Midsize Sedans 2.0

andres3

Yes, some manufacturers skimp on tires, some don't.

urnews

I certainly won't be spending $800+ on tires when it comes time to replace them, though.

+1

andres3

Are there any good forums to discuss quality tires that are a good bang for the buck?

Other than America's tire's website that includes user reviews?

backy

The fact that C/D's long-term Sonata tester required $0 in non-scheduled maintenance in 40k miles obviously impressed C/D's editors. I'm not sure how saying a car had zero non-scheduled maintenance or repair costs is misleading. It's possible for tires, brakes, and other components to need replacement within 40k miles. Also, most other bumper-to-bumper warranties expire after 36k miles, so it's possible to have non-warranty maintenance costs after that (except not on the Sonata of course, not until 5 years or 60k miles).

kdshapiro

"I'm not sure how saying a car had zero non-scheduled maintenance or repair costs is misleading."

I know a lot of owners who have $0 in non-scheduled maintenance the three or four years up to 50,000 miles. To me it is a big so-what. With any warranty there shouldn't be any dollars associated with non-scheduled maintenance. What is more interesting are the number of warranty repair visits a car requires. (That would be the same number as needing a warranty repair and not bringing the car in for whatever reason) Also interesting is the projected amount spent on dealer scheduled maintenance.

elroy5

I don't want to spend my time bringing a car to the dealer, even if it is under warranty. I would rather not bring it to the dealer at all, for anything. Time is money. Doing your own maintenance can do wonders for the "true cost to own" equation. :shades:

backy

That's a good point. C/D has long-term wrapups on two other mid-sized family cars on their web site (http://www.caranddriver.com/features/13266/long-term-tests.html?al=131): 2002 Camry SE V6 and 2003 Mazda6s. Here's the maintenance story for them and the Sonata (from the September 2007 C/D issue):

2003 Mazda6s
Scheduled services: 5
Unscheduled services: 0
Repair cost: $0
Total maintenance cost: $443

2002 Camry SE V6:
Scheduled services: 5
Unscheduled services: 0
Repair cost: $0
Total maintenance cost: $750

2006 Sonata LX:
Scheduled services: 5
Unscheduled services: 0
Repair cost: $0
Total maintenance cost: $608

So the Sonata compares very well to two of Japan's best mid-sized cars over 40k miles in terms of number of warranty visits and scheduled maintenance costs (note also the Sonata's costs are in 2006-2007 dollars).

kdshapiro

That's interesting. The repair cost mirrors my own regarding cars owned during the first three to four years, they all are reliable. However, all of my Nissans had a number of unscheduled warranty visits, that were more than annoyance factors. My Jeep had one vist at the end to fix a window regulator. BMW had a couple of unscheduled visits, one to replace an alloy wheel under warranty damaged at the car wash (that's called customer service) and the other to tighten the antenna connection (oh yeah the third for the alarm installation). One of my current cars had 0 visits so far, the other had a minor warranty item dealing with the backseat release taken care of during an oil change.

Bottom line, all cars except my Nissans faired well, which is why I stay away from Nissan today.

jd10013

They all do, depending on what you buy. though my 2.5 altima came with what I'd call cheap tires, I don't believe those $80-90 conti's are on the 3.5SE, or a maxima. But it does irritate me, because that tire has a speed rating of "s", which means the limiter is probably set to 110 or 114 mph.

bhmr59

Elmo, both my brother's '07 Sonata SE AND my '05 Sonata GLS Special Value, are owned by our 2 man business.

I don't technically own either car, I basically make financial decisions for our business. He is the one who is still excited about the car he has driven since February.

We do generally keep our cars for ten years, so the depreciation difference, if any, is minimal. "My" last generation Sonata has been great since "we" bought it in 4/05 and I look forward to many more years of reliable service from it, backed by the 5/60, 10/100 warranty.

Both are 6 cyl; as backy said, all '07 Sonata SE's are 6 cyl.

The only sure thing is that you paid $25K (not sure if that was OTD or just for the car before dealer fees + TTL). Our OTD for the '07 Sonata SE was $18,189 (with sales tax @ 6%)-- or at least $7K less than you paid for your Honda Accord SE.

