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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 2,380
    edited August 2013
    And they routinely offer 0% on the hybrid version, something Toyota almost never does.
    Honda will most assuredly follow the midsized sedan leader Camry in trying to max out profits by doing the same whenever their hybrid hit’s the lots.


    Don't be ridiculous. 0% financing is just a promotional tool, designed to generate potential buyer interest, and move the metal. It is no different than a rebate or other cash-back offer. Any manufacturer only does that when they are trying to meet sales targets and reduce inventory.

    2014 Cadillac ATS4 2.0T, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,918
    You sure don't come across as a loyal Hyundai owner.

    I'm quite sure he never said he was a loyal Hyundai owner. Liking one's current vehicle and being "loyal" to the brand are two entirely different matters. In fact, very few longer-term members in this discussion could be described as "loyal" to a particular manufacturer, preferring instead to peruse the offerings available near the time of purchase... or just keep abreast of them in case something strikes their fancy.

    This isn't a competition about who can come up with the most "evidence" supporting their vehicle's superiority. The fact is that there are a number of good vehicles in this segment right now, and a lot of it comes down to preferences - there's no one vehicle that has it all, and is going to be the right fit for every person. Let's stop trying to make this a battle to the death.

    Members who've been around long enough know why this discussion has a "2.0" tacked onto the end, and we don't want it to go that way again.

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  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,456
    They need promotional tools when sales are not as expected.

    I wonder why the sales are not as expected - maybe because the vehicle is wildly successful and outperforms all other hybrids hands down. ;) Or maybe it is something else. :surprise:
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    Just testing my memory. You drove that Accord while you were in college. It was gray with manual trans? You did not go to college in Alabama?
  • I'm new to the forum but have been reading user and website reviews of midsize sedans for several months now in anticipation of purchasing within the next month or two. The problem with reviews is that you see so many, sometimes conflicting opinions that it's hard to know what to really believe. My last purchase was a 2009 Hyndai Sonata which has been a very reliable, smooth-riding car that has required no maintenance at all to date, but I hate the numb steering which leaves me less than confident while driving it.

    So I'm looking for good steering feedback, good ride quality and reliability. Fuel efficiency is secondary as I don't drive that many miles per year. Which of the above 3 models would be the best choice?
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,972
    You need to drive them all and decide for yourself.
    Personally, I like heavy steering, which you can't find anymore in new cars, although there are a few that have adjustable steering effort.
    I'm guessing your meant no repairs instead of no maintenance?
  • Yep, no repairs only fuel and oil changes.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    Fusion and Mazda6 are known for their steering and handling. The Malibu - not so much.
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 2,380
    I have read that the 2013 Malibu has good steering feel. Maybe you are thinking of the earlier model?

    2014 Cadillac ATS4 2.0T, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    It might be different but there isn't much precedence for that with Fwd GM sedans.
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 2,380
    I was going by what thecarconnection.com said in their review.

    2014 Cadillac ATS4 2.0T, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    If they are smart Honda Corp will shed the V6s sooner rather than later as Hyundai and now Ford have done with their mid sized offerings.

    Why would Honda get rid of a class-leading 278 HP V6 engine? What other mid-size sedans come with that much power?

    It also gets pretty good mileage, and for the CVT haters (although I hate CVT's I don't hate Honda's after a test-drive), it has the fantastic 6-speed automatic. It's like a low-cost Acura TL FWD.

    I think if your buying the Accord as a family mid-size sedan, you'd be wise to take the extra 90 HP and go with the V6 for not that much more money. If your buying the Accord for the driving experience, perhaps an argument could be made for the lighter smaller engine allowing better handling.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    Why would Honda get rid of a class-leading 278 HP V6 engine?

    Honda will follow Hyundai and Ford and drop the V6 because of fuel economy.
    The CAFE regs escalate the mpg ratings rapidly in the near future so car makers really don't have a choice.

    Hybrids,
    Diesels,
    Hybrid Diesels and
    even three cylinders are going to sweep up V6s like dinosaur dust.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    edited August 2013
    Honda will follow Hyundai and Ford and drop the V6 because of fuel economy.
    The CAFE regs escalate the mpg ratings rapidly in the near future so car makers really don't have a choice.


    Oh I don't think so....

    Here are the current EPA Estimates and power output for the Accord, Fusion and Sonata higher output engines...

    Accord V6: 22/34/25 (278hp/252tq) 0-60mph 5.6 sec
    Fusion 2.0T: 23/33/26 (237hp/270tq) 0-60mph 6.9 sec
    Sonata 2.0T: 23/34/26 (274hp/269tq) 0-60mph 6.5 sec

    I see no reason why CAFE would force Honda to shed the V6 in the Accord. Makes absolutely no sense based on your claims that they are not fuel-efficient.

    Neither Hyundai or Ford have shown any advantage of going smaller and boosting their engines. If anything, the newer Ford EcoBoost vehicles have been a disappointment in the real word. Having a family member who owns an EcoBoost Ford, I am reminded daily how terrible it is.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,747
    I think the first gen of Ford ecoboost engines are not as efficient as they can be and that they need both software and hardware tweaks to reach full potential. In particular cooling seems to be an issue requiring the engine to run richer than normal to compensate. That's already fixed in the new 1.5L Ecoboost engine.

