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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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Comments

  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "Fact is that Kia's are just about the same as Lexus's. If you dispute this simply study the data."

    What comes to mind here are lies, damn lies and statistics. If you believe the data shows Kia is on par with Lexus with regard Lexus' overall track record, I don't know what to say.

    There is not a manufacturer on the face of this planet who can claim they have had a perfect track record. Buying a car is a crap shoot. You can end up with a lemon from the worlds best manufacturer. Conversly you can end up with a stellar experience from the world worst manufacturer.

    Having said that, I would rather take my chances with some, than with others.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,343
    One manufacturer could have 10 problems all in one car, thereby losing a customer for life, while another could have 1 problem in 10 vehicles, thereby simply annoying but not losing 10 customers.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Remember we're talking about the midsize sedans, please. We're going off-topic a lot in the past few pages and that always gets us into trouble.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    that this generations Accord has had hundreds of thousands of center stack cluster failures (stereo units only).
    know of one that did exactly this BUT Honda replaced it even though the car was well out of any warranties. However, the whole concept that any manufactuer of anything is somehow exempt from problems is ridiculous, how they handle it once it does happen is something else.
    If I remember correctly, the previously mentioned Nissan engine problem, had Nissan suspending 4 cylinder model sales (at the dealer level) as well as discontinuing production until that problem was solved. That, in my mind, is being proactive, and a good example of a responsive mfgr..
  • neteng101neteng101 Posts: 176
    The differences in SE-V6 and EX-V6 are as night and day as LX 4-cyl and EX-L 4-cyl, and their $4,000 difference in MSRP reflects that. It isn't just minor stuff. it's leather, heated seats, auto climate control, black plastic trim vs. wood/alumininum trim, etc...

    Can't compare an SE-V6 to an LX 4-cyl though... SE 4-cyl is the correct comparison. LX 4-cyl has steelies. About the only thing in the EX-V6 to me that actually is nice to have would be the XM sat radio.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    However, the whole concept that any manufactuer of anything is somehow exempt from problems is ridiculous, how they handle it once it does happen is something else.

    Truer words were never written, Captain2.
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    either way, the driving dynamics and styling of the nissans are more appealing to me than the other midsized sedans in this class. not that they are bad cars - im sure they are all fantastic! just not for me...

    -thene

    I feel the same exact way about our Fusion. I would substitute Fusions for Nissans in your sentence. :)
    Boz
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Fair enough (we're really nit-picking). I was thinking about the interior trim. All black plastic in the SE V6 and LX 4-cyl. The SE 4-cyl gives you upgraded trim.
  • prosource1prosource1 Posts: 234
    What comes to mind here are lies, damn lies and statistics.'

    We have a conspiracy theorist here and I am talking about initial quality, which is the first 90 days of ownership. Kia has about 125 problems per 100 vehicle. This is from surveys. Lexus has a little under 100. So we are talking about a very small percentage of problems the owners of Lexus' and Kia's are experiencing in the first 90 days of ownership.
    One of our clients bought a Lexus IS250awd and had two problems in the first 90 days. Lexus came and picked up the car and dropped it back off. They also gave her a choice of a gift on both occasions. She was begged not to report the problems on the survey. She didn't. She was very happy still. You believe what you want.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Honda would never allow engine problems like Nissan did.

    nissan didn't "allow" the problem. It showed up, and was quickly corrected. It can and does happen to every automobile manufacture.
    They are in different leagues reliability and quality control wise

    no they aren't. I have a 9 yr old nissan in my driveway with 145k miles on it that has not had 1 repair made to it. doesn't get any better than 0

    Maintenance means little to nothing to a well built reliable and dependable car

    it has everything to do with it. My job involves visiting hundreds of repair shops, and meeting upwards of a thousand mechanics a year. I can quite confidently tell you that the majority of cars being fixed in garages are being fixed because they weren't properly maintained. and yes, I see plenty of hondas, and toyotas; along with every other make of car. The overwhelming number of engines replacements are done because the engine sludged up from lack of proper oil changes. the overwhelming number of radiator/head gasket repairs are made because the cooling system was never flushed. the vast majority of transmissions needing replaced/rebuilt are because they were never flushed. It is absolutely astonishing how people treat their cars. I couldn't count the number of times I've seen a radiator flushed and the water comes out brown with tiny peices of corrosion in it, or the number of times I've seen engines so sludged up that oil couldn't even be poured in because it couldn't drain down. If you in any way doubt this, stop changing your oil and come back in 15,000 miles and let me know how your car is doing.

    oh, and I never said much about how you drive it. cars shouldn't be any less reliable if they're driven hard.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    have serious doubts about the Big 3. Heck, they might not even exist in 4 years when your tranny fails in that Ford, GM, or Chrysler product

    they arn't going anywhere. keep in mind, ford still sells about 100k more vehicles a month than honda. at least in the US. ;)
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Consumers are seriously misled if they believe that a car manufacturer is bulletproof and their models are free from defect in engineering or design. Even the best manufacturers deal with recalls as they have to deal with part makers they outsource to. They also sometimes make mistakes in the engineering process.

