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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,043

    I rented a '13 Altima and thought it was certainly better than others available for the same rate.

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  • sandman_6472sandman_6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 2,680

    After all these many years, our family has owned all the foreign brands at one time or another...Nissan, Toyota, Honda, Mazda and now Hyundai. The only one we haven't tried is VW but a member of our extended family does own one as well as other family members. I'd say that over the years, they've all been great vehicles and have improved so so much. They really have set the benchmark in every segment. But with my job driving rental vehicles around the state, I have new respect for the domestic products coming out of Detroit. Heck, I almost bought a Buick this time around and if they had come down in price more, I would've bought the Encore small ute...a nice vehicle.
    Basically what I am saying here is that the domestics have closed the quality gap that the foreign brands held for so many years and buying American is as good as buying foreign. This is the real great automotive age in my opinion with every product better than the one before it!!!

    The Sandman :) B)

    2014 Hyundai Tuscon SE/2005 Mazda 3s/2008 Hyundai Accent GLS/2009 Nissan Versa SL hatch

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,781

    @brian125 said: Ben,

    That dam Camry just wont go away. No matter what Honda does... The Camry is also about 1k cheaper to manufactor than a Accord.

    Hi Brian,

    Yes, I expect the Camry will win the sales race in 2014 too, but I think it's going to be very close. Already the Accord is selling more at the retail level than Camry, and so it's only the rental cars that keep the Camry on top at this point.

    Honda has the capacity to build about 400,000 Accords a year for the US, and my guess is that sales for calendar year 2014 will get close to that. If the Camry stays about where it is, which is also around 400k a year, it will be very close.

    As you say, the Accord is a more expensive car to manufacture. It's literally a better car in almost every way you could name. For instance, the Accord's body has more ultra-high strength steel, the Accord's engine is more advanced, the interior of the Accord is nicer, etc. And I think the Accord has a higher level of standard stuff at most trim levels. But, as a result, as you say, it costs more for Honda to build the Accord, and they can't and won't "give them away" like Toyota.

    It'll be interesting to see what happens next year....

    Ben

  • sandman_6472sandman_6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 2,680

    I do know that the new Corolla is a better vehicle than the current Civic which seems to be a decontented model than the '06 that I had. Back then, the Civic was the better vehicle but wow, what difference a few years can make! Agree that the new Accord is a better one than the Camry though the Camry is pretty good...they're both as exciting as a refrigerator but both competent and well screwed together but have to give the Accord the nod here for looking better and driving so much better. But I would happily own both!

    The Sandman :) B)

    2014 Hyundai Tuscon SE/2005 Mazda 3s/2008 Hyundai Accent GLS/2009 Nissan Versa SL hatch

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,781

    Sandman: Can you be specific about how the Corolla is better than the Civic? Probably there are some ways, but overall Edmunds gives the 2014 Corolla a "B," while the 2014 Civic earns an "A." In 2012, the Civic was "de-contented" in some ways, but then Honda famously reversed course and "re-contented" it for 2013. And for 2014, the Civic has been improved some more.

    In terms of the comparison between the Accord and the Camry, as you say the Accord is better looking and drives better. The Accord also has better crash ratings, faster acceleration, higher mpg, and more standard stuff. Since the Camry failed the small offset crash test, and has arguably the worst looks both inside and out, and wouldn't really put them on the same level. I'm a known Honda fan, obviously, but I try to back up what I say with facts and reasons, and I try to admit it when the Accord isn't as good as other cars. For instance, the Mazda6, and Fusion, most would say, have more exciting styling than the Accord, and the Altima has slightly higher mpg than the Accord, etc.

    Right now you can buy a Camry for less than an Accord, and so that is one pure dollars and cents advantage that Toyota has....

  • brian125brian125 New york / S.C. myrtle beachPosts: 2,751
    edited January 6

    Folks are buying the Camry on past record. I dont get it at all..The style is ugly and cheap looking. . Toyota discounts there Camry so much people looking to save a buck feel real good when buying. The truth of the mater is In the facts like ben pointed out. There is a reason why the camry is in 5th/ 6th place in alot of the reviews.. With the recent gas pedal problem and failing frontal crash test i would never put my family in that sedan right now.

