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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    Consumers aren’t buying boatloads of Sonatas because they have the most horsepower; the spacious interior sells more units.

    At 120.2 cubic feet, the Sonata has more interior volume than all of its key competitors.
    Comfy and spacious.
    So spacious that the Sonata is classified by the EPA as a “large car,” so it is literally a “class above” the Fusion, Camry, Altima, and Malibu which are rated as “midsize cars“ by the EPA.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,706
    edited October 2013
    On a recent 100+ mi hwy trip in our 2013 Accord CVT at c. 65-72 mph we got 39 mpg. If we had been driving our 2008 Accord on this trip we would have gotten more like 30 mpg.

    The new generation of midsize cars from Nissan, Honda and Mazda are getting c. 20% better hwy mpg than the previous generation.

    I assume that when the new generation of Sonata and Optima come out in 2015 they will match these numbers.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,706
    kyrpto wrote: "the spacious interior sells more units. "

    More units than what?

    The Camry, Accord, Fusion, and Altima sell way more units than the Sonata. The Sonata is a fine car, and for 2014 Hyundai has added some nice improvements, but it's far from being a sales leader.

    Hope they fix the blind spots on the Sonata for 2015.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,706
    edited October 2013
    "The Sonata’s quick-ratio steering rack has a turning diameter of 35.8 feet, better than the Accord, Camry, Altima, Fusion and Chevy Malibu.
    Easier to park."

    True, but....

    The Sonata's IIHS small-offset crash test rating was Marginal, which is worse than the Good rating of the Accord, and the Acceptable rating of the Altima, Optima, Fusion, Passat, Legacy, Fusion, Chrysler200, etc.

    The Sonata is a fine car and very competitive in most areas. But it's not tops at everything.

    I actually wonder if Hyundai beefed up the structure of the 2014 Sonata, along with the other improvements, so that it would perform better on the IIHS small offset test. Quite possibly. In any case, when the all-new model comes out for 2015 the Sonata will almost certainly do better on the test.

    http://www.iihs.org/iihs/ratings/v/class-summary/midsize-moderately-priced-cars
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,706
    edited October 2013
    According to the epa. Combined city/hwy mpg for the base 2014 models with auto....

    31: Mazda6, Altima
    30: Accord
    29: Malibu
    28: Optima, Sonata, Camry
    26: Fusion
    25: Passat
    24: Chrysler 200
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited October 2013
    One selling point for mid-sized sedan buyers are the, if you will, “infotainment” systems most vehicles are built around.
    Ford is still trying to recover from its myTouch disaster so Hyundais' Assurance Connected Care, the industry-leading telematics services program, which comes standard for three years with all 2014 Sonatas, gives the Korean automaker a huge edge.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited October 2013
    For 2014 the Sonata’s premium navigation system includes an Infinity 550-watt, Logic 7 surround sound audio system with 12 speakers, including an available eight-inch subwoofer and external amplifier. That’s up a 150-watts from my 2013 Hybrid Limited.
    I believe this is just about as-good-as-it-gets for the mid-sized sedan market; definitely clobbers any Bose system.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,706
    edited October 2013
    "....gives the Korean automaker a huge edge."

    Maybe more like a slight edge in this one area? Not sure. The Sonata is a very good car, but not everything about the Sonata is peachy. Here's a sometimes good and sometimes lukewarm review of the 2013 Sonata from Automobile magazine....

    "The Sonata is the clear loser of this match-up," deputy editor Joe DeMatio exclaims with surprise. "Excellent power delivery, but the engine is coarse and the transmission is its willing accomplice." Road test editor Christopher Nelson concurs. "I can see why this would've been an All-Star before its competitors were replaced with new models," he says. "It has a very strong engine, but it's coarse, with more idle noise than a good diesel." When you break down the Sonata's game, you're surprised to find too many negatives. The Sonata's 200-hp four-cylinder is powerful, yet copy editor Rusty Blackwell found its throttle tip-in to be touchy. We also disliked the Sonata's mushy brakes and numb steering, while this car's sport suspension delivered too much road harshness for too little handling improvement. "On a smooth road, the Sonata feels fine, but get it on a road with some bumps and it immediately starts to feel twitchy and unsettled," managing editor Amy Skogstrom says. The 2013 Hyundai Sonata delivers a lot of game for the money, and this continues to make it a leading value in its segment. Even so, it's just a little bit off from the best in every category, which proves crucial in a head-to-head tournament like this. For example, the bodywork is expressive, yet the roofline noticeably compromises rear-seat headroom....

