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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 2,023
    The automotive media tend to like Mazda because their cars are designed to appeal to an enthusiast base, and as a result the reviewers like them. In practice, much of the market tends to not like the firm - some might say rough - ride, and the road/tire/engine noise levels. They also have/had a very real problem in the salt belt with premature rusting, poor interior trim quality, and resale values that sink like a stone as a result. Time will tell if they have changed that enough with their latest designs to expand their market.

    2011 Buick Regal Turbo, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,009
    edited October 2013
    My wife drives a 2007 Mazda6 which now has about 101,000 miles on it. It had two small repairs besides normal oil changes/tires/battery etc. and those were an adjustment to a tailpipe hanger(fixed at first oil change) and a screw that worked it's way loose in a visor which the dealer fixed for free at about 78k miles. Non one recall occurred either that I can remember unless it was handled during an oil change or something. Don't know how you can get much better than that. The rust problem was about 10 years ago in the Protege I believe and was fixed about 8 years ago and no rust problems of any substance have been reported since then. CR has found the Mazda6 to be very reliable over the past 6-7 years with the 4cyl having a little better record than the V-6 which is no more. This has been our first Mazda product and based on the dealer and the record of the car we may get another. The only thing my wife doesn't like about the car is that it does have wind/road noise. But as far as reliability I haven't heard of any major widespread problems with the Mazda6. Ours was built at Flat Rock facility so they can build good cars there. I've had many Chevys, Olds, Pontiacs, Buicks, Fords, Dodges, Toyota, Acura, Infiniti so I do have some others to compare the Mazda to. We may or may not get another as we have no real brand loyalty. We test drove Korean products the last two car purchases and while they looked nice there was just too many areas where cost saving was evident and the way they drove just didn't compare well. Resale values on the Mazda6 do not fall like stones. Resale values for Mazda are in line with most other midsize cars and I believe the Mazda3 has a little better than average resale value compared to it's peers. We have not found our interior trim to be substandard in any way unless you count a screw that worked loose after 78k miles to indicate substandard quality.

    I chuckle when I read posts about a problem a car company had 10 or 15 years ago and people will still cite those problems as reasons not to buy a brand. Just about every car company has had problems of one kind or another. If we didn't buy a car because the brand had some sort of problem years ago we would all be walking. Ford had Pinto fires and Explorer roll overs and the Fusion has had more recalls than three or four other cars put together and their mpg numbers on their hybrids have been "recalled" as well. Look at Toyota and the problems they have had with bad press. Hyundai has been caught fudging hp and mpg numbers. Honda had well documented problems with transmissions. Audi almost withdrew from the U.S. because of their unintended acceleration problems but now are on a roll. Hyundai used to market crap, and I do mean crap. Now they have competitive products. So problems can be fixed, products can be improved. So please stop citing problems from many many years ago as if they are current problems. I knew all about the Honda transmission problems before I bought our Acura. The sky did not fall.
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 2,023
    Look, I do not hate Mazda. But I can tell you that in Canada they have had ongoing rust issues with the 2006- 07 gen Mazda 3 and the resolution of that with newer models will not be known for some time. Here in Canada resale values are depressed - whether it is because of that or other reasons I cannot say, but a 6 does not command the same value on the used car market as an Accord or Camry, simple as that.

    2011 Buick Regal Turbo, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,009
    Someone should tell your fellow Canadians then. Mazda3 is the fourth best selling small carin Canada. About 4 times the Imprezza which you think would sell a lot up there. Better than Cruze, Focus, Jetta, Forte, Dart, etc etc. This includes all subcompacts as well.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Yet they could have been 3rd maybe, if not for the memories that once loyal owners have of Mazda dropping the ball on them in some ways..one in particular..and I need not even bring it up, as your memory of it being addressed "8+ years ago" isn't necessarily accurate by the standards of those past Mazda owners who chose a different car the next time around. Just because someone says an issue has been addressed an exaggerated number of years ago, does not necessarily make it so.