    That said, nobody is better than Honda at powertrains.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    That said, nobody is better than Honda at powertrains.

    I do think in some cars, they are near the top of the class, but not all.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    The EPA isn't actually going to "force" automakers to do anything and I did not post or imply that.

    They will need to nearly double fuel economy to 54.5 miles per gallon by 2025 to meet the new CAFÉ standards. That will accelerate the use of existing engine technologies and create more demand for hybrids, particularly start-stop systems that use small batteries. Automakers agreed to the measures, and there will be an interim assessment in 2017 to review both the cost and effectiveness of different approaches.

    Already, automakers are swapping out six-cylinder engines with four-cylinders equipped with a turbo or super charger, which improves economy while maintaining horsepower.
    Traditional hybrids, where a battery powers a car part of the time, are poised for greater use.
    Mild hybrids, which car makers have started introducing in the U.S., are most compelling because the incremental cost delivers a few percent improvement in efficiency, say experts.

    The new CAFE standards also include incentives for automakers to advance specific technologies, including electric vehicles, plug-in hybrids, and fuel cell vehicles. You can bet Honda Corp will turn to these technologies and abandon their excellent V6 to comply with the stringent new CAFÉ standards which they have already agreed to.

    Natural gas vehicles, which are made and sold in the U.S by Honda, also qualify for these credits. 
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 231
    edited August 2013
    That said, nobody is better than Honda at powertrains.

    LOL. I think Honda makes great engines - although they seem to be having problems with the 6 cyl VCMs burning oil - but they have never really made a great transmission. Historically, this has been the weak point in Hondas - the transmissions. The CVT in the civic hybrid was nothing short of a disaster. There is no shortage of current 6 speed transmission issues either. Google it. They've had recalls and class action suits on their transmissions. I recently read a blog of a guy who bought a 2013 6 cyl accord and had the transmission replaced very shortly after buying it. He was upset about having a rebuilt transmission in a new car. I guess he should have read the odyssey blogs before buying a Honda 6 speed.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,456
    Every manufacturer has those horror stories - anecdotal. The CR data shows Honda transmissions to be reliable. They did have a few years with problems, but even then the overall numbers showed average reliability. The last half dozen years have been well above average.

    Nissan has had CVT issues. Ford and VW have had DSG issues. Chrysler has had terrible problems (new trans may finally be better). Pretty much everybody that sells a lot of cars has had some bad transmissions.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,786
    edited August 2013
    54 mpg is not correct in terms of what you'll find on the window sticker in 2025. That's the test number from the 1976 test. Since then the EPA window sticker has twice been revised downward to get closer to "real world" results. But in terms of CAFE they still go with the old and completely unrealistic number.

    In other words, the 54.5 mpg CAFE translates into c. 39 mpg combined on the window sticker. And that, of course, is an average. Some cars and trucks will get higher, others will be lower. And various "credits" mean that the actual number might be as low as 36 mpg.

    In other words, the 54.5 number is a kind of "bureaucratic lie."

    What CAFE translates to in terms of midsize cars is this:

    2017: c. 27 mpg combined EPA window sticker
    2021: c. 32 mpg combined
    2025: c. 38 mpg combined.

    My 2013 Honda Accord CVT is rated 30 mpg combined, and so it is already beyond the standard for 2017.

    The CAFE standards, in other words, are much less strict than the false "54.5" mpg number would lead you to believe

    If Honda slimmed down its big 3.5 V-6 to 3 liters, for instance, I see no reason why the next generation Honda Accord, which is due for model year 2018, couldn't still have a V-6.

    But the Accord due 9 years from now, for model year 2023, isn't likely to have a V-6 imho. But time will tell.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,786
    http://www.edmunds.com/fuel-economy/good-and-bad-news-emerges-from-cafes-fine-pr- int.html

    "2. MPG Confusion Will Continue. CAFE's goal is to achieve a 2025 fleet average fuel economy of 49.6 mpg (as expressed by NHTSA). But the test system enshrined by Congress in 1976 cannot adequately capture the benefits of certain fuel-saving and CO2-reducing technologies. To paper this over, regulators established a system of credits, and the use of such credits is what boosts the EPA's CAFE number to the equivalent of 54.5 mpg — the figure usually cited by the administration, members of Congress and the media. This higher figure is what is required to meet the EPA's requirement that tailpipe emissions of CO2 drop 35 percent to 163 grams per mile by 2025.

    The congressionally mandated CAFE tests do more than mask the benefits of certain modern technologies. They're also wildly optimistic. The EPA, NHTSA and everyone in the industry knows this, so a more modern system of tests has been put in place to figure fuel-economy ratings for new-vehicle window stickers. That program is not subject to CAFE's congressional mandate. The 54.5-mpg figure equals about 36 mpg in the EPA's current window-sticker measuring system. So despite what the politicians and headlines say, forget the idea that all cars and trucks will be delivering somewhere around 54.5 mpg 13 years from now. That simply won't happen."
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited August 2013
    Since I know that CAFE is an acronym for Corporate Average Fuel Economy I know the stickers will vary.
    We'll still have trucks and SUVs with MPG ratings in the teens and more hybrids and EVs will be in the fifties and above.

