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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,650
    edited September 2013
    "Kinda depends on where to/from you need to tow something. We have a 21' boat (and a camper), and even if a minivan could technically tow either of them, there's no way either would make it safely up and down the gravel-on-dirt fairly steep hill. Our 4WD V8 is barely enough. "

    That's for sure. Plus most people don't realize what the max tow rating means. Most max tow ratings only allow for the driver in the tow vehicle. Basically meaning the additional weight of extra people and cargo go against the GCWR (Gross Combined Weight Rating).

    We have a 24'6' boat which weighs a bit over 6k lbs on the trailer. My Expedition with it's 9k lb tow rating gets all it can handle with people and gear. No way would I attempt to pull it with anything less and frankly I'd have a beefier tow vehicle if we towed it often. Since it stays on a lift at the lake, I only tow it a few times a year.

    Plus the 9k rating is a bit misleading. The max tongue weight is 900lbs. Most trailers pushing that much weight have over 10-15% (boats are 5-10%).

    But yeah, if you have a small boat or pop up camper and don't load a minivan up with 7 people and a weeks worth of gear it can be doable.

    We towed our first boat with a minivan a 17' open bow i/o. It towed okay except steep slick boat ramps were a problem. Weight shifts off the front wheels and one time we had to have about 4 people help push us up the ramp. That was somewhat embarrassing.
  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,323
    You need to test sit a Prius to appreciate the roominess of the cabin. The instruments and gear shift are odd and take a bit of time to get the system down. It isn't that weird but it is different enough from non hybrids to turn some folks off. The ride is pretty benign -- smooth with very little steering feedback. I can't say how it compares to midsize basic transportation but you will pay a 5-7k premium over base Camcords, Optimas and Malibus. Unless you drive a lot or are into saving the planet, it doesn't make much sense. I bought mine because I really like the seating and the hatchback. The MPG is just a bonus but it is amusing to peg the mpg gauge at 99 creeping along in heavy traffic. Driving in the traffic though, isn't much fun.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,781
    from tsx at vtec.net

    Camry 44,713
    Accord 38,559
    Altima 30,976
    Fusion 24,653
    Sonata 16,917
    Malibu 16,890
    Optima 15,199
    Passat 10,194
    200 10,139
    Avenger 6,351
    Mazda6 4,249
    Legacy 3,954
  • ahightowerahightower TXPosts: 479
    I just discovered that in Canada, they can get the Accord Sport manual in blue and pearl white, in addition to the black and grey which our only two choices with the manual.

    http://www.honda.ca/accord_sedan#/accord_sedan/sport_10233/specs

    Any unfounded conspiracy theories?

    As noted before, I've come to love my grey sport 6MT and the way the body and wheel colors coordinate. But more choices would be nice. I'd have probably gone blue or pearl if I had the choice, if only because my last car was the same color as my new one. Variety, ya know.

    Upon further review, they can only get the LX in three colors (black, silver, white) and the red, champagne, and "hematite" are only available on the highest Touring V6 trim. And there is a Touring 4-cylnider trim level, which is nice for those who want all the gadgets with the smaller engine and a manual.

    Interesting choices. I suppose they gravitate toward the higher trims and the smaller engines in general up there. Okay, that's the end of my whining for today.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,284
    edited September 2013
    Yes, the Chrysler 3.6 liter is their new "corporate" engine, and the more models that use it the cheaper it is for Chrysler, instead of making 6 different V6 engines with thousands of different parts, etc.

    The 3.6 at Chrysler is an analog to the VW/Audi 2.0T for example.

    The 3.6 replaces or is in the process of replacing the following:

    The old 3.5 liter, the Jeep 3.7 and 4.0 liter, and the (dreadful) 2.7 liter base engine that used to be in the Chrysler 300 and Charger base models.

    The 3.5 liter and the 2.7 liter date from the old cab-forward Intrepid line. The 3.5 was in the ES, the old 300M, and the Concorde.

    The 2.7 was in the base Intrepid and the Sebring Convertible.

    I just read that the European Chrysler 3.0 liter V6 block is used for the new Maserati Ghibli, (just the block though thankfully).

    There is no change for the 3.2 diesel as it carries over for 2014 models and beyond.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,284
    edited September 2013
    Like you said, folks who need to tow something generally do not buy cars that are not built for it, but in the end we are kind of over-complicating the issue.

    I have one of those 10 ft long green fishing boats with at 5 hp gas outboard. I think my dad bought it from Sears in 1982 or something. The boat, engine and gear plus the tiny trailer weigh less than 500 pounds, and the tongue weight is printed on the trailer. 30 lbs.

