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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    edited November 2013
    "So what would you pay in tax on your Optima if your kept it 10 years?"

    Well, it would be $4.57 per every $100 of value, or $228 on a car valued at $5000, but the County subsidizes the first 20,000 of value by 63%, so you would owe $85 on a 10 year old car worth $5000.

    So, on a car valued at $20,000/100 = 200 x 4.57 = 914 x 63% = $575.82.

    So, then $914 - $575 = $339 Total tax due

    I paid about $360 last year and will end up paying about $300 this year.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,664
    You got me curious, so I looked up on one of my spreadsheets how much property tax we have paid on our 2004 Escape.
    The original MSRP was 28,500, although we did pay a lot less than that.
    In 9 years we have paid about $2500. Kind of depressing.
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 791
    That was a reference to 'The Walking Dead' right? It's filmed primarily in Senoia, GA (south of downtown Atlanta) and the Lifetime program "Drop Dead Diva" also films in Senoia and nearby Peachtree City, GA.

    Zombies and Divas I can handle, but the miserable heat/humidity that we have at least six months out of the year is almost unbearable!
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,688
    Yeah but at least we have the Falcons and Braves!

    Oh wait...........
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    Glad you got the joke! That is so cool that the show is filmed there. We get the same heat that you do in VA, but our season is a little shorter.

    You know, my car doesn't like the heat either. I can really tell the Optima is down on power when the heat and humidity are high. It is not just the A/C compressor either. The air has less 0/2 as well I am told. My last vehicle was a V8 and really didn't show the strain as much.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    Yeah.... I can't even bear to talk about the Redskins.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    edited November 2013
    As I am following it down the road I finally understand what my attraction is for the Sport. It has a BMW stance. It looks classy, and fast. I know it isn't, as it has similar power as my car, but it looks very high quality.

    I also still notice the lack of Mazda 6 vehicles on the road. I have not seen one since the last time I posted about it. There are three Mazda dealers within 11 miles, so it isn't an availability problem.

    Is Mazda not competitive price wise? I wish I knew why they are not selling more after getting so much good press.

    Also, what the heck happened to the Mitsubishi Galant? I remember when they sold pretty good and had all these high-tech features back in the 90's. Hmmm.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    It might be price, for the Mazda6. Dealers don't seem in any mood to deal on them right now. For example, I saw a "special offer" in the paper on Mazda leases, and on a base Mazda6 the lease would have been ~$300/month for 36 months, factoring in up-fronts. Leases on competitors like Sonata, Optima, Camry, Altima, and Passat are a lot less... I've seen all of them for less than $250/month for 36 months with nothing out of pocket.

    Interestingly, advertised Accord leases are only a bit lower than those on the Mazda6, yet Accords are selling well. But Accord has a much bigger reputation and fan base than the Mazda6.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    I think it is also price for what you get. The Grand Touring has no bump in hoserpower or not so much zoom zoom for $33,000. I wouldn't buy it over Accord either. As a matter of fact, I would buy the Accord Sport over the Mazda Sport. There is just more "Sport" in the Honda. If you know what I mean. Plus, I really like the Honda's black cloth seats. I know you are a "man of the cloth" so, have you seen them? Take a peek next time you see one if not.
  • fushigifushigi Posts: 1,235
    Also, what the heck happened to the Mitsubishi Galant? I remember when they sold pretty good and had all these high-tech features back in the 90's. Hmmm.

    As one of the few Mitsu followers here I'll address that.

    The Galant, along with platform mates the Endeavor and Eclipse, were discontinued a couple of years ago. The Normal, IL plant where the 3 vehicles were manufactured was retooled to build Outlander Sports, and potentially other vehicles that share it's platform (Outlander, Lancer, Evo). Sports built in Normal are exported globally.

    As the former owner of a '99 Galant I can say it was a good car (reliable, good features & value) and that generation was by and large competitive. I kept it for over 10 years and 152K miles. But the '04 and up gen was not competitive and sales outside of rental fleets suffered. Combine with market issues affecting the Eclipse and it no longer made sense to keep the line going.