Does your Honda have ABS, ESC, Traction Control, Electronic Brake Distribution and front & rear head air bags? I'm sure there are other differences in equipment. Remember, we are talking about '07, or earlier, cars. Early this year, I did not care about what Honda may offer for '08.

thegraduate

But it does irritate me, because that tire has a speed rating of "s", which means the limiter is probably set to 110 or 114 mph.

Yeah, and we all know how often 110 MPH just isn't enough!

andres3

Does your Honda have ABS, ESC, Traction Control, Electronic Brake Distribution and front & rear head air bags? I'm sure there are other differences in equipment. Remember, we are talking about '07, or earlier, cars. Early this year, I did not care about what Honda may offer for '08.

My '03 Accord LX V6 had ABS, Traction Control (TCS), Electronic Brake Distribution, and front curtain air bags. It also had 240HP with 30 highway miles per gallon, something the Sonata has struggled to duplicate either.

elroy5

Does your Honda have ABS, ESC, Traction Control, Electronic Brake Distribution and front & rear head air bags?

My 03 EX V6 Accord has side and side curtain airbags, traction control, and a 5 star crash rating (something the 03 Sonata did not have).
It took 4 years for Hyundai to catch up, and with the 08 model the Sonata will be left in the dust again. You can fool yourself into believing the Sonata is in the same league as the Accord, but like many other midsize cars, it's a generation behind.

bhmr59

Is your Accord EX the same as the Accord SE? Is it a higher or lower trim line? Did it have ESC?

I thought the EX-V6 was the top Accord...the SE Sonata is the mid-level Sonata.

jd10013

I don't plan on driving much at that speed, but the speedometer goes up to 160. Now, at 175 HP it won't go that fast, but sure would be fun to find out where the top speed actually is. :surprise:

m1miata

You got a car listed as $21,445 for 16,651 = Wow! Good price. Not a bad deal, even if the car is 80 to 85% compared to the others. Not a bad deal. They are selling about half their cars to rental fleet and now giving away the rest. This doesn't bode well for the future. There is no way I can argue though that if you keep the car for a long time, the deal was not a good one. You made a deal! As for performance, it all depends on how you drive a car. Most people will see little difference between most of the makes on the road.
Loren

zzzoom6

I don't know if I'd say that the Sonata is a generation behind the Accord...I drove the Sonata over a few days and came away much more impressed with it than I thought I would. It was quiet, smooth, had plenty of power, and ergonomic (besides the driver seat which was cutting circulation off in my right hamstring unless I tipped the front seat so far forward I was sliding out). And I have seen the pics of the redone center stack in the Sonata and it is much much better than before.

I did like the Accord better overall in the interior design and having a slightly firmer suspension (I happen to prefer this) while having a lot less body lean in corners. But it'd be hard for me to pay 4 or 5k more for the accord when the Sonata would be perfectly acceptable especially when considering Consumer Reports and JD Powers rate most of these midsize cars almost identically (on a percentage basis) for reliability over a five year period.

Once again, the Accord lovers in this forum want to make a mountain out of a mole hill and say that the Accord is in a "different league" or that we "fool ourselves" into thinking another car is comparable when really the differences are not that significant. Just a snobbish attitude if you ask me...they are both good cars and are worthy of consideration in this category.

andres3

And the LX V6 was Accord's midline model..... at least for V6's.... comparable to the SE on either the Accord or Sonata now.

m1miata

A Honda SE V6 has stability control, traction control, electronic brake force, all those air bags, a 6 CD changer, and all that jazz. The difference is in the car. The Honda is faster, and handles better, and has better steering feedback / feel. The interior is of better quality. Don't know about Edmund's resale values as quoted here are for, but overall, going by Kelly Book, Honda Accord has always been near the top for resale value. Sonata is going to have to be so much lower. You can not run half your sale via fleet and run huge discounts without running the resale values down -- sorry but that's life.

I fully understand how the Sonata can work as a cost saving car, if bought and held for a decade. From an economics point of view, in this case scenario, fine - good enough choice. And if you love or really like some element of Sonata or Hyundai over the rest, then fine too, to each his own, and it is right for you. Ultimately what is right for the person opening up the wallet, is the correct car for that individual.
Everyone has different priorities.
Loren

thegraduate

According to Car and Driver, the Altima is governed to 112 MPH (CVT).