    But auto makers will have to meet the CAFE average.
    That'll be easier for Honda and Hyundai as the former doesn't offer 'real' pickups or large SUVs and the latter sells no pickups at all in the US.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,786
    edited August 2013
    It won't actually be easier for Hyundai and Honda.

    CAFE more or less gives big trucks a "pass" and only has relatively small improvements there. As you'll see in that Edmunds article, vehicles are ranked by class.

    It's all very complicated (900 pages!), but what it seems to boil down to is that the standards are slightly easier for Ford, GM, and Chrysler, because they sell large pickups, and slightly harder for everyone else.

    That's why VW protested the standards and didn't join the voluntary agreement for this.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,786
    edited August 2013
    Understandably, they left room for big powerful pickups in cafe, and so they don't have as much of an increase from 2012 to 2025. I agree with this, actually, because a lot of people and businesses do use their trucks for work.

    For instance, small cars like Corolla and Civic are encouraged to move their EPA sticker combined mpg from 27 in 2012 to 43 by 2025. That's a c.60% increase

    Trucks, like the F-150, are encouraged to move their EPA sticker from 17 in 2012 to 23 by 2025, which is an increase of 35%. And most of that increase is focused in the last few years. Here's how it plays out for large trucks:

    2012: 17
    2014: 18
    2016: 19
    and then it stays at 19 for several years
    2022: 20
    2023: 21
    2024: 22
    2025: 23

    So between 2012 and 2021, a period of 10 years, CAFE only goes up by 2 mpg for F-150s. That's an increase of 12% for a whole decade.

    Between 2012 and 2021, a Corolla is encouraged to go from 27 to 37, which is an increase of 37%.

    Again, I actually mostly agree with this loophole for big trucks, but it is definitely something of a gap in CAFE.

    The current F-150 with the 3.5 Ecoboost that has 360hp and 420lb of torque gets 18mpg.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Kyrpto-

    You did imply CAFE was going to force Honda to drop the V6. This is what you said...The CAFE regs escalate the mpg ratings rapidly in the near future so car makers really don't have a choice

    If car makes don't "have a choice", then they are being forced to make changes. Yes, agreeing to better fuel efficiency regulations does not mean they are being forced to make smaller motors. It just means automakers have agreed to find ways to increase fuel economy. If manufacturers want to go small and add turbo's, then fine. Personally, I don't think that's the way to go.

    Already, automakers are swapping out six-cylinder engines with four-cylinders equipped with a turbo or super charger, which improves economy while maintaining horsepower

    Again, you said this.....Honda will follow Hyundai and Ford and drop the V6 because of fuel economy

    The Accord V6 is not at a power deficit to any boosted I4 engine, and gets the same economy as well. Automakers are swapping out V6s because they have not found a way to maintain economy and power. Honda clearly has.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,456
    I find the truck exemption to be a joke. The vast majority of pickups (this class includes SUV's) are driven by normal commuters not businesses. It is clearly a concession to the lobbyists for the big three.

    Big trucks are the biggest offenders when it comes to pollution and using up our oil supply - why give them a pass?

    I have no problem with farm and commercially registered vehicles getting an exemption, but why should my neighbor who commutes in a suburban get a pass?

    I do look forward to the higher mpg that the cars will get. It would be nice to reduce fuel expenses.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,678
    If you do look forward to higher mpg then why does it matter what your neighbor drives? He'll be spending more to drive the same distance...if you're worried about the oil supply and the markets adjust to the limited supply he'll be paying even more; it all works out :)
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,456
    His (their) overuse of fuel adds to demand which makes prices higher still. If it were a vacuum I wouldn't care, but his actions effect me.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited August 2013
    The new Malibu is going to garner a lot of sales in the mid sized sedan segment.
    While early previews indicate the only engine offered - a 4 cylinder - isn't quite up to the fuel efficiency of the class leading Sonata and Camry 4s, the large 18.5 gallon fuel tank will give this beauty a range comparable to the Sonata hybrids (700 miles) .

    Glad Chevy finally 'got it right.'
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    The new Malibu is going to garner a lot of sales in the mid sized sedan segment.While early previews indicate the only engine offered - a 4 cylinder - isn't quite up to the fuel efficiency of the class leading Sonata and Camry 4s, the large 18.5 gallon fuel tank will give this beauty a range comparable to the Sonata hybrids (700 miles)

    Neither the Sonata or the Camry lead the way with fuel efficiency in this class. The Accord, Altima and Mazda6 all get better city, highway and combined fuel economy.

    Are you instead talking about the hybrid Malibu? In that case, the Mazda6, Altima and Accord get better mileage than that, without any electronic motor assistance.

    With how competitive this segment is and the quality of the top contenders, I don't see the Malibu selling much better than it currently does.
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