    Personally I hope Mitsu re-enters the midsize market, even if by no other means than rebadging an offering from another (non-Chrysler) manufacturer. I'm sure that not having a midsize sedan impacts their foot traffic. I wanted them to adopt the Kizashi but I've no idea what Suzuki is doing now that their auto biz has departed our shores.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    I have seen very recent commercials for the Outlander Sport, with the ad saying proudly "part of a full line of Mitusbishi products". I wasn't able to find any other USA products. I know they still sell overseas, with the Montero being semi legendary for durability. I think it is a shame too. A friend loved his Eclipse Turbo and drove it for many years beyond 100,000 miles.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    I was comparing lease prices on base models, not higher trims like Grand Touring. I wouldn't buy any $33,000 mid-sized family sedan. For that kind of money, I could get a VERY nice slightly used luxury car or small SUV. But I wouldn't do that... I have better places to spend that kind of money than cars. This is from a guy whose daily driver is a Kia Rio5! :)

    "Sport" isn't just power to me. Handling is more important than power. And by all accounts the Mazda6 is great there. Also IMO it looks a lot more "sport" than the Accord.

    I don't like black cloth seats in general (although my Mazda6i Sport has two-tone grey/black, but I bought the car used on the cheap and I love it otherwise). I prefer lighter color interiors, or black with a lighter accent color like tan, so the interior isn't too cave-like.
  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    Forget about advertised lease prices regardless of make. I got my GT with the radar cruise control/FOW package for $50 less a month than the advertised base sport automatic that had an a MSRP $8K lower. I paid a few hundred under invoice in Apr and the prices have definitely come down and they recently had a money factor near zero like the Camry had not too long ago which made it a super buy.
    There's a few reasons why sales aren't good. At the low end, it is not such a great buy with the standard equipment as compared to other mid-size. At the high end, you get bells and whistles not available on competitors but not the power. If you don't mind a 4 cyl, it's a terrific car. I don't like to provide opinions on specifics since we all have our own likes and dislikes, but since I've been married with a kid, my non-SUV's have been a Camry, Passat and Accord. When I was divorced, I drove Audis and Saabs and I drive my wife's Volvo quite a bit so I'm not judging it in a vacuum.
    Pass a law that you must test drive every mid-size before you can get one. I assure you more sales of Mazda, Kia and some others would go up and sales of Camrys would go down.
    Incidentally, after months of not seeing another on the road, I saw two this week so I can now report there are four in North Jersey, three of them blue.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I wonder too if the Honda (ironically) has a quieter interior than the Mazda? That's the impression I have gotten so far, and that sure would affect my choice if I was fence-sitting a bit. I'm done with road/wind roar. I'm almost ready to be Buickized, haha..altho not quite cuz the ball seems to get dropped pretty quick when "towing not recommended" is stated in the literature. For my uses anyway..

    Random question for those 'in the know'. I borrowed a db meter and have been checking sound levels in my CRV. Dang it's a loud box. On the meter there is a switch that says "weighted". If it is in that position it makes the sensitivity greater..or IOWs db switch choices..60, 70, thru to 110db, has to be set much higher. To try to clarify, if it is in 'weighted', db position must be set to 90 db in order to centre line swing of 0 db. Which suggests the CRV ranges from 88 to 97db. But...surely not? So when in the non weighted switch, then db position is set tio a more realistic 70 db range which reads about 67 to 78 db in normal driving (idle to about 75 mph). IOWs.. pretty dang loud.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    I don't see how you don't see the Accord Sports good looks! It just works for me. I know my Optima is;s just a grass is greener on the other side kinda thing. The inside of the Accord is anything but cave like. It is sharp to me, except for the pasti-silver on the HVAC controls, Honda did a good job for a car costing just $23,000.

    On the Mazda, I would never plunck down $30,000 on a car with 185 HP 4 cyl. No way. I think other feel that way too. There are too many other choices with more scoot for that kind of bread. I think we are saying the same thing. Neither would spend more than $25,000 on a car.

    I am saying that the best mid size cars to test in that price range are the Accord Sport, Mazda 6 Sport and Optima EX. For 30,000 plus, it becomes a whole new ball game. One I cannot afford to play w/ three kids!
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    I have never considered interior noise levels when buying a car. I end up blaring Iron Maiden anyway.

    The Optima is as quiet as I need it to be. In other words; it is so quiet that it's a non issue. I am more concerned with the noise generated by 3 children INSIDE the car, especially after a long trip!
  • ahightowerahightower TXPosts: 476
    edited November 2013
    Brief update on my Accord Sport as I come up on five months of ownership.

    I still turn and look as I walk away from it in parking lots. The exterior details of the Sport continue to impress. The wider tires give it a nice stance. The wheel design is attractive, and the painted gray really hides brake dust well. The subtle lip spoiler and dual exhaust give it a pretty rear end.

    Power is adequate, and delivery is smooth. It likes to rev, and the manual gearbox is very good. The interior is holding up well. Seat fabric is very durable, and the faux aluminum trim feels and looks less fake than most, and is not scratched.