    I would not hesitate to tow it with my Optima, and I am POSITIVE that it wont hurt any hybrid whatsoever, as long as it isn't packed to the gills on the inside and a trunk full of gold bars.

    You can use the standard Cruze hitch on the Eco.

    Here is an example of other weird vehicles to tow with: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.smartcarofamerica.com/gallery/dis- - - - playimage.php%3Fimageid%3D3531&imgrefurl=http://www.smartcarofamerica.com/galler- - - - y/showimage.php?i%3D3531%26catid%3Dnewimages&h=667&w=1000&sz=105&tbnid=638NuwVyT- - - - PCuRM:&tbnh=89&tbnw=133&zoom=1&usg=__AnYW-viwpvD4E-P5NfC-Np17EUo=&docid=5zxGjvXT- - - - YJg1-M&sa=X&ei=HYQoUqHUK6HG2wXv7YHADQ&ved=0CDEQ9QEwAQ&dur=769

    Also, do not do this: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://i993.photobucket.com/albums/af55/I_K_- - - O_N_I_K/575127_10150698850136699_186754246698_9572453_1338027637_n.jpg&imgrefurl- - - =http://texasfishingforum.com/forums/ubbthreads.php/topics/8823830/Saw_a_Smart_c- - - ar_pulling_a_boat&h=255&w=324&sz=11&tbnid=_nNTakpbPqXY5M:&tbnh=95&tbnw=121&zoom=- - - 1&usg=__bMtYZ7zOhw9jMBtrITfguqO_Zxw=&docid=wq9bfVmCI3XiJM&sa=X&ei=HYQoUqHUK6HG2w- - - Xv7YHADQ&ved=0CFEQ9QEwCw&dur=530

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,284
    Thanks man. I hate seeing Mazda down there at the bottom, under the Avenger and the 200. I know it has to do with the recent introduction of the model and the limited availability thus far, but I still would have thought the 6 had reached 10,000 units by now after it's victory over the Accord, not to mention the win over the rest of the playing field.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    The other thing you can do is if your car is sold over in Europe, it to look at it's tow rating there, you will find it is different. It is mainly to save themselves from liability that manufacturers limit towing in North America. Usually the tow limit will be higher in Europe even for the exact same car and power train, and you will see a tow rating for Mazda's etc even with a smaller engine than available here. Again it is because of the legal system in the states ( same reason ABS wasn't offered for so long when it was available over there, etc).
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 229
    I was in Europe when I was in the service and I do think they had features in their cars that we took forever to get in the states. It wasn't just cars, but many other things as well. My favorite, and I still don't understand it, was laundry machines. I asked if they washed or dried clothes and got a funny look, then heard the answer "both". This was 20 years ago.
  • gogophers1gogophers1 Posts: 218
    edited September 2013
    I too find Honda's complex color availability scheme completely baffling. The Accord EX manual is right at the top of my shopping list right now, but I'm not nuts about gray/silver cars. Moreover, I really don't care for monochrome dark grey/graphite interiors (the ONLY interior color you can get with the stick).

    Ford, on the other hand, will let me order a manual Fusion with any color available on the palette (even though it pitched my fave Ford color, Ginger Ale, and still doesn't offer any hue close to champagne or light/medium blue - my preferred ext. color choices). I can also get a beige/black interior with the manual Ford (much better than solid, dark grey IMO).

    Mazda does it best when it comes to color choices on manual equipped cars though: the new 6 is available in two stunning colors, Soul Red and Reflex Blue (in addition to the usual array of tint-free hues) regardless of whether or not you wish to row your own gears. Moreover, the beige/black interior option is absolutely beautiful, especially so with the pinstripe cloth - and it's even available with the medium blue exterior.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,284
    edited September 2013
    You know man, it is not a "whine". A LOT of people would buy an Accord Sport in blue with a manual trans and GPS....if they made one.

    Right now Honda can get away with charging more to get that pretty blue color. When sales start to soften a little as the car "ages" (becomes more common), believe me- they will make more colors available on more models. Honda is known for making the Accord "Special Edition". This model will be no different.

