my biggest beefs. I had to stretch my arms out to be comfortable in the legs, but made my arms tired, so I had to put the seat back nearly all the way forward, which was not as comfortable as I liked, made long drives longer as I had to stop often to stretch out my back. With that and the lack of hip room in the back, needed 3" to be perfect, I decided to get rid of it, otherwise it was an OK car.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    Thanks, that is another example of the silliness of relying on EPA to define the term "mid-size car". If having or not having a sunroof affects the classification it clearly is not something to be relied on for this purpose.

    Nonsensical things like that, corporate twins like the G6 and Malibu falling in different size classes, and the other things I posted demonstrate not which cars are mid-size and which are not, but does demonstrate that one would be foolish to think that the EPA's definition is all that matters.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,898
    Thanks for providing some detail on the EPA's way of measuring interior volume. If factual I was wrong about the "over dash" space being included. It's nice to see they are using some common sense in their measurements but then again it's obvious how the Prius was put into the midsize class by them.....the space behind the back seats!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,631
    No one here has even suggested that we take the EPA's definition as the only determinant of what constitutes a "mid-sized" car. Interior room is only one aspect of "size". As is exterior size. It seems some (like Edmunds.com) use exterior size exclusively in determining car classes--hence they put cars like the Legacy into the mid-sized class and cars like the Prius into the compact class. Others like the EPA focus on interior volume. There's no one right way to do it. As long as it's clear what the classification scheme is and it's applied consistently, one way is as valid as any other. Use whatever scheme works for you. If it makes you feel good to think of the Prius as a compact and the Versa as a subcompact, for example, great. Others will respectfully disagree.
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