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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • "I liked the fact the car had new tires" "exactly the same car"
    I think other things would come into my thinking and maybe you researched this too. Was the car you bought a 1 owner car? No one takes care of a car better than the first owner. Did it have a clean carfax? Was it garage kept? What about other things that wear out like brakes, belts, fluids? The tires are expensive but if it needs brakes and a transmission flush you will be spending about the same amount as tires. I can see buying a new car and only focus on price but on Used you have to be real careful not to end up with someone else"s Lemon.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: I70 & I75Posts: 18,046
    >Did it have a clean carfax?

    If you believe their advertising that carfax has all information, you're going to get taken sometime. Carfax does not have everything that has happened to the car in its report.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    For 25 yrs I was in industrial sales and management. I sold steel to the Big 3 as a sole supplier, the appliance makers, huge construction companies and privately owned steel service centers and component makers. That's hardazz business.

    It's more corporate and refined but since the sales run into the $millions per transaction the positions taken are a lot tougher ( hardazz ) where neither side will budge in a negotiation which might take weeks, months or years. This would be the norm rather than the exception.

    There are similar situations in the retail auto business. A knowledgable buyer arrives knowing exactly which vehicle he or she wants and states...'I'll buy this vehicle at this price OTD..take the offer to the decision-maker...take it or leave it.' There's no perjorative here this is just a hardazz position that arises from time to time. However in the retail business these are the exceptions rather than the rule. That was my point.

    Everyone should fight for every dollar they have so that they spend only when they see sufficient value available in the product or service being offered. This point though is highly highly highly subjective. Where the knowledgable 'hardazzs' herein see the price as the key component...this is not the most important criteria for most buyers.

    The majority of buyers - OK, in our market - have another hierarchy. The sales person is the most important variable for the largest part of the buying public. Buyers will spend more with a person that they like and trust. Compound that with a brand and a company and a location that they like and trust then the synergies build on one another. It works. I see it daily.
  • stephen987stephen987 Posts: 1,994
    Carfax reports rely heavily on data from state agencies--and not all states collect the same data. For example, Florida maintains fairly detailed information about vehicles involved in a variety of accidents (where the damage was, and approximate cost of repair IIRC), while Georgia only reports that there was an "accident" and whether a salvage title was issued. Some states will record a failed emissions inspection, or a passed one--others don't test regularly for this. Some states have safety inspections and others don't--and not all of those that have them will report it to Carfax. So a Carfax report is only as good as the state records used to compile it.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Yep that's a good view at both Toyota stores, both Honda stores, Chevy, Acura and Hyundai. But I didn't say that price was of no consideration, it has to be. That's the job of the vehicle maker. Price though - in this market - is not something the dealers fight about in public, neither in print nor on radio. It works. Our growth shows that it does.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Basically it covers how many times the car has been through registry, which is one way to determine if the car came from a leasing company or as a rental. It will also report if the car was in an accident, or any other thing that caused an insurance claim, As long as it was reported. If it wasn't reported and a repair was made that was paid for in cash by the owner, it will not show up on a Carfax.

    An example of this would be the 1995 Mercury Grand Marquis that I am restoring for my mom, she loves the car and had some munches done on the fenders and doors. I am repairing those, and replaced one fender, but if you got a Carfax on it, none of this would be shown on it. In fact this car had a Clean Carfax, and after getting into it I found a lot of body work has been done, and nearly the entire car has been resprayed. In the Used car market, even with a Carfax, it is Buyer Beware!
  • Thanks, now we are on the same page, you are exactly right about a person
    being attached to a certain product in most cases I fall in that group. Not to
    knock any particular brand but me and most of my family were 100% GM.
    But after giving them a more than fare shake (about 30 years and 10
    vehicles later) I found it may be in my best interest to change and for the
    last 14 years I have been very satisfied. Have bought cars from 3 different
    carmakers and all gave better service overall than 30 years of brand X. Still
    have a Mazda 626 V6 thats 8 years old and has only been in the shop several
    times for minor stuff, over 150k miles excellent little car. Just bought the wife a
    new Sonata SE V6 so far fantastic automobile, 15000k miles the smoothest
    running easyest handling car I have ever owned and the MPG/HP rating is by
    far the best also. I plan on being a long time owner of these 2 brands and I
    also will keep shopping the best deal, I don't always have to be a "hardazz"
    to buy, sometimes a sensible fare offer is all thats needed, both sides are
    happy.