    Read more: http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/driven/1303_midsize_madness_day_two/viewall- - .html#ixzz2hst5wiLl
  • jpp5862jpp5862 NCPosts: 326
    While MyFordTouch is a huge miss for Ford it's hard to say they are "still trying to recover" from it. Their sales numbers prove otherwise, as do the sales numbers for the Sonata which is battling the Malibu for last place.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,671
    The Altima is 31 but the Mazda6 is 30. Fusion 1.5LEB (the new base engine) is 28, not 26. CVTs really help city fuel economy.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,706
    You're right about Mazda being 30. Sorry about that. And it looks like the Optima is 27 this year, which is strange because the engine and transmission are shared with the Sonata.

    According to Ford's web site, the 2.5 duratec, rated 22/34, or 26 combined, is still the standard engine on the Fusion for 2014. But maybe that's about to change?

    http://www.ford.com/cars/fusion/specifications/
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,706
    Base model with auto trans....

    31: Altima
    30: Mazda6, Accord
    29: Malibu
    28: Sonata, Camry
    27: Optima
    26: Fusion
    25: Verano
    24: Chrysler 200
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 931
    Just took a trip in our 2013 Honda Accord from Ohio to Washington, DC and back. It was a good test of the car because it involved driving through the Alleghenies over the Cumberland Gap, snarled traffic in downtown Washington (though less than usual unfortunately since everything is closed), and a driving rainstorm for the first half of the trip. There is also some two-lane driving with Amish buggies on the Ohio part. Overall mpg each way was 33.5 on the rain half and 35 on the way back, which I thought was pretty good given the conditions.

    Driving through the mountains was the first time I was aware that I was driving a 4cyl and not my V6 Maxima, which took everything in stride. The Accord also made it through easily but I was aware the engine was working harder. However, it handled beautifully especially in the downpour where there was actual ponding on the roads. It has wonderful visibility which was much appreciated in both the rainstorm and city driving. Interestingly, the rear window stayed completely dry the entire time. I also appreciated driving nearly 500 miles on 1 tank of gas, and regular, not premium.

    The Accord has one feature that I learned about on this trip. I'm sure they're common on cars with push button start but it was new to me. My husband was trying to put a bag in the trunk and it wouldn't close. It also sounded a small alarm. Turned out my remote was in the bag, and the Accord doesn't want you to lock your keys in the trunk.

    All in all, while I loved my Maxima dearly, I have to admit that the Accord is actually overall a better vehicle. I'm speaking strictly of driving dynamics since of course any new car is going to have many more features than were available 12 years ago.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,671
    The 2.5 is standard but the 1.5L EB is the fuel economy version just as the CVT equipped models are the fuel economy versions on the others. I expect the 2.5L to go away within another year or so.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,692
    I assume that when the new generation of Sonata and Optima come out in 2015 they will match these numbers.

    Likely. But in real-world driving, the Sonata already matches what you got on your new Accord. In multiple 100+ highway trips with my wife's 2013 Sonata GLS, we got ~38 mpg, and that was with some in-town driving at the destination. Pretty darn close to the 39 mpg you got on your Accord with CVT.

    30 mpg on a 2008 Accord (if it was a 4 cylinder) at 65-72 mpg is pitiful.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,963
    Yes, but if one checks the option for i-ELOOP on the Mazda6 the EPA numbers are 28/40/32. Best in class for something that doesn't affect it's drive or braking and doesn't add weight.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,963
    "so Hyundais' Assurance Connected Care, the industry-leading telematics services program, which comes standard for three years with all 2014 Sonatas, gives the Korean automaker a huge edge."

    So where do you get this stuff from, a Hyundai sales brochure? Most of your posts look like they are copied and paste from advertising.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,706
    edited October 2013
    The epa has a 2 mpg difference between the Sonata and the Accord, which admittedly isn't huge, but some independent tests seem to find something similar. For instance, this AutoGuide comparison had the Sonata getting 27.4 mpg while the Accord got 29.8, a difference of slightly more than 2 mpg. We actually did hit 40 once on a hwy trip with the CVT Accord, and so I think it does still have a small but significant edge of about 2 mpg over the Sonata in real world driving.

    But some tests show that the Accord is beaten by about 1 mpg by the Altima and Mazda6. So those cars might set standard for mpg right now in midsize. But this AutoGuide test shows the Accord, Altima, and Mazda6 all tied at c. 29 mpg.

    The 2008 Accord isn't impressive for mpg, but neither were other cars back then. It was rated 31 on the highway, and sometimes we get that at 65-70, but that's about it. That 30 number I mentioned was fully loaded with 4 people, luggage, and the AC on full blast. Back in 2008, however, most midsize cars were similar, including the previous generation Sonata. The 2008 Sonata was, in fact, rated at 30 on the highway--and so 1 mpg lower than the Accord of that year.