For comparison:

Chrysler Sebring Touring
117 MPH (173hp, 4-sp Auto)

Honda Accord SE
130 MPH (166 hp, 5-sp Auto)

Kia Optima EX
125 MPH** (161 hp, 5-sp Auto)

Saturn Aura XE
106 MPH (224 hp, 4-sp Auto)

Toyota Camry LE
126 MPH (158 hp, 5-sp Auto)

**All cars are governed to their speeds electronically except for the Kia Optima, which is incapable of going faster (drag limited).

m1miata

Accord SE comes with those Michelin tires which cost $210 or so at Costco, unless they are running that $60 off, or whatever it is at the time. This makes the tires say perhaps $250 retail each = ouch! Come the time, if I still own the car, I am thinking Kumho tires. Some of those are rated excellent for performance, with I am sure less tread life. But the cost, of the better Kumho tires for the car is around half that of the Michelin, as per TireRack research. Yokohamas may be good too. Of course the Michelin tires could last 50K miles, if I slowed for corners. They put the tire pressure at 32 after the oil change. I am thinking 34 may be best. A little scuffing on those edges, do I see!

As for speed, was it 2007 model of the Sonata which did not have any speed limiter? I think they do now for 2008. I don't have any desire to go up to 130 MPH, and if I did, I am thinking Mercedes tank, or maybe a larger BMW??? A wreck at speeds over 100 can not be a good thing.
Loren

jd10013

I'm pretty sure every new car out there has a limiter now. they set it according to the speed rating of the tires. but a quick reprogram of the ecm can fix that. :P

jd10013

I know where its governed at, I'd like to see what its capable of. as I said, speedometer goes to 160, but no way a 175hp I4 will reach that. I'm guessing 130-140. but with the damn speed limiter I'll probably never get to find out.

bhmr59

The MSRP was $22,080 including destination. The $16,651 also incuded destination.

joe97

It also had 240HP with 30 highway miles per gallon, something the Sonata has struggled to duplicate either.

It is very much possible.

EPA 08 ratings:

2007 Sonata V6: 18/27
2007 Accord V6: 18/26

Call it a tie and move on.

joe97

You can fool yourself into believing the Sonata is in the same league as the Accord, but like many other midsize cars, it's a generation behind.

Funny how a lot of people wouldn't necessarily agree with you. Let me say this, the Accord is great, but to say the Sonata (and many other midsize sedans) are a generation behind, that's about an igorant view as you can get. I'd love to hear the reasoning and details why the Sonata (and most other midsize sedans) are one generation behind the Accord.

pat

Are there any good forums to discuss quality tires that are a good bang for the buck?

Tires, tires, tires.

robbieg

If that is what Sonatas are selling for they are priced right. Most buyers are willing to pay a premium for a Honda or a Toyota. They will not pay a premium for a Chevy or Hyundai. Basically, a Hyundai, and a Chevy for that matter, has to be priced quite a bit cheaper than a Honda. Haven't driven a Sonota, although I did sit in one (a rental), terrible seat, but I drove a Santa Fe which was nice. The dealer said I can have whatever Santa Fe I wanted at invoice. Sounds like the Sonatas are discounted more.

I had an uncle shop for an elantra a few years ago and the dealer would deal at all. That turned him off real quick.

lilengineerboy

Why would you say that? Now your comapring aftermarket on the accord to stock on other cars. its like saying my car is faster than yours after I installed a grand worth of aftermarket parts and you kept yours stock. Is it maybe, just a tiny tiny bit possible the brakes on another car are better than the accord?

Sorry, out of town for the weekend. As far as the comparison with the Accord, I said it needed better tires. Then I did an example of how tires and brakes are related, based on my experience with a Ford Contour.

I concur that the brakes on other cars can be stronger, although the Accord brakes seem like they are a bit "touchy."

lilengineerboy

Accord SE comes with those Michelin tires which cost $210 or so at Costco, unless they are running that $60 off, or whatever it is at the time. This makes the tires say perhaps $250 retail each = ouch! Come the time, if I still own the car, I am thinking Kumho tires. Some of those are rated excellent for performance, with I am sure less tread life. But the cost, of the better Kumho tires for the car is around half that of the Michelin, as per TireRack research. Yokohamas may be good too. Of course the Michelin tires could last 50K miles, if I slowed for corners. They put the tire pressure at 32 after the oil change. I am thinking 34 may be best. A little scuffing on those edges, do I see!