    Fuel economy is 28.8 mpg over the first 6K, which I think is pretty good for such a roomy car. (The Mazda was 31.5 mpg over 90K.) I am not a speed demon, but neither am I being especially frugal. Just driving it however I like, and noticing very little variation from tank to tank. I never use Econ mode - I like the more immediate throttle response and stronger A/C action in normal mode, and am perfectly capable of backing off and driving smoothly when I wish - and now that it's well broken-in, I don't hesitate to rev it high once in a while, and run along at 75-80 when traffic permits. I haven't been on any long highway trips yet, just suburban commuting.

    Here's the Fuelly data (I love this app):

    It's been nice toting around the family of five with plenty of room for all. This car will extend the life of our Yukon, now that it is not our only option for whole-family transportation.

    Hill-holding... so convenient! I prided myself on having excellent hill control of my last MT with fast footwork and occasional handbrake, but this is pretty nifty.

    No significant problems. The "check fuel cap" message came on last night, and again this morning... I did, and it's fine. I'll have that addressed when I go in for my first free oil change in a couple of weeks, if it's still there. Otherwise, nothing.

    The Car&Driver long term test (I think it was C&D) indicated they had brake problems (warped rotors) before 10K, and I've heard of similar problems with many Honda models for a long time. But they now use venthilated front discs which should prove more durable under aggressive driving (which I don't really do). I suspect the journalists are driving like idiots who don't have to make the car payments... and expect no trouble of my own.

    I came out of a 2008 Mazda3i and just can't get over what a substantial upgrade this car is. It's so quiet, powerful, and roomy compared to the last car that I honestly cannot fathom spending more for an Acura or what-have-you. Who needs a "luxury" sedan when today's average family sedans are so feature rich and well built? All in all, the best car I've owned so far.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,536
    great write up. I'm glad you are so happy with your accord sport. Fuelly is a great site. I'm not a complete fuel economy geek either, but it is cool to track FE & cost per mile. My fuelly nickname is: ctcarnut

    Good to know your accord has room for 5. There are 5 of us & we take my wife's Pilot together when we travel as a family. I might consider something in this category as my next ride when the lease is up on my 328xi next September. It would be nice to have 2 vehicles capable of holding all 5 of us.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    You are quite a lucky guy. It sounds like it has everything you need, it is getting great F/E, and it looks good doing it. I think the Sport is the most attractive 4 door Accord period.

    I feel the need to reiterate: Why does Honda keep the 18" rims for only the Sport model alone, along with the lip spoiler and the dual pipes?

    Well hey, if the best looking Accord is $23,500, then I guess Honda doesn't care that they are losing out on lots of EX and EX-L buyers, and the extra profit margins those models bring.

    I posted earlier that I thought the Sport most looks like a traditional sport sedan, not a sedan trying to be a sports car. It has a very BMW-esque stance to it. I congratulate Honda for sticking to the recipe w/o being trendy.

    I love it.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,664
    The Accord is good at the 'Sport' level, but once you get to the top of the line, it loses something.
    I have a Fusion Titanium and the Accord the interior doesn't compete in design, as a place to be.
    Accord rear passenger area is more comfortable for adults, but nobody will be impressed by it, other than the space.
    Just under 10k miles and my average MPG is 28.6. I have been on some long trips.
    The Fusion is a heavy car, so it probably won't match an Accord 4 Cyl, but I've exceeded the 33 highway rating several times.
    Of course the Fusion has a lot more HP and it's completely effortless power.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    Yes, but 5 years down the road will the Fusion retain it's tight feel? Will it last as long as the Accord? I agree on the interior. The Fusion is more modern, has good use of materials, and is well thought out ergonomically. The Accord's use of alumi-plastic on the HVAC controls is dreadful. That part of the instrument cluster needs a rethink. Fusion has My Ford Touch, and has few actual knobs and buttons, making simple and frequently adjusted functions more time consuming. (Although it has actual buttons on the wheel like any other mid size...).

    The Fusion has 240 HP on premium. The Accord V6 has 278, and weighs less. .

    The Fusion Titanium is very stylish, the Accord is more upright and retains more sedan and less sporty-stylishness.

    It is a hard choice to decide between the two, but I would take the Honda. Personal preference.
  • ahightowerahightower TXPosts: 476
    Our kids are young. Out of car seats but not fully grown. The back seat is wide and flat, the "hump" is not uncomfortable for a preteen. I plan to take it on some trips that don't require more than a night's luggage.
  • vservser Posts: 48
    Yeah. Try to seat a preteen girl on the hump in the fusion or optima and enjoy that whining.

