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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,341
    edited July 2013
    Krypto, I drive a 2012 Optima EX. For all intents and purposes its drivetrain and weight make it a Sonata clone. Driving around the DC area there is almost no way to drive in the fashion I would need to in order to get F/E that anywhere near resembles Hyundai/Kia published figures.

    They should not have embellished in the first place. The public is already angry about their expensive new "efficient" cars that can't meet EPA figures. I am one of them. 24 mpg my a**. It is 19.4 right now on my IP-FE computer.
    I think the entire EPA system needs a re-think. In this area we have to keep up with traffic light to light, and everyone is stressed out and tired of sitting. I am sure it is far more likely one could get 24/35 mpg numbers in Nebraska, but here? No way.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    That is from 2011; Consumer Reports have yet to test the upgraded version.

    The article says that it was updated as of June 2013.


    BTW, Toyota is scrambling to redesign the '12 Camry as it failed the offset-crash-test.

    What has that got to do with hybrid mpg? I guess BTW, Hyundai was caught lying about their hp ratings in the past and their mpg numbers recently. Is that also pertinent?

    I'm not bashing the Sonata. It's a fine car. It's just not the best things since sliced bread the way you think it is. All these cars have some specs that are better than others and some areas where they aren't. Hyundai interior looks are great but IMO their quality is very lacking. The suspension and handling of most Hyundai products are not anywhere up to par with the leaders in this group like Accord, Mazda6 and Passat. Sonata excels in value for the buck but if you want a little more precision engineering and quality trappings than you have to pay a few more bucks. Cheap leather does not make a luxury car.

    This whole discussion lately reminds me of teenagers bragging about their rides. Everyone is scouring the internet trying to find the good reviews of their respective cars and posting huge excerpts to make a point. It's kind of tedious.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    I'm sure that Hyundai states in the fine print like all other brands that the city number and hwy number are an average for a range. The city number is probably about 18-26mpg and the hwy probably like 32-39mpg or something to that effect. If you do nothing but what is considered dense, urban stop and go traffic then you should expect to get somewhere in the lowest part of that "range", or 18-20mpg. The guy in Nebraska may do more like the 24-26mpg for his city driving. The EPA tries to account for the vast extremes by stating these ranges and just give the 24/35 numbers for a general comparison between cars. They aren't saying that no matter how or where you drive that you should expect to get those numbers. I would dare to say that you took your car out on the expressway on a Sunday when traffic was light and drove a steady 65mph or maybe even 70mph, you would see that 35mpg number.

    I live in the Chicago suburbs and don't have to drive in rush traffic to any extent. I get pretty much the EPA numbers for both city and hwy. If I lived and drove at rush hour and lived more in towards downtown Chicago I have no doubt my numbers would be substantially lower in that EPA range and I wouldn't be getting close to the EPA combined number that I am now.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    edited July 2013
    This whole discussion lately reminds me of teenagers bragging about their rides. Everyone is scouring the internet trying to find the good reviews of their respective cars and posting huge excerpts to make a point. It's kind of tedious.

    You find it tedious, I find it hilarious. ;)

    Hyundai interior looks are great but IMO their quality is very lacking.

    I've actually been quite pleased with the quality of my Sonata's interior (2009 GLS, sunroof, popular equipment package). It's held up well. The car now has 108,000 miles on it, and the only visible sign of wear is the driver's seat; it has had a noticeable "wrinkle" in the fabric since about 50,000 miles, and is starting to feel a little bit wimpy in the support department. They were squishy to begin with, though.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,548
    >I find it hilarious.

    A friend has a recently new Sonata and he's getting a check from Hykia for an amount to adjust for the promised fuel mileage compared to the true fuel mileage. I don't recall how long that's supposed to go on.

    I find that interesting that they are having to pay their buyers.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    I've actually been quite pleased with the quality of my Sonata's interior

    Yeah, quality is a hard term to define in here. I guess "finish" would be a better word. A fabric, plastic or leather may hold up well but in the look, and more importantly the feel, there can be big differences. Also, gaps and alignment also play a factor when I look at something and decide how much quality engineering and manufacturing quality control went into it. Switchgear is another area that can look very much the same but the feel is very different.
  • jplatt2jplatt2 Posts: 24
    Everything CR does is better, didn't you know?