    I don't know about buying ANY white car in Canada. Kind of like driving a car anywhere else covered in blacktop and a yellow stripe down the middle. LOL.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,638
    they more likely would sell 3. 2 if you don't back up your prediction with your wallet!

    as to colors, Acura is annoying too. I was looking at the ILX, and the base car is almost perfect (other than not having XM standard.)

    but, they only have 5 exterior colors (well, 1 "color" and 4 "non-colors"). black, white, 2 tons of silver and dark blue.

    we liked the blue. But you can only get it with a black interior. In fact, every color comes with the black interior. If you want parchment (tan), you have to step up to a premium package car. Also get 2 more color options (dark red and amber brownstone).

    that would probably be enough to make me not get a base car. of course, Acura assumes you will spend $2,300 extra for the premium package (wildly overpriced already). In my case, it means I would probably get some other car!

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (daughter stole that one), and 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again)

  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 791
    Honda offered a really nice looking medium blue called 'Cool Blue Metallic' on the 2007 Accord, then it disappeared. As for a champagne-like color, Honda had a color for years called Seattle Silver Metallic on the Accord and it was very sharp.

    I've always hated Honda's rigid exterior/interior/trim level combinations.
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 1,988
    Interestingly, in the two days after you posted this I saw two new Accord Sport models driving around here, both in white (I'm in Canada). That situiation is the opposite of what usually occurs here. Because we are a smaller market, often paint and interior colors are more limited than what is offered in the US market. For example, you can only get most VWs here with black interiors now, except for a few premium models.

    Oh, for the days when you could actually order interiors in color, not just coal-mine black! I'm told that black interiors are considered "cool" these days, but to me, they are worse than ugly.

    I would disagree with your hypothesis about the Canadian market. For generations, we have gravitated towards the cheap, low-end models. This is because the standard of living and income levels here are generally lower than in the US, though that may be changing.

    2011 Buick Regal Turbo, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,284
    edited September 2013
    I wasn't aware that the Canadian market was that much different than the U.S. market, especially Southern Canada like Ontario and Vancouver. My family is from Buffalo NY, so visiting Canada wasn't a big deal. My Uncles and grandparents routinely bought gas and groceries in Fort Erie, Ontario.

    With that in mind, I wasn't aware that the Accord had fewer options and color selections. I do know that Canadians are more likely to buy manual transmissions, and this was because it gives you more control in slippery conditions.
    Lastly, I made a joke about white cars being like camouflage in Canada.....which I believe is why DRL's are mandatory there. :)

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,284
    edited September 2013
    Well, hold on a second. I just read that the 2014 ILX base w/ the 150 horse motor will have heated leather seats, 17" alloys, rear view camera system, and a power drivers seat.

    So, maybe the ILX could still be a contender. Also, because it is a Honda Civic underneath it promises to be very reliable and cheap to keep in repair even after the warranty expires.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    My understanding why the Canadian market tended toward the lower end vehicles was the previous weaker dollar. You wouldn't get an Accord for 26k when the Civic was 26K...

    Now (past few years) with the stronger dollar there are (or were) manufacturers that still had vehicles priced higher (10-15K) than the counterparts in the USA. I guess they figured why lower the price if this is what they've grown accustomed to paying...

    From where my relatives are, there would be a number of people driving across the border to purchase vehicles. The manufacturers would tell these dealers not to sell to Canadians...something about adversely affecting their dealer networks in Canada. So being defiant, a few drove further south :) It was messy...

    Of course there are other locations that have vehicles priced even higher. I came close to taking a position in Australia...a VW CC I priced (conservatively) was going for 65K+ ouch...
  • I had a chance to drive a new mazda 6 over the weekend. I thought it was the smoothest vehicle in that price range by far. For a 4 cyl its very peppy. Has anyone else driven one?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699
    No but I saw a Red one in the Home Depot parking lot and it looked really sharp. Not quite as sharp as my 2013 Ruby Red Fusion Titanium, but darn close!
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,781
    edited September 2013
    irgozoom wrote:

    "I've always hated Honda's rigid exterior/interior/trim level combinations."

    I agree that it is sometimes frustrating, but there's a logic behind Honda's way of doing things, which they've followed since the 1970s. In the 70s, as well as today, some manufacturers would have literally have thousands of different options and color combinations for a model of car. Choice may be good, but the complications can erode quality. Ford has had some glitched with the new Fusion, for instance. Honda has a simplified set up of trim levels. It limits choices at times, but also simplifies manufacturing a bit, lowers costs, improves quality, etc. And so if you can find what you want, or close enough, some people find that buying a Honda gives them a good value on a high quality car with very good engineering. Having thousands of choices would do away with that, and Honda won't do it. And so if you must have a particular combo and can't compromise, you should probably move on, because Honda has its own way of doing things. It works for Honda, and it works for most people, but for some it just doesn't fit.