    I like the legacy better than the camry.

    2013 Genesis 5.0 R-spec, 2013 Accord EXL V-6, 2012 BMW x-5, 2012 ML350

  • sandman_6472sandman_6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 2,680

    I liked the acceleration in the Corolla much better, I thought the fabric and switchgear had a more premium feel in the Corolla. With a bad spine, I also felt the seat was more supportive in the Corolla. Having owned the last generation Civic LX, I thought that Honda made both the 2012 and 2013 Civic less satisfying of a vehicle. Am sure others will debate this with me, but I drive different vehicles for a living now and have driven most makes and models and am just giving my opinion here. obviously yours will differ but that's why they make so many choices, so we can each purchase the vehicle that best fits our needs. Last month, I purchased a new vehicle and traded in my Civic because my needs had changed and although I hated to get rid of a pristine vehicle with such low mileage, it was the right decision for me. I do know that the dealer threw my vehicle on his used lot without fixing the rear bumper cover and sold it within 2 days for a good price I am sure. I tried going the Craigslist route and got a call the day after I sold it from someone wanting to buy it. The only other calls were from a selling service who wanted me to pay them to sell it for me. I think if I had held out a few more days, I could've sold it myself but then I would've had to rent a vehicle until the end of the month. I believe in timing and such and the events that led up to me purchasing my new vehicle were meant to happen so I just went with the flow here. I am happy with what I got and have not looked back. If I had wanted to spend a bit more $, I would've gotten something else but I got the best bang for my buck with my Hyundai Tuscon actually...it checked every single box!!!

    The Sandman :) B)

    2014 Hyundai Tuscon SE/2005 Mazda 3s/2008 Hyundai Accent GLS/2009 Nissan Versa SL hatch

  • suydamsuydam Posts: 981

    Looking for a new car in 2013 I drove the Accord, Camry, and Altima. Crossed off the Camry after one drive. Debated between Altima and Accord but finally chose Accord because it is a quieter CVT engine than Altima's. So far a terrific car.

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,284

    sandman_642 said "Having owned the last generation Civic LX, I thought that Honda made both the 2012 and 2013 Civic less satisfying of a vehicle"

    No. It isn't just you. Motortrend and C/D were not thrilled with the 12 and 13 Civic either. The 2014 has different suspension and steering bushings, it looks better, and C/D liked it..(for a Civic).

    If I was going to buy a compact car, I would buy a Golf GTI. It's handling is really great, has room for the kids, great fit and finish, and I can fit my fat A** in it.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345

    @brian125 said: Folks are buying the Camry on past record. I dont get it at all..The style is ugly and cheap looking. . Toyota discounts there Camry so much people looking to save a buck feel real good when buying. The truth of the mater is In the facts like ben pointed out. There is a reason why the camry is in 5th/ 6th place in alot of the reviews.. With the recent gas pedal problem and failing frontal crash test i would never put my family in that sedan right now.

    I like the legacy better than the camry.

    I haven't sat in a new one but I just don't think the Camry is that ugly from the outside. I don't get it..Of course it's subjective. Plus, and this one is big on my list of priorities, the Camry has been the quietest ride of the usual mid-sizers for many many MANY years. It also has the most compliant ride (not counting Passat, which manages compliance and handling better than any of the competitors...as does the Golf and Jetta in their class too)

    As for crash worthiness, while it looks like the Accord is the (recent) one to be in if you must crash, the Camry is probably still safer than your ride was less than 10 years ago, unless you drove a MB or similar. Imagine all those decades you drove and managed to survive them all.

    It never ceases to amaze me how quickly people's perceptions of yesterdays best sliced bread, becomes tomorrows inedible garbage. And when they do spring for the 'newest and greatest', how forgiving and accepting they are of all the electronic gremlins and inconsistencies/incompatibilities and other modern problems that simply did not exist in ANY vehicle a mere 10 years ago. And they invest hours/days..even WEEKS of their own private time dealing with these problems and trips back and forth to the dealer over and over again.. And many end up having to pay for their own rental when the stealership manages to shirk responsibility onto the victim...err...customer of all this new tech. The kicker..is that we pay them to be their guinea pigs.