    As far as I'm concerned, they are the only "tell it like it really is" publication still around. They won loyalty by telling the truth, it all comes down to trust. They've EARNED that trust over the years.


    As far as I'm concerned, they are the only "tell it like it really is" publication still around. They won loyalty by telling the truth, it all comes down to trust. They've EARNED that trust over the years.

    I've been a subscriber to Consumer Reports since 1988 but I do agree with others that there is a bias, and I have written to them about it.
    Their top family car has been the Accord. For the previous generation Accord, except for the 2011 model year, the Accord only earned three stars on the rear passenger crash test, one of the few cars to earn such a low score. How can you recommend it as the top family car when family cars have children sitting in the rear? Just my luck, we had to take the car away from my mother-in-law and she had a 2010. Made my four foot son sit in a car seat in the middle.

    Unless they have changed their practices, they sell the cars they test to their employees. Why not auction them off to the public to maximize their funding? Let's not put them on a pedestal.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Yeah, quality is a hard term to define in here. I guess "finish" would be a better word. A fabric, plastic or leather may hold up well but in the look, and more importantly the feel, there can be big differences. Also, gaps and alignment also play a factor when I look at something and decide how much quality engineering and manufacturing quality control went into it. Switchgear is another area that can look very much the same but the feel is very different.
    My first car was a 1996 Accord. The 90s were a time when fit, finish, and switchgear were second-to-none in Honda and Toyota offerings. Even Corollas and Civics felt like a million-bucks when you turned on your blinker. I had that car until 2011; it had 235,000 miles on it, averaged 30mpg, and had no mechanical issues when an 18-wheeler totaled it on I-65. I say that to explain that I completely understand what you mean! Hondas operate with an "oiled-precision" feel in the details that my Hyundai lacks.

    The Sonata shows no age in how its switchgear operates. Admittedly, it lacks the finesse of the Accord when flipping on the high-beams (a noisy thunk with a plasticky feeling), or pushing the "A/C" button (there's no positive action, just a wiggly button - I've never liked that). But, in wear and tear, I have zero complaint. Everything functions as it did when I first bought the car. No burned-out bulbs, no scrapes or fading paint on button-graphics. I'm pleased, considering the bang for the buck. Everything functions as advertised 4.5 years and 108,000 miles later, and it looks and feels no worse for the wear.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    The mileage kickback $$ was Hyundai's idea.
    Its good for the life of the car.
    We got $160 back on our 2011 hybrid before we traded it on a 2013.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    There is nothing in the CR statement that says each vehicle is tested exactly the same. They are all measured the same.
    East Haddam is on Route 9, so I can see why they test at 65 mph. It is kind of hilly, so in some vehicles it's better to go a bit faster, so it doesn't downshift.
    I can see why they don't do that, though.
    Is it a good measurement? Who knows.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    There is nothing in the CR statement that says each vehicle is tested exactly the same.

    I think it would be extremely stupid of CR to NOT test each vehicle the same. They're whole premise is unbiased and fair testing of products so why wouldn't they test cars the same when it seems every other thing that they test they test exactly the same for comparison purposes. Do they really have to spell something like that out? I guess there will be conspiracy theorists for everything unless they see with their own eyes.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    Yes I am a skeptic and would need to see some evidence that the tests were substantially the same in any comparison.
    I remember watching a video of 2 small pickups on a rock climbing test. Pickup A had an off road package and pickup B has street tires.
    Conclusion? Pickup A was better than pickup B.
    Were they measured the same? Yes, Fair test?
    I'm expecting my Fusion to take about 10k to fully break in, based on the other Fords I own or have owned.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    Safety is but one factor. Rear seat side impact safety further dissects that narrow factor; it is such a minuscule issue in the grand scheme of things.

    That being said, CR weighs safety heavily, and despite that, the Honda's have always scored well, probably because they are extremely safe cars in the grand scheme of things. Also, in the past they've led the competition by such a grand margin that one thing like rear-side safety would be overshadowed and outweighed.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    CR lost all credibility when they gave the Tesla 99 out of 100 even though it has a ginormous touch screen in the center of the dash after they killed Ford for MFT.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    Maybe Tesla's touchscreen actually works well. CR is, by far, not alone in their criticism of MFT. It's pretty widespread and that is why Ford is backtracking and now going to put knobs and dials back in soon. They just gave Chevy Impala huge kudos so I'm sure that upsets a Ford fan as well. Don't let your obvious love of Ford color your subjectivity. I like Ford just fine and think they have done some very good things but they have also screwed up royally at times just like everybody else. Cars are so complex it's impossible to be perfect.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Hang in there m6, you're doin' good..