I don't like to skimp on tires, but I have found a number of anomalies where you don't always get what you pay for. I have been very happy with the Kumhos on the old Accord (more so than the Bridgestones on the new one). I agree with the idea of bumping inflation pressure a lil bit to get some handling out though.
It seems like the thread was about crummy tires as opposed to cheap ones. Whats worse is the Accord has a weird 16" size making it difficult to find upgraded tires.

urnews

You can fool yourself into believing the Sonata is in the same league as the Accord, but like many other midsize cars, it's a generation behind.

Our 2007 SEL AWD Fusion is definitely not "a generation behind" any Accord, even the 2008 when it debuts. The Accord is, no doubt, a fine mid-size automobile but its relationship to the rest of the field is more a matter of splitting hairs.

For example, our Fusion has all-wheel drive, something not even offered on an Accord at any price.

kdshapiro

While AWD is nice, I'm not sure it would be an option that would still have me say the Fusion is as polished as the Accord. IMO, hairs are not being split, but to each their own.

colloquor

For those who feel, and rightly so the majority of the time, that Hyundai resale values are dismal, consider this example. My neighbor bought a 2006 Hyundai Elantra GLS Automatic 4-door sedan (Yes, I know this forum is for Midesize sedans, but thought this would be informative for the readers) for his wife in February 2006, and paid $13,500, including sales tax (6.5%), title, and license/registration. The original sticker MSRP was $15,220, so he got a very decent deal on the purchase.


Although his wife initially loved the car, she realized some time later that she wanted something a bit larger for carrying all of her friends to luncheons, etc. During its tenure in their family, she had absolutely no problems with it, it was in perfect "as new" condition, and it had only 9,400 miles on the odometer. To make a long story short, he just sold it (privately) for her through a listing in the local newspaper's classifieds - the selling price: $12,500. A year and a half of ownership for $1,000 - not bad in my opinion. Of course, it helped that the buyer was looking for a pristine 2006, and not the current generation.

elroy5

Let me say this, the Accord is great, but to say the Sonata (and many other midsize sedans) are a generation behind, that's about an igorant view as you can get. I'd love to hear the reasoning and details why the Sonata (and most other midsize sedans) are one generation behind the Accord.


Ok, I'll give it to you the way I see it (you may see things differently). Many other midsize cars were introduced at least 3 years after the Accord. Yet the Accord wins MOST comparison tests (CR, C&D, among others) competing against these recently redesigned cars. The current Accord has been around since 03. The Sonata 06, Fusion 06, Camry 07, Altima 07, Aura 07. The Altima is the only car that is close, and it took Nissan 4 years to do it. And who's to say the next generation of these other cars will be able to best the current Accord. Well, that's my opinion (of course opinions are like mileage, and will vary widely). You can call it ignorant if you like, but that's my reasoning.:P

benderofbows

There are only a couple of things from competing cars that I wish I had in my Accord.

First, I wish my Accord had the hatchback from the Mazda6.

Second, the 6-speed manual from the Altima (my 4-cylinder Accord is but a 5-speed manual).

Third, an auxiliary hookup for the stereo (iPod, etc.) I think several competitors have this.

prosource1

'The dealer said I can have whatever Santa Fe I wanted at invoice. '

I bought my Pilot for $29k and the msrp on it was $35,600. That is $3500 below invoice. Honda gives dealers cash to move vehicles even though incentives aren't advertised. Hyundai's aren't the only vehicles sold at invoice or below.

mayberryguy

According to Car and Driver, the Altima is governed to 112 MPH (CVT).

For comparison:

Chrysler Sebring Touring
117 MPH (173hp, 4-sp Auto)

Honda Accord SE
130 MPH (166 hp, 5-sp Auto)

Kia Optima EX
125 MPH** (161 hp, 5-sp Auto)

Saturn Aura XE
106 MPH (224 hp, 4-sp Auto)

Toyota Camry LE
126 MPH (158 hp, 5-sp Auto)

**All cars are governed to their speeds electronically except for the Kia Optima, which is incapable of going faster (drag limited).