    Many a corporate productive dollar is lost while water-cooler chat discusses why they can't get their new iWhatever paired up with the electronic-centre-console-systems-of-the-day that..while they may not have handled phone or Nav duties, did play music (imagine the concept) better 10 or so years ago.

    FWIW, I don't think newer Toyotas are as good as they were 10 years or so ago. FWIW2, the sound system in a Camry sounds better than the new Accord. Honda should be ashamed...they obviously figured..what the hell, customers want toys..ok..we'll give 'em toys..they won't know or appreciate good sound anyway.

    Anyway..I don't mean to prop up Toyota here and get on Honda's case..IMO they both have many skeletons in the closet they need to own. I will give Honda credit for the high quality steel they are using in their chassis now, (and for the first time a real effort to quiet the noise chamber they called an interior) but you're paying for it by the blatant cost cutting in other ways..like cheap amps/speakers lack of glovebox lights etc all while they confidently woo their customers with digital rearview mirrors et al.

  • ahightowerahightower TXPosts: 479

    I will not be upset if Accord stays in 2nd place. It appears from there to be the "smart" choice, not the "obvious" choice, know what I mean?

  • brian125brian125 New york / S.C. myrtle beachPosts: 2,751
    edited January 6

    Crky,

    Toyota Camry has been at the top or fought for it every year since the 80's. A great run along with honda. I owned 2 Camry's when the kids were young and loved them. They have been slipping the past couple of years. The Accords have had trany problems a few years back and are well known for there non quite ride, very noisy a/c heater units. I guess the good outweighs some of the bad in these vehicles.

    My 2013 Accord Exl V-6 is so much better than any accord I owned. Alot quieter than past models, very fast, good gas mileage. My only problem with this vehicle is the radio. Music sounds like its comming out of a tin can. Alpine stereo with foster speakers. Honda did a bad job of this along with the parking brake placed right in the middle of the console. Honda's top of the line model should have a upscale radio system in it and not the garbage they have in there now.

    I'm sure toyota will be back soon with another all around great camry.

    2013 Genesis 5.0 R-spec, 2013 Accord EXL V-6, 2012 BMW x-5, 2012 ML350

  • b25nutb25nut Templeton, CAPosts: 199

    After our test drive of the 2014 Accord Hybrid, my wife is now insisting that her next car have the equivalent of Honda's Lane Watch, which is the camera in the right side mirror. It is really nice and leaves no doubt it is safe to change lanes. I just hope Ford adopts it so I can steer her to the 2016 Lincoln MKC Hybrid (which I hope they make).

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,781

    Dec. 2013 and yearly midsize sales Accord 32,321; 366,678 Camry 29,964; 408,484
    Altima 24,816; 320,723 Fusion 24,408 ; 295,280 Malibu 15,493 ; 200,594 Sonata 14,479; 203,648 Optima 9,474; 155,893 Passat 9,254 ; 109,652
    200 5,652 ; 122,480
    Avenger 4,950 ; 93,842 Mazda6 4,365; 33,756

  • sandman_6472sandman_6472 Coral Springs, FLPosts: 2,680

    I know with my '06 Civic, I swapped out the speakers very early on while trying to improve the sound quality. After that, and I went with very good Boston Scientific ones, I added tweeters which didn't come on the LX model. Still not satisfied, I asked my stereo guy what is the next step here. He said either swap out the head unit or get an amp. Since I didn't want to mess with the dash, I wanted to keep the oem head unit, I added an amp, MXR or something like that and it did the trick. Amazing sound and power so I was a happy camper for years to follow. Last month, I decided to have the amp removed to possibly use in my new vehicle. We discussed also taking the speakers but they were the wrong size and the cost was just too much so I left them in the vehicle when traded. The amp was installed in my Tuscon and it does help with the power and loudness but...the sound quality is just not what I am used to. The new store is supposed to be getting a new line of primo speakers in sometime this month that the owner/installer thinks would be just perfect for what I want to achieve. So, right now, I am still deciding my next move here. He said it won't be cheap and if I wanted to spend less then replacing the head unit might be the way to go but I like that it has the bluetooth integration and I hate to screw up my factory warranty. So the logical option here is to go in and listen to the speakers I could purchase and go from there. I have a price point in my mind that I won't go above so I will have to hear the quality of sound and decide after that. If the quality is that good, I might just have to expand the budget a bit to get exactly what I want...I want to be happy hear as I always have the music going. But there is a price point that I will not go above here so first, I need to see what is available. Figure I'll go in at months end and see...he will need the vehicle for most of the day again so I have to get there early and get driven home and then picked up later in the day. This will also mean a missed day of work so all must be planned out according to my schedule as he said he's pretty flexible on this. Time will tell here but one thing I know...I need to improve the sound quality as I have the power part of the equation solved. now, onto the sound quality!