    And not sure why you would compare the 3 with a car like an Impreza which is an AWD car which has a cost of entry deficit because of its extended capability drivetrain, yet also battles for FE also because of it being AWD. Of course many might choose the 3, with more bells and whistles for similar outlay as a lesser equipped but AWD Impreza. As for 3's getting the nod over a Cruze whose company many NAs still hate because of buy-out memories, and Focus during a time period whose NAs favourite choice of transmission is an auto, but with its dual clutch operational issues, since as per Ford's usual practice in rolling out new tech upon customers (guinea pigs) prematurely. Then you have VW's Jetta whose past less than stellar reliability issues, while much improved of late, still come back to haunt them at times. And the Dart? They really screwed that one up...not a decent transmission available even tho 3 are offered. And the first year, they foolishly EPA tested their turbo on premium fuel requirements, in order to get the higher MPG bragging rights. Once engine management makes timing adjustmenst for the many customers who would fuel it with 87, no wonder few if any are meeting the EPA numbers. So naturally, between that and the poor auto choices avail, 'and' a less than smoothly refined 2.4 NA engine, is it any wonder many kicked a tire only to pass?

    Then you have Mazda's highly successful advertising ZoomZoom deal, and new SkyActive tech offering fairly impressive real world FE numbers, (whose longevity potential is still an unknown) and claims that rust issues maybe really have been addressed through the use of galvanized metal (something their competitors had been already using) they have certainly secured a few new customers. Having impressively handsome cars like the new 6 doesn't hurt either. But promises of a diesel have been shelved till late next spring, will, and has put off some customers.

    As for the alluded stereo-type of wx-capable AWD cars being popular in Cda ahead of the USA, SD just recently got a massive snow blizzard prior to Cda and that is often the case.
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 2,023
    It is my impression that Subaru is indeed growing in Canada, but not as much because of the AWD/snow capabilities. Their growth seems to be coming from the tuner set and you frequently see fart-can muffler-equipped pimped-out Subie subcompacts buzzing around town.

    2011 Buick Regal Turbo, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,009
    Yet many of those same cars outsell Mazda in the U.S. That whole argument is grasping at straws.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Well, aside from the fact that often brand popularity cannot always be explained away geographically, you were the one that did bring the Cdn quotient into it.

    As for the points I made, I don't agree that I was grasping at anything.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,737
    They also have/had a very real problem in the salt belt with premature rusting, poor interior trim quality, and resale values that sink like a stone as a result.

    Since this discussion is about mid-sized cars, I'll reply wrt the Mazda 626/6. I owned a 2000 626 ES which I purchased when it was 6 years old, and owned it up to 10 years and 120k miles, and now own a 2005 Mazda6i which I just purchased. In each case, the car was driven its entire life in the Twin Cities area, which uses lots of road salt. Neither car showed any signs of rust even after many winters. The polished alloys on the 626 did show some signs of pitting late in life, but the painted alloys on my 6 are perfect after 8+ years.

    As for interior trim, I think the trim on both cars was at least as good if not better than most cars of their eras. The 626 had tan leather that was soft and held up well. The dash controls were smooth and had a quality feel. The interior of the 6 also has held up well, and after 8+ years and 162k miles looks like new with the except of a hole worn in the driver's floor mat by the previous owner (a woman--high heels maybe?) and a bit of fuzzing on the center insert of the driver's seat. As with the 626, the controls have a smooth, quality feel.

    So I really don't know where you are coming from re your comments on rusting and interior trim quality, wrt Mazda's mid-sized cars over the past 10-15 years.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,009
    Excuse me, but I was not the one to bring up the CDn aspect. I was responding to the comment about Mazda resale values in Canada. I think it is grasping at straws when trying to explain sales results with assumptions and guesses.
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 2,023
    edited May 2013
    Believe it or not, there are actually Canadian automotive forums, where issues of car ownership in Canada are discussed by Canadians. Even the Mazda fans there concede the rusting issue on the 3 and even the early 5 was a serious one. And living in the salt belt of Canada it is not uncommon to see rusty Mazdas running around on the roads. The 6 seemed less affected by the rust issue (perhaps due to the manufacturing plant being different) but there is no question that resale values lag the Camcords.

    If you care to Google "Mazda 3 rust" you will see the evidence you claim is lacking.

    2011 Buick Regal Turbo, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,009
    I never said it didn't happen. My comment were only meant to say that a lot of people like to live in the past as long as it agrees with their agenda. I am not a huge Mazda supporter but feel it does get bad press for something that happened several years ago that doesn't apparently affect today's cars. Do Hondas problems with transmissions greatly affect today's Hondas? I think not. And Honda did not address that problem with transparency at first either.
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 2,023
    edited October 2013
    Not the same issue though. The Honda transmissions were breaking early on. Rust, by its very nature, takes time before you know it is a problem. It is a LONG-TERM issue. So you cannot declare it fixed until that time has passed. Frankly, nobody knows yet whether it is fixed or not. That doubt is hurting Mazda sales. As for it matching someone's agenda, I fail to see how Mazda loyalists reporting on the issue is agenda-driven. The only "agenda" they have is getting their rusty car fixed by Mazda Canada, which was remarkably unhelpful and unresponsive in many cases - another useful data point, incidentally.