BMW 335i
150 MPH (300 hp, 6 speed man.) Electronically Limited....

noisier at top speed than a Sonata....darn it.

zzzoom6

There has been some rumors flying around the new Mazda6 and it looks like one of the rumors has turned out to be true. Some have been suggesting that Mazda was going to take Ford's 3.5 and work their magic on it. The CX-9 will be the first (and hopefully not the last) to get the new 3.7 liter that has 10 more hp (from 263 to 273) and a big bump in torque (from 249 to 270). Of course it's still too early to know if the Mazda6 will be getting this same engine, but it would be quite a development if it did. And if AWD gets added to the list of options for this car, that could make a huge leap in performance to a car that already performs quite well.

backy

Yes, and a whole 3 mph faster than a Sonata. Well worth the 65 extra hp and the $15k extra cash, I'd say.

m1miata

Well, if actually going at those speeds, as in say around 120MPH on the Autobahn, something tells me yes, I would pay the $15K more and then some for a German car, be it BMW or Mercedes. You know, something actually made to drive at high speed. Don't think I would take the Sonata up over 100 maybe 105, though I guess it could feel stable at high speeds. Not wishing to become a national statistic as in 1144, I have no death wish for driving that fast. The 120 to 150 MPH speeds are best left to race tracks, or the Autobahn, in Mercedes, Bimmers, or Porches.

Wonder what the Korean word is for oh sh** :surprise:

Loren

thegraduate

Wonder what the Korean word is for oh sh**

I believe the proper translation is "Daewoo."

mayberryguy

Wonder what the Korean word is for oh sh**

Sonata

benderofbows

It would be fantastic if Mazda keeps their V6 pricing levels about the same, you know more in line with the Fusion and Sonata V6s, than with Accord, Camry and Altima V6s. Then they would really have a winning formula.

I am afraid, however, that they will increase prices significantly with the new model as it is supposed to be larger, more powerful, etc. I hope they don't price themselves out of the market as they have been known to do lately. Witness the huge rebates/discounts and/or slower than expected sales on Mazdaspeed6 and RX-8. IMHO, both of those cars were priced too high to begin with.

Currently, Mazda6 V6s are moving in the low 20's right? This is a couple grand less than Japanese competitors. When the new model comes out, are you going to be able to find a Mazda6 V6 in the low 20's? If they price themselves the same as Accord and Altima, IMO they will continue to have sales troubles.

kdshapiro

Well if you have to question why someone would do it, I would say you are not in the customer demographic.

backy

I wouldn't do it because of 3 more mph, especially since the Sonata's top speed is 2X the legal limit of any state I'd drive it in.

mayberryguy

I wouldn't do it because of 3 more mph, especially since the Sonata's top speed is 2X the legal limit of any state I'd drive it in.

If you think that 3 mph top speed difference is the only performance variant between a 335i and a Sonata, then you have never driven nor would likely appreciate the difference. As kdshipiro said, you aren't the target demographic. Some things are worth the extra cost, imho.

Back on track with the topic, I think the Sonata is a fairly good car, just boring. The car I would most likely pick out of this group would be the Subaru Legacy Spec-B.

benderofbows

"I'm sure the Honda crowd will be all over this, but envy shows up in different ways! :P "

I'll be the first from the "Honda crowd" to say that I like it.

However, from this angle, I see some similarities to the current generation Accord, notably the shape of the hood and the "haunches" over the front wheels, plus the rough shape of the headlights and the grille.

Look at this picture of a current generation Accord (with a Mugen lower bumper and some JDM details)

mz6greyghost

True. But I see a lot more RX-8 and Mazda2 than I do Accord. IMO it's also more aggressive than the current Accord.

benderofbows

"True. But I see a lot more RX-8 and Mazda2 than I do Accord. IMO it's also more aggressive than the current Accord."

Absolutely. I just wanted to point out the styling cues I picked up from that shot. When we get to see additional pictures I'm sure it will have its own unique look. It will certainly be more aggressive, likely handling sharper and riding tigher than the current Accord.

zzzoom6

I hope the new Mazda6 is so good that they can charge as much as the Accord and Altima... thing is, most of the cars in this segment are really good and to expect or hope that any new car will leave others in the dust is unrealistic. and to get people to think of the Mazda6 beyond zoom-zoom or as a niche product will take a huge and successful marketing effort which they have not shown themselves to be capable of. So although when the car is first released and assuming it gets some good press it will likely sell much nearer to MSRP than now, when the honeymoon is over, I'm sure a price advantage will have to be part of Mazda's strategy for it to be more successful than the current Mazda6.