    The Sandman :) B)

    2014 Hyundai Tuscon SE/2005 Mazda 3s/2008 Hyundai Accent GLS/2009 Nissan Versa SL hatch

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,730

    @brian125, I wonder if the Accord uses the same speakers for audio and active noise control?

  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699

    @b25nut said: After our test drive of the 2014 Accord Hybrid, my wife is now insisting that her next car have the equivalent of Honda's Lane Watch, which is the camera in the right side mirror. It is really nice and leaves no doubt it is safe to change lanes. I just hope Ford adopts it so I can steer her to the 2016 Lincoln MKC Hybrid (which I hope they make).

    Ford already offers BLIS which gives you an orange light in the side mirror when traffic is present. A camera seems like overkill and unnecessary.

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345

    @akirby said: Ford already offers BLIS which gives you an orange light in the side mirror when traffic is present. A camera seems like overkill and unnecessary.

    Not sure how you can suggest that a light is better than a camera. One gives you perspective, the other.. none at all..plus so many other variables..The light could be misconstrued as a sun reflection, or a piece of ice or snow or salt spray could be right where that light is etc etc..

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,043

    I could see a problem with this feature as well. If you are relying solely on the camera, then you aren't looking at the rear view mirror, and you may change lanes at the same time as the car behind you and you'll never see them in time. I don't think this device promotes 360 awareness, in the same way that you can easily still run over someone or something while glued to a rear-view camera. (such as a pedestrian walking across the back of your car). Trying walking down the street while holding a camera to your eye, to give you an exaggerated example of what I mean.

    @crkyolfrt said: Not sure how you can suggest that a light is better than a camera. One gives you perspective, the other.. none at all..plus so many other variables..The light could be misconstrued as a sun reflection, or a piece of ice or snow or salt spray could be right where that light is etc etc..

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  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345

    @MrShift@Edmunds said: I could see a problem with this feature as well. If you are relying solely on the camera, then you aren't looking at the rear view mirror, and you may change lanes at the same time as the car behind you and you'll never see them in time. I don't think this device promotes 360 awareness, in the same way that you can easily still run over someone or something while glued to a rear-view camera. (such as a pedestrian walking across the back of your car). Trying walking down the street while holding a camera to your eye, to give you an exaggerated example of what I mean.

    I think it shows more than one lane, no? Plus I think there are audible nannies that go with it.. Anyway, as you know, I'm not a big fan of many of these nannies..too much computer processing at work, and we all know how a computer can crash on ya at the worst time. But I do like the idea of a backup camera that can show (and warn) of a little kid or pet directly behind you.

    And aside from computer crashes..there is of course the potential complacency issues.

  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699

    You have to look at and interpret what you see in the camera while with the light (it's a pencil eraser sized dot that doesn't get confused with ice or a reflection) it's a simple quick glance or you see it with your peripheral vision.

  • suydamsuydam Posts: 981

    I really love the camera and found it particularly helpful on busy freeways. You don't stop using the rear view mirror altogether by the way. I'm sure more vehicles will start adopting it.

  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699

    It's still faster and easier to check for an orange light than it is to focus on a small camera picture. Cameras are great for backing up but it doesn't make a lot of sense for blind spot detection where all you need is a go/no go indication.