    I actually get called "HARDASS" most of the time but my grandchildren call
    me a big "teddybear" Happy car shopping!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    Yes, a one-owner (leased) car. I talked with her on the phone. Nice lady, from a rural part of WI. Loved the car, but decided to turn it in at end of lease and get something with a darker interior (this one is light grey). Said she always took good care of the car and it looks it. Just one tiny touched-up nick or I couldn't tell it from new w/o looking at the odometer. All service history was in the Carfax, including the oil changes every 3,000 miles (fairly unusual I've found)--but so was a lot of erroneous info that would lead someone to believe the car had been offered for sale about six times since new (it wasn't). I agree with other posts that Carfax has some use, but is not perfect. The car still has almost 2-1/2 years of factory warranty left on it, in case there is something amiss.
  • Yes you are correct but I will still ask to see the carfax as a source of information. How many owners did it have, was it leased? If it did have more than one owner how long did they own it. You can learn from any source of info you can get. I ask for the carfax so it does not cost me anything so its just more info that the seller may or may not tell me. There was a couple times where a dealer would not get me the carfax on a car what does that tell you? Something to hide so yes you can get burned anytime you buy a used car but the more sources of info you can get the better off you are.
  • backy:
    Looks like you got the right deal. Anytime you can talk to the prevous owner and they have no reason to stretch the truth you will get the real story. It seems like a lot of dealers around here will go to extreme mesures for the customer not to find the prevous owner. I noticed that about carfax also when it looks like it had muliple owners in a short period of time but with a little common sense you can figure it out.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    "According to the United States Environmental Protection Agency, Hyundai cars averaged 30.1 miles per gallon for the 2009 model year.

    Rounding out the top five are Honda (29.7 mpg), Volkswagen (29.6), Toyota (29.4) and Kia (28.0). Naturally, we can expect all of these figures to continue rising in the coming years as every automaker strives to meet the upcoming 35.5 mpg U.S. standard for the 2016 model year."

    Looks like the new DI 4 cyl that Hyundai is putting in the '11 Sonata will up the game in this contest even more. Since that is their bread and butter car, the 35+(old 4's 32 hwy mpg + 10%) hwy mpg that is estimated should have a major effect on the company's overall efficiency. No real trucks really helps here.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    Don't forget the hybrid variant of the Sonata is coming also, along with a redesigned Tucson, Accent, and Elantra in the next year or so that will no longer use the old Alpha and Beta engines, but engines with greater fuel efficiency AND power. I don't expect Honda, Toyota et. al. will be sitting still though. And as you implied, Toyota's average would be much higher considering only cars and crossover SUVs.
  • berriberri Posts: 4,141
    IMHO Hyundai needs to put their focus on suspension to meet up with Camcord and even Fusion and Malibu. The Sonata just doesn't seem to ride and handle as smoothly.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    Vehicle .... Nov 09 .... YTD.......vs 11/08 YTD
    Camry ..... 27400 .... 321900 .... ( 89500 )*
    Accord .... 17200 .... 261800 .... ( 88600 )
    Altima ..... 15500 .... 184900 .... ( 67000 )
    Fusion .... 13800 .... 162000 .... + 24500**
    Malibu .... 11100 .... 142200 .... ( 18700 )
    Sonata ..... 8200 .... 109500 ...... ( 1200 )***

    *Loss of Solara sales included but Venza replacement not included
    **The only midsizer to increase sales this year
    ***Close to breakeven despite a down year for the industry.