    Don't know about Pilots etc, all I can tell about is my Accord. My V6 Accord (03) did have a recall on the transmission. The recall fix obviously worked, because I haven't been seeing much about failing transmissions in 03 V6 Accords. I am at 47k miles and my tranny is working great. I have also heard about the radio displays going out on 03 Accords. I recently received a notice from Honda that the warranty has been extended to 7 years/100k miles for the radio displays. They will also reimburse anyone who has paid for the display before the warranty extension. My display has not gone out, but it is nice to know Honda is standing behind the car if it does. :D How many car companies would do this?
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    How many car companies would do this?

    not enough
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    My display has not gone out, but it is nice to know Honda is standing behind the car if it does. How many car companies would do this?

    In a perfect world, they all would. It's too bad we live in an imperfect world, one where far too many manufacturers respond with "Tough luck buddy. Better luck next time."
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    The overwhelming number of engines replacements are done because the engine sludged up from lack of proper oil changes.

    This reminds me of one neighbor's car. He never changed the oil, only added some when it got low. It lasted a few years, but it finally burned up. When he took the valve cover off, I could see the word Ford from the valve cover imprinted on the sludge packed in there.

    Like the mechanic says, "pay me a little now, or a lot later".
  • benderofbowsbenderofbows Posts: 544
    "cars shouldn't be any less reliable if they're driven hard."

    Really? That's pretty comforting.

    I drive my cars pretty hard, but not what one might consider abuse. I never drop the clutch, always start cleanly then throttle it. I don't powershift. I usually shift up at 3k RPMs, sometimes 4, less often 5, and rarely redline, but I'm mostly into the throttle pretty good regardless of RPM.

    I often wonder if driving less enthusiastically would have a dramatic increase in the longevity of the vehicle. But that wouldn't be any fun! Besides, I can't be too bad as I still see EPA mileage, and at over 5,200 miles the Accord's "maintenance minder" is still showing 30% oil life left (apparently calculated based on accumulated engine revs). I always do the maintenance, full synthetic etc.

    What's everyone think? Do you typically drive your midsize sedan more like a sports sedan? If so, do you think it will affect long-term reliabilty?
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    as long as your driving hard, and not abusing. Its like with a clutch, droping it isn't nearly as bad as driving with it half in, half out. That what kills them the fastest. Not saying its good to rev the engine to 5ooo rpm and then pop it, but I'd consider that abusive too. I think you might see a little more longevity (my speculation) if you were easier on it, but only because hard driving will tend to make a weak part give out. As where with easier driving, it might last a little longer.

    Oil is kind of funny, and very condition dependant. newer cars run much cleaner than cars of 10yrs ago. Couple that with much improved oil (the addatives) and it tends to stay cleaner a lot longer. someone driving primarily highway miles for moderate distances could very well go 5,6 or more thousand miles without an oil change.

    On the flip side, someone driving short distance, stop and go rush hour traffic would be making a huge mistake to change their oil any less than 3k.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,738
    Plus, honestly, what's the cost of an oil change? $20? $30? It's not like one extra change or two per year is going to blow your bank account or anything.

    And it gives you better mileage and less wear as well, since there's less sludge and gunk circulating. Of course, I also put some oil stabilizer in as well, since the summers out here in CA/NV/etc are brutal and sap viscosity like a vacuum cleaner. Doubly so if it's an older car.

    And, yeah - even with a new car, 3K and the oil is dirty and full of gunk. Goes in almost clear and comes out the color of mud. Using that oil life sensor and going 5-6K between changes is what gets you the sludge. Trust your brain and not the gadget I say.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    And, yeah - even with a new car, 3K and the oil is dirty and full of gunk. Goes in almost clear and comes out the color of mud. Using that oil life sensor and going 5-6K between changes is what gets you the sludge.

    depends a lot on the driving too. For instance, I drive one of my cars 25 miles to work on 4 lane road with no lights or stop signs. the engine has plenty of time to reach proper operating temp, and I don't have any of the slow speed stop and go traffic. At 3k, the oil looks like it just came out of the bottle.

