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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,285
    Unless the Malibu really rings your chimes versus the Altima, it isn't worth it. Too similar. Check out the compact SUV vehicles -any brand- if that works then you have something very different.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    I have free oil changes for life at the dealer. I would never use cheap oil change place, although the techs at Kia give me little comfort. (I check the oil before I even leave the dealer to make sure of:

    A) the tech replaced the dipstick

    B) There is oil in the car

    C) The oil is clean

    When I get home I check to see if there is still oil in the car (had a tech cross-tread a filter once on my Saturn and all my oil leaked out).

    I started a topic on the Optima board about the Optima 2.4 GDI cold start rattle, and it is normal. "Welcome to life with a direct injection 4 cylinder" is the answer i got from all 23 replies. Also, the noise I was concerned about at startup is just an engine with all it's oil in the pan, and it has solid lifters. It goes away completely in like 5 seconds. Also normal.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    Thanks man. I didn't know they had all the old issues online. Funny how now and back then, the Audi was in first place.

    Also funny the 5000s, and the Saab900 turbo were considered mid size sedans, and not luxury cars.

    Great, it is raining ice outside. Just what I-95 needs on the day before thanks giving!
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    Yes the Pontiac 6000 STE won 1st place in several CD reviews. I remember it being on the cover of a mid to late 1980's issue, with it's wheels off the ground going over a hill.

    I also remember being quite fond of the 1990 Chevy Beretta GT (3.1)
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,536
    My 1st car was a 1992 Beretta GT

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    My first car (that I financed myself) was an 87 Chevy Z24. Digi-dash, sunroof, wing, 5 speed, hood scoops. Red. 2.8 liter MFI. Purchased in 1990.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,663
    That's pretty much good news. Keep your receipts, just in case.
    Don't reply on the dealer's records if you need documentation.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Don't rely on the dealer's records if you need documentation.

    Good advice. I know it sounds a bit paranoid, but in past I have known situations where they (a dealer and their apparent lack of being able to supply mysteriously missing records) lacked the good moral character to own up to an issue.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    edited November 2013
    on mid-sized sedans based on ads in my local paper today. Examples are:

    * New 2013 Sonata GLS with PP for $18k.
    * New 2014 Camry L for $18k... and a 36 month lease on an LE for $145/month with about $2000 up front--interestingly, the same offer as on a 2014 Corolla LE!
    * New 2014 Passat S for $189/mo. lease, sign-and-drive, 36 months (doesn't have the new 1.8T of course, but a nice car for $189/month).

    No-shows on the Black Friday ads included Mazda6 (no ads at all), and Honda with a virtual no-show in that all the local dealers did is republish the usual national lease rates--local Honda dealers NEVER have ads with anything other than lease deals for some reason. I've seen purchase prices in ads in other cities so maybe it's just a Twin Cities Honda dealer collusion thing. ;)

    Happy Thanksgiving, and happy Black Friday car shopping for those venturing out tomorrow! I leased a Sonata last Black Friday, and got two other cars this year (one used, one new on a lease) so I'm set at least until the Sonata lease is up in a couple of years. I can sleep in tomorrow. :)
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    A couple of posts back I was advised to keep service records, which I do. I keep paper copies in my safe.

    I also have access to all my service visits online and can make appointments online as well. All very nice. Where Kia fails to meet expectations is at the service counter, and in the shop. Hopefully these area's will improve greatly in a short period of time, just like their products have.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,738
    On a recent 180 mile highway trip we got 37 mpg in our 2013 Accord 4 cvt going c. 70 mph with 4 people, a dog, and luggage. Pretty good.

    The dealer who sold me the car gave me the 1st oil change free, which I just claimed.

    Our 2008 Accord we got from the mega dealer in town, while the 2013 was from the much smaller dealer who offered a better price. Both have nice waiting areas and good service as far as I can tell. I do keep my receipts, but I'm also glad that Honda keep the records in their database as well.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,738
    Did anyone watch the Edmunds story of the guy who replaced his 14 year old Accord with a VW Passat turbo diesel? Nice enough video. Seems like he got a good enough price from the Edmunds price service. The mpg for a diesel Passat is very high (31 city and 43 highway), but personally I doubt that he will be keeping this car 14 years, even if he wants to. I honestly hope I'm wrong, and that VW has solved most of its reliability issues, but I fear that he will be spending more time at the dealer service center than he did with his old Honda. The Passat has been out long enough that they should have fixed most or all of the bugs by now, and perhaps it will be a very reliable car for him. Who knows, maybe he'll pop in here and let us know how he's doing?
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,738
    I'm guessing that there will be some blow-out sales of midsize cars this month. Anyone wishing to buy this month should be able to get a very good deal on a very nice car. Inventories are high for most models, and so dealers should be willing to deal to move the metal....
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,738
    The Accord made the list again, the only midsize and mid-price car to do so. One of their comments:

    "A six-speed Accord Sport sedan for $24,505 rates as the best all-around value for a new car, period."