    2011 Buick Regal Turbo, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,009
    edited October 2013
    I have heard of people that had two different transmissions replaced 30k to 40k apart. That's hardly "early on". I'm sure it was very, very frustrating to go through one tramsmission replacement after initially being told there was no problem only to have it happen again 30k miles later. But to your point, Honda did eventually live up to it. I follow the Mazda3 in the Edmunds forums here and I have not read that much about rust problems with cars manufactured in the last 8 years or so. Our Mazda6(over 100k and Chicago area driven) is over 6 years old and doesn't have a speck of rust on it. It is a commuter car and doesn't get washed but maybe 6 times a year and has only been waxed once. I realize it is not a Mazda3 or a Protege and may have been manufactured in a different plant but still, to say one shouldn't buy a Mazda product because they once had rust issues is silly. Especially since we are talking about midsize cars.

    "Two of Mazda’s brand strengths are quality and resale value, but that’s not why the Mazda3 compact is Canada’s fourth most popular car, with sales this year up 11 per cent." from a 2012 article in the Canadian newspaper Globe and Mail, Toronto

    I'm sure there are article pros and cons but consumers seem to like the Mazda brand just fine in Canada, even more so than in the U.S. I don't purport to know the exact reasons but sales numbers don't lie and they don't make assumptions.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 230
    But to your point, Honda did eventually live up to it....

    You are giving Honda too much credit. The ONLY reason Honda took care of the transmissions (they didn't fix them, but extended the warranty) was due to a class action lawsuit. That seems to be the same thing for their 2008-2012 accord brake issues, too. Instead of "living up to it" they faced another class action lawsuit and now are taking care of it. And as to the "early on" fixes, my 2000 accord 4 cyl had the original plus 3 rebuilt transmissions in it before it had 90,000 miles on it. (Following a class action lawsuit, they extended the transmission warranties to 7 years or 100k and when you got a rebuilt tranny it came with a 3/36 warranty.)
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 2,023
    I'm glad you acknowledge that there are Canadian sources of information about Mazda's ownership experience. Now use that knowledge to see the similar sources of information about premature rust-out. It's nice that your car didn't experience it. That means nothing when many others are having serious problems. To wit:

    "In the last few weeks I think I saw at least +30 Mazda3 that were rust buckets. We're talking cars that are barely 3-4 years old!"

    "We see a lot of mazda3's in trade and 90% of them are rusted...mazda had a recall for some and repaired them but they still have issues."

    Is it fixed? Maybe not:

    "They havent, we are seeing 2009+ that are rusted coming into the shop..
    Mazdas have always rotted away. You dont see 323 or 626 anymore not because of the engines, but always the body.
    I basically laugh at anyone who buys one. Ive seen rustproofed mazdas break out.. takes longer, but they WILL rot.
    My brother in law has a 5, I feel bad for him. He is already complaining about the rust, and hes always been a car guy and knew what he was in for, just not so fast. "

    "It is amazing how many Mazda3s I see in Alberta with rust issues. They seem to rust just as quick as the Protégés, especially in the same rear wheel well area."

    the reality is that people will tend to overlook issues if they believe the car is something special otherwise. That explains why the Japanese makes were not driven back into the sea in the 1970s and '80s when their cars were practically biodegradable in the salt belt. People liked the mechanical reliability and fuel economy and lived with the rust until the car could no longer be driven safely.

    2011 Buick Regal Turbo, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    That's strange as we never had any problems with our 2007 Mazda 3 and looking at the resale values they are as high if not higher than equivalent competitors ( including the corrolla and civic). The rust problems were only on the early 3s and even then are not as bad as people make them out to be, I see as many equivalent models with rusta s Mazda 3s. Mazda did adress the problem at some point between the 2006 and 2007 model years, so it appears that it is not the concern that you want to make it out to be. Your "facts" don't seem to apply here ( in the GTA) from what I can tell.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Did you move to TO from out west? I cudda sworn you lived out west (in the rain belt) which is good to flush salt away. You simply can't compare BC cars with ones to the east. Oh...maybe Niagara Falls? I wonder who i was thinking of that lives out west..