    If only Ford deserved the level of blind loyalty I've read in the last few pages.. :P
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    They dislike MFT because you have to take your eyes off the road (according to them). The Tesla is far worse in that regard yet it gets praised. This has nothing to do with Ford. CR tries hard but they still have biases and inconsistencies. Look at the 2013 Escape. A few months ago it was mid pack yet in the current issue it's #1. There is plenty of blame for Ford these days - just be consistent and logical about it.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    To be fair, akirby, even if many functions can be controlled from the steering wheel. I still maintain that with all the idiot-proofing that goes into modern vehicles, people are basically tactile in nature. They are use to 'hands-on' and while the functions may be there as potential hand's-on at the steering wheel, our basic human nature is to gravitate our hands to the area of the function that we want to control. So because of that, Ford should have had knobs at the scene of what they want to control, from the get-go..
    I have spoken to many friends that are more comfortable reaching to the area of control that they have been most accustomed to for many many decades. So for Ford to assume that redundant steering wheel controls will be accepted by the masses, was naive at the very least, IMO.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    So by that logic the Tesla is even worse with no knobs at all, yet CR says it's a 99 out of 100. See the hypocrisy?

    Again I'm not defending Ford. They've had problems. But that doesn't mean all the criticism is warranted or fair.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,048
    I think part of the problem with Ford's MFT is that the function "buttons" on the screen are very small and there is so much going on that it is hard to put your finger in the exact spot necessary. When I test drove an Edge I noticed that a lot. The salesman was trying to get the voice commands to work but they didn't. No tactile feedback when you push the "button" also doesn't give you any assurance that the right spot was pushed so you look at the screen to figure it out and take your eyes off the road.

    I haven't even sat in a Tesla(just seen pictures) so I can't comment on it too much. But obviously since CR found so much wrong with MFT, I'm sure they spent time making sure the Tesla's controls didn't have the same problems. It may be the difference between touching the screen on your smartphone versus touching huge characters on a 21" monitor. Big difference. There may be haptic (sp?)feedback on the Tesla as well which would give one some positive feedback. Like I said, I don't know that much about the Tesla controls. I would dare say you're not an expert on the Tesla either so it may be very premature for you to be calling anybody a hypocrite.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited August 2013
    I'm not defending Tesla or CR. Tesla has a loooong way to go. My first post in this
    - edit- pardon me..I mean the Tesla thread indicated my some of my reservations with them. And CR has had questionable credibility in my memory from back when they condemned the Suzuki Samurai saying that it was too easy to roll over. I've owned 3 of them and while they are obviously not as well planted as other lower COG vehicles, I can absolutely assure any skeptics, that driver ERROR was behind any rollover. Some people simply shouldn't drive. I've seen CR get on other's cases too... much more recently than that and sometimes they just get a bug in their ear on some vehicles for a few years or so. They even went after Camry for something a few years ago and while I forget what it was, I do remember dismissing their beef at the time with similar conviction as the heat they put on Suzuki.

    As for their fuel mileage testing, I'd vote for them to be as useful if not a bit moreso than EPA. Used together, I'd say a consumer should have a fair idea of expected FE when cross shopping.

    Yes, haptic tech is probably standard fare on the Tesla..or given the price of them..it should be..
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    They dislike MFT because you have to take your eyes off the road

    And that it routinely crashes, reboots, freezes... It does everything but pee in your cheerios.

    It's not a bad system intuition-wise... when it works. I do think deleting a true knob for volume and tuning is always a bad idea.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    Seems to be a huge problem that you have to navigate thru so many layers to operate the radio.
    The BlueLink systems on Hyundais have simple controls for the radio.
    Ford has had many, many, issues with MFT and if they are smart they will start from scratch.