    And you might, actually, be able to get 2000 off of that price.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/features/2014-10best-cars-feature-dynasties-2014-bmw- -3-and-4-series-honda-accord-page-3
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,738
    edited December 2013
    This is my 2 cents, obviously, and others would come up with different lists....

    Best styling (very subjective, I know)
    3-way tie: Optima, Fusion, Mazda6

    honorable mention (for me): Accord (in a form follows function way)

    worst (for me): Camry

    Best mpg standard model auto:
    Nissan Altima is rated 31 combined mpg by the EPA

    honorable mention: Accord 30, Mazda6 30

    Safest:
    Accord, according to IIHS

    Fastest acceleration:
    V-6: Accord
    4 with 6 speed manual: Accord
    4 auto: Accord again? Or is someone else faster? Don't know...

    Best handling and steering:
    Mazda6, according to most comparison test drives that I've read

    Best visibility:
    Accord

    Quality and reliability:
    tie? Optima, Accord and maybe some others?

    The midsize segment is the most competitive its ever been. The winner is the consumer....
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    Glad you brought up the TDI Passat. It helped Volkswagen sell a lot more TDI models than expected.

    Sales of its diesel products rose to almost 30% this year, much greater than the 18% expected.

    The Passat is what helped them do it apparently. I would much rather drive a Passat TDI than a Prius or really almost any other high MPG sedan. I think view it as a better alternative to buying hybrid this and that, which are a lot more complicated and expensive, and nowhere near as classy and attractive. A diesel really suits american driving tastes too. Lots of torque down low delivers the "oomph" we crave down low to squirt into traffic w/o prayer or drama.

    How do I know? I owned a '96 Green Passat TDI. It had a whopping 90 horsepower, but almost 200 lb ft of torque. It got the job done, and I got 45 mpg w/o even trying.
  • jayriderjayrider Posts: 3,285
    In Europe, they keep their cars for 10 years plus. They accept the fact that repairs will occur and pay for dealer maintenance to minimize problems. Unlike service personnel here, the euro techs know their cars well because they dominate the market. If you meticulously maintain that TDI with personnel that actually know the engine, you should get at least a decade of use from it maybe more.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    If I was shopping today it would be:

    Most attractive for under $25,000

    Accord Sport, Mazda6 Sport, Optima EX

    Most attractive over $25,000
    Accord V6 Touring, Passat 3.6 SEL, Optima SX-L (I would love to say Mazda 6 Touring....but not w/ 185 hp for $32,000)

    Least attractive/memorable
    Camry, Malibu, Altima
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,738
    edited December 2013
    What you say is true, but running some epa estimated annual fuel costs I got a shock....

    The EPA estimates the following
    2014 Passat turbo diesel auto, 34 combined mpg
    Annual fuel cost: c. $1700

    2014 Nissan Altima 31 combined
    Annual fuel cost: c. $1550

    Since diesel fuel costs more than regular gas these days, the higher mpg of the Passat turbodiesel can be more than wiped out....

    The Kia Optima, by the way, was estimated to have annual fuel costs of $1750. So the difference between your car and a Passat diesel is maybe one tank a year? Not worth the smoke and hassles of a diesel imho.

    But maybe the epa underestimates the mpg of diesels? I don't know....
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,248
    Around here there is little to no chance of getting highway miles to offset city miles for a better average.

    I have started to try to correct my driving habits recently. Easy on the gas, and using the instant mileage meter to try and keep it over 25 mpg. It is darn hard. I am still at 22 mpg. It is frustrating to not get the 24 mpg on the sticker...ever.

    I am going to ask on the Optima boards what kind of MPG they are getting. I will report back in 24 hours with some figures. Should be interesting.
  • suydamsuydam Posts: 948
    I'm mostly in rural driving, very little highway. And now winter gas too. My EX-L Accord gets 27 mpg in those conditions, just as advertised. Very happy with it.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,738
    Camry 30,386
    Accord 27,093
    Altima 24,604
    Fusion 22,839
    Sonata 16,595
    Malibu 14,405
    Optima 10,871
    Passat 8,876
    200 5,621
    Avenger 4,887
    Mazda6 3,641
    Legacy 2,911
    (source: tsx at vtec.net. Thanks)
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,738
    edited December 2013
    At this point each of the manufacturers of the top 4—Toyota, Honda, Nissan, and Ford—have the capacity to make at least 33,000 of their midsize model every month. And Toyota can make up to 40,000 Camrys each month.