    Now my wife on the other hand, drives 7 or 8 miles to and from work through about a dozen traffic lights in stop and go driving. the oil in that car starts to get black at about 2500 miles.

    But like you said, its $30 plus they vaccum and wash your windows. when in doubt, just change it.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    Dodge never offered to ante up for fixing my early death faulty tranny in my Dodge.

    If it was out of warranty then they had no reason to. Honda's tranny failures were of a different nature and happened early on in the vehicles life in a lot of cases which prompted them to extend the warranty. That's why your Honda transmission was replaced.

    Do you really think that if the tranny goes out on a Honda vehicle which is out of warranty, standard or extended, they'll replace the tranny for free? If yes, then head on over here because I have a lot of nice bridges for sale.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    Not talking about IQS. Talking about overall customer experience. Lexus is about as bullet proof as they come over the life of car. In my opinion, that is far from the case with Kia vehicles. Most vehicles these days have a high IQS with the first 90 days of ownership. There are exceptions to the rule of course, but the fringe cases are not the rule.

    Everybody will believe what they want and can have some statistic to support their assertion.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Do you really think that if the tranny goes out on a Honda vehicle which is out of warranty, standard or extended, they'll replace the tranny for free?

    Yes, it has happened many times. If you have proof that maintenance was done, and it is an obvious defect, Honda will work with you. Honda customers know what "good will" repair means. That's how they keep customers coming back.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Actually, I tend to believe you. never had to take the civic in for anything, but after they way they handled the odometer thing, deffinitly impressed me.

    for those who don't know, honda cars were accused of misreading milage. and, even though the varations in actual mileage vs. odometer milage were less than the margin of error set by the government, honda willingly, without being forced, extened all waranties and made restitutions to people who leased and had to pay milage charges.
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,221
    honda willingly, without being forced, extened all waranties and made restitutions to people who leased and had to pay milage charges.

    They were sued. I think they had a pretty good reason to give the money back don't you?

    Why must everyone spin Honda's actions into being "for the greater good"? They are a company in business to make money, not save the world. :sick:
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    yes, they were sued, but there was no indication they would loose. the amounts their odometers were off were well within what the government allowed. Personally, I don't see how they could have lost. basically, the gvt says you can be off +/- 1 mile per 100 and the honda odo's were off +/- .5 miles per 100. those arn't exact numbers, but thats how it shook out. But honda decided they would voluntarily make restitution.

    FYI, Nissan was sued for the same thing, and has chosen to fight it in court.

    and read some of my posts. though I have nothing against honda, I am by no means a honda homer. I prefer nissan myself, but don't mind giving honda props where its due.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Why must everyone spin Honda's actions into being "for the greater good"? They are a company in business to make money, not save the world.

    You don't seem to understand. :confuse: Honda sees "Good Will" repairs as an investment, in Repeat Customers. When you loose customers, you loose sales down the road. You can tell which companies didn't see it as an investment 10 years ago. The same ones who are loosing money now.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    Honda may have also made a business decision that it was less expensive to fix, whether needed or not, than to get tied up in lengthy litigation.

    Out of court settlements are made all the time, particularly dubious claims for injuries resulting from car accidents. If an insurance company can "buy out" of a claim for $2,000 rather than spend a minimum of $1500 fighting a case they could lose, they'll 'buy out" most every time.
  • neteng101neteng101 Posts: 176
    Ford only knows how to sell trucks and Toyota's ruining their party slowly - they can't sell midsized sedans or even cars to equal Toyota/Honda or even come anywhere close. :P

    I'm not in the market for a truck, and if I was, I'd get a Tundra. Still amazed at how silent and smooth my Honda Accord V6 runs - effortless power. :shades:
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Ford only knows how to sell trucks and Toyota's ruining their party slowly

    yes, but trucks out sell cars, have since the 90's. and toyota could one day seriously cut into them, but they have a loooooong way to go. The new tundra is nice, but it doesn't even come close to what a F-350 can do. there is a huge gap between what a ford truck and a toyota truck can do.

    ford could very easily survive as a truck company. hell, they practicly are now.

    and both toyota and nissan scrubbed their plans for Heavy duty/super duty versions of the tundra and titan.
  • elroy5elroy5 Posts: 3,741
    Do you actually think Ford can survive on only heavy duty trucks. Not a chance.
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