    When it comes to manuals, I agree it would be nice if they offered more combos. But as we all know, manuals are dying. About 4 years ago you could get a manual Camry, manual Optima, manual Sonata, manual Altima, etc. Those manual models are all gone. Dead. Fewer and fewer people are driving manuals. I applaud Honda for continuing to offer a manual when most of the others don't.
  • brian125brian125 New york / S.C. myrtle beachPosts: 2,758
    At some point Honda will also stop production on there manual auto's. Probably does not make sense to make with such little demand.

    I would love to see the sales numbers this year on the new redesigned Accord Manual. There have been several people in the honda forum looking to buy one. i think the problem with the cars you mentioned they are geared more towards family sedan. How many woman with kids wants a manual.

    My last manual was a 1989 ford T- bird turbo coupe. My friends son just got on the police dept and the car was 1 yr old when i bought it from him.. I had that ford for 2 yrs..... What a blast i had with it. I still think about that car.

    2013 Genesis 5.0 R-spec, 2013 Accord EXL V-6, 2012 BMW x-5, 2012 ML350

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,781
    Ah, you had one of the famed Thunderbird Super Coupes. I always liked those. That was Ford's go at a working man's BMW 6-series. It was a lot of car for the money back in those days.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,638
    yeah, for 2014, Acura basically ditched the base "stripper" model and added much of what was in the old premium package to the base car, at very little cost increase. Alloys, heated leather, and a few other things. The premium pack now cost less, but has less in it (xenons I think and a fancier stereo?).

    the biggest gaffe (to me at least!) is the XM. Left off the base car, and included with the premium package. And $2,300 is a lot to pay for it (especially if you are not that interested in the HIDs or fog lights).

    If the base car had the XM included, it would be perfect to me. everything I need/want/require, and really no "fluff".

    The salesguy did say they could add in the XM. He spit balled $450 to do it, but no clue what the actual damage would be.

    I would hate to get a brand new car and have to go with a portable unit, but if I did lease one, that would end up being the solution.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (daughter stole that one), and 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again)

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    No XM? That's pretty amazing, given even low-bucks cars like my base Kia Rio (starts at around $14k) has XM standard. And it probably costs very little to put it in from the get-go.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,638
    I agree. that was a pretty cheesy move. the base car even has the shark fin antennae on the roof still.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (daughter stole that one), and 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again)

  • gmanusmcgmanusmc SoCalPosts: 436
    If the head unit is XM ready, there might be a reasonably priced plug and play receiver available. Our 09 IS250 was like that - had the shark fin - bought an XM receiver for about $160 and was an easy install inside a trunk panel. Just plugged into the existing antenna and wiring. But I agree - just equip the darn car with it.

    Bill G
  • mcdawggmcdawgg Posts: 1,668
    "At some point Honda will also stop production on there manual auto's. Probably does not make sense to make with such little demand.

    I would love to see the sales numbers this year on the new redesigned Accord Manual. There have been several people in the honda forum looking to buy one. i think the problem with the cars you mentioned they are geared more towards family sedan. How many woman with kids wants a manual."

    Yep, agree. Honda will stop manual Accord production fairly soon, I predict. It costs a lot more to produce anything in small numbers - just adds complexity in manufacturing, which is a no-no for quality and cost reasons.

    The new generation Corolla has a 6 speed manual, so smaller sedans will likely have them for a while. But for a family sedan, they will go away. "How many women with kids wants a manual?" Of the women I know, zero, and the men, a few, but still not enough. Yes, on forums like these, there seems to be quite a few manual lovers, but this forum really does not represent the true population.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,447
    The manual Accord has few sales compared to the automatic, but they still sell quite a few. They are selling in the range of 6 to 7%.

    Going by last months sales of 38k Accords that would be about 2,300 - 2,700 units a month. For comparison the Acura TL (their best selling car) sold 2,227 units last month. The TSX and ILX were both around 1,700 units. I suppose all of those vehicles should be dropped since they don't have the economy of scale. ;)

    Accord MT is actually available on more models this year than last and percentages have ticked up.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,731
    How many woman with kids wants a manual.

    Well, SOME do! I have a friend who has kids. I recently bought a Mazda6i hatchback with AT. I would have loved to get a stick, but the car itself is quite rare, let alone with a manual. Then I saw her car, exactly the same model, year and color, and it has a stick! Boy was I jealous! :)
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,447
    "How many woman with kids wants a manual."

    My wife. After I taught her on my Scirocco, she bought a new Integra (1990) with a manual (still have it). She drives our '13 Accord with the 6 spd manual more than I do.

    If you teach them, they will drive. :)
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