    Bottom line: no one is selling as many as they can make at this point.

    I thought by now it might be closer to neck and neck, and that the Camry might be stumbling a little more than it is. I still expected it to win for calendar year 2013, but now I have to admit that it's not even that close. Toyota has said they'll put as much cash on the hood as needed to stay #1, and so I expect them to have a total blowout in December. My guess is that more than 40,000 new Camrys will find new homes this month.

    My other guess, however, is that Honda, Nissan, and Ford, will also up their incentives, although not by nearly as much. In any case, I expect that they will all have a banner month, which each of them selling more than 30,000 of their car in December.

    But the rankings for the year will be much like you see here. Camry will have a strong lead for #1. Honda is making progress and closing the gap a little, but since they built a better (and more expensive to build and sell car), they can't give them away. They need to sell them on quality and value, which is working so far.

    Nissan, however, I expect to realize that their attempt at a home-run with the new Altima was only a double. They might put some major money on the their car and start blowing them out the door.

    Ford, however, is in a position closer to Honda's. Ford built a better and more expensive car with the Fusion, and so although low Mexican wages help them out a bit on the price front, they won't start giving away the new model. That's why just a couple of months after starting production of the Fusion in Michigan they are already dialing back their number there.

    VW must be upset about the Passat. I think they were expecting numbers close to the Sonata at this point, but so far it's just not happening, even with the success of their turbo diesel models.

    Mazda is doing well with the all-new 6, but as someone once said, "twice nothing is still nothing." 3,600 a month isn't nothing, but at this point they aren't a big player. But expect the sales of the Mazda6 to grow strongly in 2014. A year from now they could double their numbers again, passing cars like the Avenger and 200.

    My 2 cents as I waste time....
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,738
    edited December 2013
    I'm also getting about 27 in the city in my 2013 Accord cvt, and as I already mentioned we get c. 36-39 on the highway. And so we are getting close to the epa rating of 27/36

    That compares with c. 23 in the city and 30-31 on the hwy with our 2008 Accord, which is also right around the sticker rating.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,738
    Year-to-Date
    Toyota Camry 378,520
    Honda Accord 334,357
    Nissan Altima 295,907
    Ford Fusion 270,872
    Hyundai Sonata 189,169
    Chevrolet Malibu 185,101
    Kia Optima 146,419
    Volkswagen Passat 100,398
    Chrysler 200 116,828
    Dodge Avenger 88,892
    Mazda6 39,273
    Subaru Legacy 39,352

    Read more: http://wot.motortrend.com/1312_november_midsize_sales_toyota_camry_in_first_pass- at_passes_200.html#ixzz2mSFDB52v
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,663
    I'm assuming 24 refers to the EPA city mileage rating.
    It's not a floor, any vehicle can do worse than the city rating, depending on driving style and conditions.
    My Explorer is rated at 14 MPG city. When my kids drove it, they regularly got between 11 and 12 MPG.
    Short trips and foot on the gas all the time.
    It took me 3 weeks to go through the last tank in my Fusion.
    Short trips, traffic, and winter gas returned the worst mileage ever, 23.9.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,663
    I hate to tell you this, but a Camry V6 is probably faster to 60 than an Accord V6.
    Any of the 2.0 turbo cars are fairly close the the V6's.
    The Fusion and Legacy are available with AWD, so they are the best handlers in the real world.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,738
    edited December 2013
    Car and Driver tested a 2013 Honda Accord V-6 to 60 in 5.6 seconds.

    C & D has a 2012 V-6 Camry SE at 5.8.

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/2013-honda-accord-sedan-v-6-test-review

    http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/toyota-camry-se-v6-road-test-review

    Edmunds has a 2.0 Fusion AWD making it to 60 in 6.9.

    http://www.edmunds.com/ford/fusion/2013/road-test-specs1.html
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,663
    The Accord and Camry were tested over 2 years apart, judging from the dates of the comments in each review.
    Not only that, the part of the country they were tested at, looking at the pictures, and thus the track was different.
    Not really an apples to apples comparison.
    Fusion was reviewed by Edmunds, not C&D, also not a straight up comparison.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,710
    The Accord made the list again, the only midsize and mid-price car to do so.

    Not sure which 10 Best list YOU saw, but the one I saw had the Mazda6 on it also. I consider the Mazda6 to be a "midsize and mid-price" car.
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