  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,669

    @akirby said: It's still faster and easier to check for an orange light than it is to focus on a small camera picture. Cameras are great for backing up but it doesn't make a lot of sense for blind spot detection where all you need is a go/no go indication.

    I just look in the mirror and turn my head...

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,284

    Dreadful morning.

    1) It was 4 degrees this morning in a city that is not used to it. (first time in 20 years that it was this low). I noticed the electronics in the car were very slow to respond. Transmission was slow to shift until warm up, and the EPS stuck a little (known Optima EPS issue).

    2) My window washer fluid would not spray. It is frozen in the lines right at the nozzles. They do cold weather testing on these cars...don't they??? 3) I found a couple big scrapes in the paint where I tried to scrape ice off the car. Nice job bone head. I am ordering an electric buffer on E-Bay right now.

    4) Had a vet appointment for the new family cat. He went nuts in the carrier, escaped from it; then climbed all over me with his claws while I was driving. For 20 miles. On the highway with no shoulder-(converted to an HOV lane during rush hour(s). Awful.

    5) Still have to go back and pick up the cat during evening rush. This time I am bringing a bigger carrier so he can't get out and claw me to death while driving.

    Chris Skalski: Network Engineer 2012 Kia Optima EX

  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,699

    What could the mfr do to prevent washer nozzles from freezing in 4 degree weather? I don't get it.

  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 1,986
    edited January 7

    Well, some cars have heated washer nozzles. With all the geegaws H-K loads up their vehicles with, many of which seem rather useless, I would have thought this might actually be a useful addition.

    In truth, if you had to scrape ice off the car, the washers probably have ice on the outside of them too and that may be what is keeping them from working properly. If it was filled it with proper washer fluid, that doesn't freeze until -35 or so, so it's unlikely that it is what is frozen. However, some places use a summer "bug wash" fluid that does freeze. Useless stuff.

    Too bad about the cat. I have several, and they all hate going to the vet and being put in carriers. I have one cat in particular who is very adept at breaking out of the carriers. He figured out how to defeat the zipper that closes the soft-sided carrier, and also somehow gets the door open on one of my hard shell carriers. I now put him in a dog-sized carrier which seems to be too much for him. However, in the past when he escaped while in the car he did a number on the leather upholstery with his claws as he was climbing out of the carrier. No serious damage but you could see it if you knew where to look. I grew up with cats and most of them hated the car.

    2011 Buick Regal Turbo, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345

    @cski said: Dreadful morning.

    Sorry to hear of your tough start today..but hey..better the kitty claw you than your interior, lol

    As for the freezing nozzles...this isn't likely to be a design defect. I find this happens if I haven't squirted recently. The sun evaporates the alcohol that is nearest the exit. The one that freezes more often I find is my rear hatch washer cuz it gets used even less. I have the habit now to squirt at least once a week. Since they are always black, they attract even more heat. The cure is to do a squirt more often to bring fresher fluid up to the nozzles. Now if you have had the same fluid in there all summer, consider syphoning out and using next summer and putting new stuff in that will have more alcohol in it. It also evaporates through that little vent hole in the fill cap.

    You might get lucky and the freeze may be right at the nozzle and you can warm it enough between your fingers if it protrudes enough. Or get a cup of hot water..

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,043

    @suydam said: I really love the camera and found it particularly helpful on busy freeways. You don't stop using the rear view mirror altogether by the way. I'm sure more vehicles will start adopting it.

    I can't help thinking that camera is an overkill solution---like cutting butter with a chainsaw. it DOES do the job, but.......:)

    MODERATOR --Need help with anything? Click on my name!

  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,447

    @akirby said: It's still faster and easier to check for an orange light than it is to focus on a small camera picture. Cameras are great for backing up but it doesn't make a lot of sense for blind spot detection where all you need is a go/no go indication.

    Actually the picture is quite large and takes no longer to focus on and interpret than looking in the rear view mirror on turning around. The field of vision is extremely wide and the camera is very good in low light conditions making vehicles very easy to see that may only look like shadows otherwise.

    An excellent tool that adds to (but does not replace) your other mirrors etc.

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