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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • mcdawggmcdawgg Posts: 1,666
    Funny, the rattle in the dash has been reported in the early 6 generation Camrys, but everyone said that the TSB done by your dealer fixes it? My '07 non-hybrid has been great, no issues, and in my opinion and just about all the reviews I have ever read, is very quiet.

    I like to buy domestic - that's why I did not buy a Mexican-built, and only 50% NA parts car. The Camry, Accord, and Malibu are much more USA than the Fulan.

    I will not go and try to bash another car, because we all have our opinions, and that's okay. I had a Fusion rental a year ago, and let's just say it is a great car, but the Camry still is my choice.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    "I don't mind a little growl when I floor it."

    Same here and I floor my 4 cyl fairly often, probably a few times per week on average and I also generally tend to accelerate much faster than most other drivers, when I can (4000-5000 rpm on a regular basis does not frighten me). Mine is a comparitively weak 150 HP or so in a prior generation Mazda6, but even with that I have rarely felt like I wanted more power (the rare case would typically be when 4 or 5 adults are in the car).

    There is some vibration when stopped, that I'd rather not have...but it is not enough to make me willing to go to a V6. For me the vibration would not be an issue at all had I chosen to get a manual, as when I put it in neutral while stopped, it is smooth enough for me. Designing the automatic to shift to neutral when stopped would take care of it too.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    you must have not had many V6s because when ever I've had a rental or loaner car with a 4cyl in my garage it is noticeably louder at startup and idle, plus at acceleration from a stop

    if you read what I said carefully though, I've noticed over the years that the car manufactures have been improving this; for instance, I had a 2009 Altima 4cyl as a loaner car and could not believe how silent and quiet it was at idle and in brisk acceleration from a stop; the 4cyl in the Altima was even quieter than the I4 in an 2009 Acura TSX

    about a year ago I had a Honda Accord 4cyl and felt it sounded extremely noisy at start-up/idle and in brisk acceleration

    now that is not to say that every 6 cyl engine is quieter and more refined than every 4 cyl; for instance, I have a 2010 Maxima with the 290hp V6 and it is noticeable loud at start-up and idle and during brisk acceleration because of how much hp and torque there is under the hood, plus the CVT doesn't help in regards to quietness during acceleration; I would consider the altima I4 to be quieter and the maxima V6; the V6 engines in the infiniti lines are also noticeable noisy because they have over 300 hp

    on the other hand, my 2008 TL V6 is very quiet/refined at start-up and idle compared to my Maxima; I also test drove a 2010 Camry V6 and that engine was similarily quiet and refined as my TL's engine; most V6 engines in the 230-270hp range are pretty quiet and refined compared to V6s with 290hp+

    The point I was trying to make is that on avg most 6 cyl engines are quieter/more refined then 4 cyl engines at start-up and idle
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,708
    Of course if they were smart, they would use the "classic" configuration again - a small I6 engine(talking 2.5L or less) and RWD. Good MPG, nearly vibration free, and a ton of other benefits as well.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,630
    if you read what I said carefully though...

    No, obviously I didn't, probably because I am a total idiot with an IQ of 12. :P

    I can tell you that I have re-started (as in, while they were running) my four-cylinder cars a few times over the years, because they were so quiet and vibration free I couldn't tell they were running. Maybe besides my reading problem I have a hearing problem, too, but I haven't found I4s to be noticeably noisier at start-up and idle than the V6s I've owned and driven over 35 years.

    BTW... your handle is very appropriate.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    well then you must have had some unusual V6 vehicles in your garage over the years because that is not the case most of the time and as if the 35 years is suppose to make you seem correct, give me a break

    I swear I think people like you are on here only to argue; you act like I was trying to put down 4 cyl engines and I wasn't, I was just commenting on what someone else was stating in the great 4 vs 6 cyl debate; each has their pros and cons, I prefer 6 cyl engines but if I really like a car and it only came with a 4 cyl I would still get it

    The most quiet engines I have ever had over the years are 6 cyl; you say 4 cyl, but you don't have to come on here questioning my experience because you think you've seen different; I gave concrete examples of my reasoning; if you think you are correct give your examples
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,457
    funny you mention that. one of my kids gave a half hearted try at driving a stick.
    i think part of the problem was that it was so smooth, they couldn't learn to shift by ear like i did when i learned on a vw bug.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,457
    if you can afford better, why settle for a V6? a lot of the NVH work is external to the engine.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,630
    you act like I was trying to put down 4 cyl engines and I wasn't

    Not at all. I was stating my opinion on the relative noise from 4 cylinder and 6 cylinder engines, as you were. We clearly have differing opinions on this subject. But I can do without the personal putdowns, i.e. that I have some kind of reading comprehension problem. Was that because I happen to have a different opinion than you do? Am I "arguing" because I don't happen to agree with your opinion? Do you expect everyone on these forums to agree with everything you say?

    I am not questioning your experience. I was relating my own experience wrt this subject, which appears to be different from yours. You yourself said different engines act differently re noise. Maybe it's just that I've owned different vehicles than you have, or that what you consider "noisy startup and idle" is different than what I think.