    Outta curiosity, which Cdn forums do you visit to try to get pricing that is as (or even remotely as) helpful as Edmund's "Prices Paid" forums, for Americans?

    As much as I enjoy this site and have acquired many friends here, whenever they talk price it drives me crazy..the green kind..(source and knowledge envy)..
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 2,023
    They aren't my "facts". They are the documented experiences of others. Simply search the net for "mazda rust issues" or similar and read.

    2011 Buick Regal Turbo, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • gogophers1gogophers1 Posts: 218
    edited October 2013
    Someone should create a Mazda Rust board and relocate this discussion to it.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 394
    edited October 2013
    Did a check on the rust issue, and it does appear that there are more occurrences of rust issues on the 3 in forums than for at least the civic and corolla ( though those have some issues with rust as well). That said it is obvious there must be some variable in the manufacturing process or something as I know neither of our 3s had this issue ( mine was only around till about 3.5 years 80,000 km though) the 2007 3 we still own does not have any rust issues with 130,000 + km on it. Ours is a hatch though so maybe that is part of the difference ( I see a lot of the complaints are around the rear lights and third mounter brake light, on I assume the sedans), though the wheel wells I would assume are manufactured the same way. In any case obviously the problem doesn't affect every 3. I do see problems with similar level cars from other makes.
    I am going to stop here since my experience doesn't relate to midsized cars, and neither does the thread about potential rust issues with the 3, that you pointed people towards.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669
    You are correct. They are very, very, similar; especially the rear half of the vehicle (the C pillar).

    The Accord and Legacy are both attractive, but I'm not an Accord "fan"...the styling just looks to similar to previous models. Maybe that is a good thing because when I look at it it is instantly recognizable as an Accord. It just doesn't look "new" to me.

    I do also agree with other posters regarding the Legacy...the overhang is a little long, The Fusion wheelbase is about 4" longer than the Legacy. This is also my pet peeve with the Optima design, while very nice it appears they have the constraint of the platform. If they could push the front wheels 3-4" forward and the rear 2" back I think it'd look stunning.

    This is of course just nit-picking...All of these look stunning compared to sedans from 10-15 years ago.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,297
    The old Mazda 3 and the Mazda 6 are 75% Ford. While they share no body panels, the Mazda 3 is basically a Focus and the 6 is a quasi Ford 500.

    The new Mazda 3, 6, and CX-5 are all new machines from the ground up, with 100% Japanese Mazda parts. The 6 is made entirely in Japan, and the Japanese take a lot of pride in what they build. Mazda has something to prove now that they have completely divorced Ford.

    I bought my Optima before the new 6, Accord, or Fusion was available, but I think I might have bought the 6 if it was available in December 2011. It would have been hard to decide between the Optima, 6, or the Accord.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,297
    I am so glad I don't live in the rust belt. I remember the cars in Buffalo where my family is from and how shocked I was at all the rust on almost every car.

    From what I have seen every mainstream car factory completely submerges their cars in rust coating solutions where the entire car is dunked in a huge vat. There is current applied to the solution so it sticks to every nook and cranny.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • m6userm6user Posts: 3,009
    "and the 6 is a quasi Ford 500."

    Not even close. Even the Fusion was bigger than the 1st gen 6 and the 500 was a lot bigger than the Fusion. Different everything but maybe a base v-6 engine tuned differently.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,701
    The old Mazda 3 started with the Euro Focus platform. The old Mazda 6 was it's own platform. Ford took that platform, widened and lengthened it slightly and that was the original Fusion platform (not 500). The new Mazda6 is an updated version of the Fusion's longer and wider platform but 100% Mazda. The 2013 Fusion uses a new platform based on the Euro Mondeo.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,297
    edited October 2013
    My bad dude. I meant Fusion. My wife owned an 04, so I darned sure know what it is! Tuned differently yes, and I never once felt like I was in a Ford while driving the 6 Sportwagon.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,297
    yeah yaeh yeah....I got my wires crossed kirby. :)

    EVERYONE GO FOR MY THROAT I WAS WRONG!!!!

    LMAO.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,753
    It seems to be working. Dropped to 3/4 after about 110 miles. Before that, it would take 10 miles to hit that level.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,297
    Awesome. I am glad Ford took care of it. Having to worry about how much fuel you have is no fun.

    I am sorry but I forgot which model Fusion you have. Is it the 1.6 Eco-boost or 2.5 or 2.0?

    What color?

    I wish everyone here would post pics of their cars!!

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

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