    And trusty Consumer Reports is but one among many that have pointed out the flaws with it.
    Even John Davis on Motorweek has spoken about the problems in reviews of several different Ford products.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    "Hyundai: Real World Fuel Economy Improved To Meet Expectations, Not a Window Sticker

    Many mid sized sedans include some version of an average mpg display.
    On another Hyundai forum there have been many posts about it being incorrect on Sonata Hybrids because the odometer reading / gallons replaced calculation often produces a lower figure.
    However, you cannot assume the odometer is accurate anymore than you can assume the average display is wrong.

    From a number of long distance drives performed in the 2011 and 2012 Hyundai Sonata Hybrid, we have shown that the aFCD (averaging fuel consumption display) over reports by 2.0% compared to fuel consumed over odometer miles traveled.
    Opposing that over report, the odometer/Trip A/B under reports miles traveled by slightly more than 2.0% leading to an overall slightly pessimistic display vs. actual fuel economy.

    In other words, you receive slightly more than the display reveals.

    link title"

    Hyundai’s BlueDrive moniker is becoming a force in 2013 Sonata sales as consumers purchase the Hybrid 8.7% of the time, up from 7.5% in 2012.

    Wayne Gerdes is the guy that drove a 2011 Sonata Hybrid coast-to-coast on two tanks of gas.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,786
    edited August 2013
    the graduate wrote:

    "My first car was a 1996 Accord. The 90s were a time when fit, finish, and switchgear were second-to-none in Honda and Toyota offerings. Even Corollas and Civics felt like a million-bucks when you turned on your blinker. I had that car until 2011; it had 235,000 miles on it, averaged 30mpg, and had no mechanical issues when an 18-wheeler totaled it on I-65. I say that to explain that I completely understand what you mean! Hondas operate with an "oiled-precision" feel in the details that my Hyundai lacks."

    My first Accord was a 2002, but I know what you mean. The whole idea of the Accord, starting way back in 1976, was that middle class people could afford really well engineered and built cars.

    That's really true with the 2013 Accord in my opinion. It's a big step up from my 08 Accord. I think of it as our "Acura Accord." I love the way the turn signal knob feels on this model so that it's very precise and elegant. They've even engineered the "blink" noise for the blinker to sound a little more upscale than the previous generation. So far the details on this generation seem impressive to my family.
  • jplatt2jplatt2 Posts: 24
    Boy are you missing the point. The Accord is FAMILY sedan. Child safety is paramount and a recommendation for a family car should reflect that. Wonderful car though for couples without kids in the backseat. I have no problem now with CR recommending the new Accord since the redesign tests great.
  • ahightowerahightower TXPosts: 512
    Agreed. Rode in a buddy's '08 and it's impressive how many little things have been updated in my '13.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    CR's complaints about MFT had nothing to do with screen size or button size or placement. They said that it's dangerous because you have to take your eyes off the road to use it. There is nothing Tesla could have done with their touch screen to change that. Classic double standard. Personally I don't have a problem with either one.

    I use MFT every day. I only use the touchscreen to go back and forth between navigation and entertainment and to change from usb drive to Sirius. I use the steering wheel controls to change the auto temp up or down, change the volume, change tracks or stations. I use voice control to select a playlist, artist or song from the usb drive. It's no worse than traditional controls.

    Yes, MFT had tons of bugs and was almost unusable in some vehicles the first 6 months. It still has minor bugs and can be slow to respond. Could the addition of hard knobs help? Sure, especially with climate control.

    But 80% of current MFT users/owners would recommend the system to others, so it can't be nearly as bad as CR and some of the other media make it out to be.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    And that it routinely crashes, reboots, freezes

    The early versions - yes. Not the later versions. The current version is very stable with hardly any crashes or freezes being reported outside of a few people with hardware problems. A new update is due out next month or two that supposedly makes it much faster and even more stable with some GUI improvements as well.

    The early criticism was well deserved but those major problems were fixed 18 months ago. I've had my 2013 Fusion with MFT since February and my daughter has had it in her 2012 Focus for over 18 months. I've never had a freeze or reboot and she hasn't had any since upgrading to the latest software a few months ago. Even before that it only happened about 3 times in 12 months.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    Seems to be a huge problem that you have to navigate thru so many layers to operate the radio.

    Obviously you've never used it. You touch the lower left corner of the home screen and from that screen you can change sources, change stations and access all the other features. How is that "so many layers"?

    If you're going to bash something at least spend a little time understanding it first.
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