    And if you had read my post carefully enough ;) , you would see that I did provide examples (remember re-starting the cars?). Do you want makes and models, too? Not sure I can remember all of them, because they include 200+ rentals over the years, but in one embarrassing case, I left the engine running on my 1976 Corolla DLX 2-door coupe in a parking lot, at night, because it was so quiet at idle I didn't realize it was running. Never did that again, but I have re-started a few cars as I noted.

    An opinion is neither right nor wrong--it's an opinion. You can agree or disagree with an opinion. If you have a different opinion than someone else, it doesn't make you "correct" and the other person "incorrect", or vice-versa.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    The noisiest vehicle at start-up that I can recall having is my wife's Jetta with the 5 cyl engine. That makes a crazy diesel like sound for several seconds (due to hydraulic lifters, according to the manual).

    The noisiest on acceleration, in recent times at least, would have to be the 3.8L V6 in our 1997 Windstar.

    I don't understand the claims that a V6 is somehow inherently more balanced than an I4. Why would the 4 be unbalanced? You would have one cyl firing for every 1/2 rev is that really so different from one every 1/3 rev for a V6? Doesn't the shorter crankshaft of the V design also result in more potential vibration problems vs. an I design?
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,218
    Are you implying that I shouldn't settle for a V6 and instead opt for a V8? V8 equipped vehicles fall out of the Midsize Sedans topic. To humor the comment, though, my budget goes into Genesis territory (not beyond .. I'm not rich), but I don't want to spend that much on a car that will get door dings and otherwise be abused by the careless drivers around the Chicago area.

    (OT drift: You should see the scrapes on my wife's passenger doors from the careless people where she works. Not just dings, although she has those as well, but out and out scrapes where a door was obviously slammed into her car. The attacker's car was red; that's how hard they "dinged" it. Amazing there's no real dent. And my car was new for all of three weeks before it was dinged. People just don't pay attention and don't care about other people's property at all. Also, the parking lot where I work has narrow spaces which doesn't help.)

    As to NVH work outside of the engine, that's true and such work would apply to both 4 & 6 cylinder models. Since it applies to both I'm not sure how it factors into the equation. Are manufacturers really adding more sound deadening material to V6 models to tone them down?

    My hearing is very sensitive to background noise. Hums from machinery, conversations at other tables at restaurants, radios in the background, etc. are all things that intrude my ability to focus on the task at hand or concentrate on a conversation. The part of my body's auditory system that filters/mutes background noise doesn't do as good a job as I would like. So I need quiet. I need a quiet engine as well as quiet tires. Especially when someone in the car *cough* wife *cough* isn't so quiet.

    That Hyundai is dropping the V6 certainly has jump started this discussion. I don't think the Midsize Sedans thread has been this active for a while.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    Not all sixes are created equal! A 60-degree V6 actually cancels out its own second-order vibrations, as does an inline six. A 90-degree V6, like the one in your Windstar, is not inherently balanced in this way.

    There are other factors too. Larger piston mass and longer connecting rods can both contribute to perceived roughness. This is why, for example, the VQ30 V6 from the Maxima of ten years ago is smoother than the VQ35 in today's Altima or the VQ37 in the 370Z, though they are all derived from the same basic design.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,630
    Re canceling vibrations... don't many I4s have "balance shafts" that are supposed to cancel out vibration? Those used to be pretty popular, but I don't hear much about them anymore. I don't know if that is because they are no longer used, or if they are so commonplace now that they aren't worth mentioning.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    My impression is that balance shafts are pretty universal now, at least for four-cylinder midsize sedans.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Go test drive a 2007 Lexus RX400h, and come back about engine noise. It has a V6 that sounds like it wants to leave the vehicle. I have driven a lot of i4 engines, and other then those about to throw a rod, none sound as bad as the V6 in the 400h.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,457
    don't be so narrow minded there are also straight 6's and flat 6's. ;)
    you can get a v8, but they are at the top end (M3, IS-F).
    a lot of v6's (and 4's) have things like active engine mounts to cut down on NVH.
    i agree with a prior post that a lot of larger 4's have balance shafts, to help out with the same.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    If Wikipedia is to be believed...
    "Due to the odd number of cylinders in each bank, V6 designs are inherently unbalanced, regardless of their V-angle" and
    "An inline six engine is in perfect primary and secondary mechanical balance, which can be achieved without using a balance shaft" and
    "An inline four cylinder or V6 engine without a balance shaft will experience secondary dynamic imbalance, resulting in engine vibration." and
    "An even-firing inline-four engine is in primary balance"

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight-six_engine

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V6_engine

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inline-four_engine
  • cannon3cannon3 Posts: 296
    I am hearing the 2010 Car of the year is the Ford Fusion!? Ford has come a long, long way in just 5 years. Quality, reliability ratings, safety ratings all at the top. Beings the owner of an 06 Fusion SEL V6, and now reaching about 50,000 rattle free, squeak free, trouble free miles.. I grin. I know I bought a quality vehicle, for thousands less than a comparable Accord/Passat/Camry. Next for me is the 2011 Ford Focus.. Where do I sign??
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Why the 2011 Focus, are they finally going to update it?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,630
    Maybe Ford will make it a lot bigger... mid-sized, even!

    ;)
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