    But otherwise if the accords interior was better it might be a home run or at least a triple. That center stack just kills me. Soooo busy.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    I feel your pain on the preteen seating. I have 3 kids, all girls. 8,11, and 13.

    My kids fight for the front seat, since whomsoever gets it also decides on the music. The tuning knob is in a perfect spot for them to scroll through my USB thumb drive collection.

    At least neither car has the screen protruding from the dash like an i-pad. It's ironic that it looks cheap, since Mercedes, BMW, and Audi seem to think it looks great. I wouldn't have it unless it retracts.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    These annual property taxes really are a bit of an eye opener for me. Still, after doing some math we still get severely gouged more to buy and own a new car for 3-5 years here compared to most US States, even if we don't get nailed an annual tax on it as being property..Hell just the extra we pay for fuel alone really sends the point home in in-the-end costs.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    I have never considered interior noise levels when buying a car. I end up blaring Iron Maiden anyway.

    As quiet as your Optima is, believe me, it's when there is a lot of road noise that even a great stereo still has to be turned up a lot. I too listen to my tunes pretty loud and even with a killer sound system, believe is constantly trying to compete with potential road and wind noise. If you don't believe me, just trying listening to your fav IM at 75 mph on a windy day on float top paved roads (if you even have floattops down there?) and then park the car and shut the engine off. Make sure you have speed/volume compensation turned OFF. Notice how frig loud and clear tho that the stereo is? It seems louder than before and it is because it was trying to overcome all the other interior noice that traveling creates. Gimme a Buick like car interior db level in my economy car anyday..hell...charge me a grand for that package..I'd pay.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,664
    If you change the comparison to a V6 Accord to a I4 Fusion, the Accord is gong to suffer in stop and go conditions.
    I think they both can exceed the highway rating.
    As far as interior controls go, the Fusion has voice commands in addition to the screen, dash buttons(touch points), and steering wheel.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    I was comparing top engine to top engine. Yes, the V6 Accord will suffer in MPG to the Fusion in stop and go. Absolutely.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    What is a float road? I had a hard time finding the term on Google.

    So, I take it is a road built over the permafrost, right? Please explain!

    No float roads in VA/DC/MD! It only freezes hard here for maybe 10 days in a row in winter.
    Concrete roads/highways are loud down here and go clomp clomp clomp where the slabs meet. I guess older roads in our Interstate system were made with concrete. When you transfer back to blacktop there is a huge difference in noise level, but again, noise just doesn't bother me.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Float top roads are paved roads with tar and pebbles, as opposed to tar and chips. Chips...especially when hot-rolled, give a smooth, quiet surface. Some moreso than others tho. With these though, they lay down pebbles on top of a well packed gravel base. Then layer tar/pebbles, more tar..more pebbles and then have a thick layer of pebbles on the surface. When they leave, it looks like a gravel road with pretty uniform layered pebbles. With use over the next week to three depending on use, the top layer of pebbles gets pushed down into the tar. Eventually, this leaves the pebbles peaking the surface which as you can imagine, are real tire shredders. They stick up anywhere from barely breaking the surface, to about 3/8". Many are not round like a pebble would suggest. Most are sharp edged. (People wonder why I use to get only 1000 miles out of my sportbike rubber when I peg-scraped around here). Just amazingly predictable though once all the loose surface stuff gets flown and washed with rain to the ditches. Super challenging when pushing limits on the bike (and car FTM) before that happens though while you commit to the wheel tracks from cars, where the cleanest pavement is. It is an exercise in commitment and discipline like you wouldn't believe until you experience it...but I'm talking high limits and of course you work your way up to that or die trying if you accelerate that process too soon. This crap also is a windshield and paint chipper from oncoming or if you tailgate. I don't. Ever.

    Anyway, this stuff is so noisy you simply can't imagine it. Or ignore it..even you I think, cski. You can really tell how negligent a manufacturer is if you are in a medium priced car and the stones are rattling off the (unlined) fender well liners creating a cacophony of noise combined with wind and road roar.

    And re those float tops..why do they do it that way?? $$$$....why else?

    The worse part is if they cheap out way too much and try to do a too thin job. The first winter comes and the frost just breaks it up into one big pothole which then keeps the local district guys in work, patching. Even before winter comes, if it's too thin, a heavy dump truck turning into a driveway will lift and peel the stuff like peeling a banana. Usually that is where potholes start and then spread out full road length from there. in the sticks..
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