    Here's the AutoGuide test:

    http://www.autoguide.com/auto-news/2013/07/2013-2014-mid-size-sedan-comparison-t- - - - - oyota-camry-vs-honda-accord-vs-mazda6-vs-hyundai-sonata-vs-nissan-altima-vs-vw-p- - - - - assat-vs-subaru-legacy-vs-kia-optima.html/3
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,706
    edited October 2013
    Yes. With eloop the Mazda6 is hands down the winner. And even without that it seems to win some of the mpg comparison tests that I've seen.

    The new skyacitiv Mazda6 seems to be the winner in some key areas, including handling, steering feel, sometimes mpg, and, although it's very subjective, maybe looks as well.

    For me with a family the larger back seat and better visibility of the Accord are key features, along with the more widely available service and better navi.

    But right now most comparison tests looking at most midsize cars seem to give a strong vote to the Mazda6, and I expect sales to increase at a good clip for the next several years. Mazda appears to be on a roll. They really have some engineering excellence on their side.

    Having owned both Hondas and Mazdas I still prefer the Accord.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,196
    I think it is very useful to know which tire. I drove 400 miles on vacation with 4 new tires, but at 280 my TPMS flashed, and so I got off at the next exit to check it out. It was off by 3 psi, and was due to heat and the pressure variance that happens with high speed driving on hot pavement.

    In other words, normal. It would have saved me an unscheduled stop if I knew which tire and how much it was off. When you have your most precious cargo in the car (my 3 kids), you can't just blow it off.

    On the way back, it happened again. After slowing to 50 mph through a town for 20 miles, it shut off on it's own.

    I have to give kudo's to my Turanza tires. They are fantastic in heavy rain, and I noticed a big difference in tire noise too. Very quiet, confidence inspiring tires, and very resistant to hydroplaning.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,671
    Heat would cause the pressure to go up, not down. Does your TPMS give a warning for pressure that's too high? What does it consider to be too high? You won't normally get more than a 3-4 psi difference when hot and that should already be figured into the TPMS algorithm.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,196
    edited October 2013
    Yeah backy I checked it out. Both the 2014 Sonata and the Optima are reporting horsepower reductions to 190 and 192 depending on single or dual exhaust.

    Makes you wonder if our cars ever really produced 198 and 200 that I am so proud of.

    After seeing many comparo's in many magazines I always noticed that our Sonoptima's were not generating performance figures commiserate with the stated horsepower and weight of the car. Seems like F/E was not the only thing being exaggerated at Hyundai-Kia.

    ****I got the figures directly from the official Sonata and the Optima web site. Car and Driver still report 200 and 198.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,196
    edited October 2013
    I didn't say down. I said "off". I don't remember really how much or which one. I had 3 kids screaming for food and a bathroom break. I know I evened them all out, and then on the way back TPMS flashed again, but shut off after 20 miles through town at reduced speed.

    It has never come on since. I check my tires all the time.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,963
    "Heat would cause the pressure to go up, not down."

    He didn't say it went down and insinuated by the term heat/speed induced that it was up. Anyway, I think most TPMS measure both ways and will give a warning whether too high or too low but that is an educated guess on my part. I would agree that 3lbs seems to be way too touchy. My Acura shows each tire pressure and when I leave the garage they are at about 30 and after a few miles on the expressway they are up to 34. I would have lights going on all the time if it measured only a 3lb variance.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,671
    So what pressure do you normally run vs. what the vehicle sticker recommends?
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,706
    My tpms used to come on with my Accords, which was annoying. I replaced the regular air with nitrogen and that seemed to fix it. I'm sure you probably already know about that possible fix.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,671
    The law only requires a warning for under-inflation. I've not heard of systems warning for over-inflation. The under-inflation mandate is 25% based on the car placard recommended pressure. Since there is no mandate for overinflation it would be up to the mfr on the threshold.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,963
    I think you're right. They just got through with a marketing nightmare on their MPG numbers. They had some trouble about 10 years ago with overestimating their HP numbers too. So I think the powers on high said to go back and make sure we can absolutely prove every single stat we are putting out and if it's borderline at all.....error on the side of caution. They don't need more negative headlines. But you can be sure all the car rags will jump on this mysterious HP reduction when the powertrain itself doesn't appear to be changed.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,196
    sticker is 32, and I run them at 35. On my Nexens I ran them high but after I got the s*** kicked out of me here for doing it, I don't go over 3 psi from recommended.

    The tpms system checks for variance....it has no idea what the pressure is supposed to be.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,963
    Yeah, you may be right and cski's experience was a blip or malfunction possibly. I just assumed that since the system can measure low it could also measure high. I would think a drastically overinflated tire would be dangerous as well though even if there is no federal mandate.
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