    Conclusions:
    The Fusion and Sonata have prospered this year obviously and the Malibu is doing decently given what GM went through. Fleet Sales results pending.
    The Camry lost a lot of sales but remains solidly the King of the Hill. The addition of the Venza is a big plus for the corporation as a replacement for the Solara.
    The Accord and the Altima have taken it on the chin.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 221
    From montgomeryadvertiser.com on Nov 30, the hyundai plant success is addressed as follows: About 10:30 a.m. today, it will roll off the end of the line as the millionth vehicle produced at the plant. The first Montgomery-made Sonata in March 2005 and the plant's first Santa Fe the next year received signatures from workers at the plant and have been kept as a couple of museum pieces.
    Vehicle No. 1 million won't have such a simple life. Hyundai builds cars to sell them, and this one will be sold like any other vehicle.
    According to plant spokesman Robert Burns, it is likely to end up in a rental fleet somewhere. The rental car companies have been stocking up on 2010 Sonatas, and the bulk of the production of that model now is going to fleets.


    Hyundai apparently makes fleet sales a significant portion of its business. Ford and GM paid the price for this and if history repeats itself, hyundai owners will have cars that plummet in resale value real fast and eventually, the fleet sales may come back to haunt hyundai as well.
  • berriberri Posts: 4,141
    Hyundai is a poor depreciator, not just fleet sales, but massive promotions. You've got to wonder how than can sell so cheaply without maybe Korean government support???
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    There is another side to fleet sales. It puts "butts in seats." One of Hyundai's biggest issues, maybe the biggest, is the number of people who wouldn't consider buying one. Sometimes that's because they refuse to buy a Hyundai. But sometimes it's because of unfamiliarity. I got familar with Hyundai--first the Elantra, then the Sonata--via rentals. The positive experience I had with those rentals was a big reason I bought a Hyundai ten years ago, and why I bought a Sonata this past weekend. While test-driving that car, I mentioned I already knew a lot about it, mostly from many rentals. The sales rep replied that he's had many customers come in to look at the Sonata because they were exposed to it as a rental. I was also first exposed to the Fulan via rentals, and was so impressed I put it on my shopping list a couple of times in the past 3 years (couldn't work out a good enough deal, however). OTOH, I've eliminated some cars from contention because of my rental experiences.

    So there's some upside for automakers to sell to fleets. Another being, they are profitable sales. Maybe not as profitable as a retail sale or lease w/o big incentives, but they add to the bottom line.

    One thing I've wondered, though... as some companies cut back on fleet sales, what if others didn't step up to meet that demand? Would all of us folks who need to rent cars for business or vacation travel be driving around in five-year-old cars with 75k miles on them? :sick:

  • One thing I've wondered, though... as some companies cut back on fleet sales, what if others didn't step up to meet that demand? Would all of us folks who need to rent cars for business or vacation travel be driving around in five-year-old cars with 75k miles on them?


    I think that is happening. The last Ford Fusion rental (Hertz) car I got had 53k, the Subaru Legacy rental (Budget) car I got this last July was an '07. It might be regional as well: I have always gotten a Ford in MI, a Hyundai in OH, and until the Subaru, a GM in CA (although that car was made when GM still had a stake in Subaru, I think). Eh I take that back, I have gotten a Fusion in CA too, but its been almost always GM vehicles. Everything recently has had a lot of miles on it though.

    Oh and there are differences in fleet sales. Fleet sales to Hertz, Enterprise, or what not are usually not so helpful, while sales to So Cal Edison, Cox Cable, AT&T, etc are usually more positive.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    Yeah, I said pretty much the same thing a couple of days ago on this forum. I think Hyundai knew that with the all new model coming this spring they would have to sell the '10 Sonata at huge discounts so why not avoid the hassle and sell them at huge discounts in large chunks to rental fleets. Also, keeping the presses running pays the light bills and is also a way of advertising and creating that mainstream perception.

    The reason that the big 3 were so tied to rental fleets was because of union contracts. If they stopped the lines they had to pay the workers about 90% of what they usually made and layoffs were also difficult so they kept the presses running and sold them to rental fleets. Now comes Uncle Sam bailout, bankruptcy, union contracts void. They can now stop the presses without too much pain and less fleet sales. Those are my thoughts anyway....just adding 2 + 2.
  • i'm planing to buy altima 2.5s, the dealer offered me 2009 altima 2.5s ODT: $20534, is this price resealable? or i still can get lower price through negotiation? and how to negotiate with dealer? i really have no idea how to do this? any tips? thanks
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