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Midsize Sedans 2.0

18038048068088091065

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  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    Are total fleet sales the same as sales to rental companies? I don't think so. I don't know where to get figures for auto sales versus truck/van sales to rental companies but I know that truck/full size van FLEET sales are huge. Nissan and Toyota truck sales are miniscule compared to the Big 3 and Honda doesn't have a regular regular body on frame pickup and I think that's why Honda isn't in the mix. None of the Asian makers have been marketing a full size work van in the past. I think Nissan has just shown one but I don't even know if it's for sale yet.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Ford's daily rental fleet sales were up 13% in March 2011 over the previous year.

    Here is a website that reports what ALG has found at the conclusion of the 2010 MY. Yet again, Chrysler and GM are at the top of rental fleet vehicles ....

    http://www.autorentalnews.com/News/Story/2011/01/ALG-Releases-OEM-Rental-Fleet-P- enetration-Statistics.aspx
  • baggs32baggs32 Posts: 3,210
    "Are total fleet sales the same as sales to rental companies? I don't think so."

    And your thinking is correct. Fleet sales include taxis, police cars, flower delivery trucks, etc. For example, one of my kid's baseball coaches works for Red Bull and drives a company car. What does Red Bull buy as one of their loaner company cars you might ask? The Toyota Prius. Those were bought at fleet prices but they are certainly not rental cars.

    I've never seen a report on what percentage of fleet sales go to rental companies either come to think of it.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    Ford's daily rental fleet sales were up 13% in March 2011 over the previous year.

    That's pretty much a snapshot in time. What would it indicate if they were down one month versus the previous year? Not a lot. Besides, haven't seen too many Prius with Uhaul printed on the side. ;)
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    Just reporting what information was available. It usually take s alot of digging to find exact rental fleet numbers.

    Judging by the run sheets I receive from Hertz, Enterprise and National rental car agencies, the vast majority are American cars and Chrysler has by far the most amount of cars available. Toyota and Hyundai seem to have the biggest numbers from the imports.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    edited May 2011
    I'd like to find out where those Hyundais are. The Hertz lots I go to around the USA all say the same thing: "We don't buy Hyundais anymore." Same story at Avis, although I did find a 2010 Elantra with 30k miles on it the other day in Madison, but they said "it's not ours." I think National has some Hyundais, but no idea how many. I do see LOTS of Toyotas and Nissans. I almost always get a Nissan (Versa, Sentra, Altima) when I rent a car from Hertz these days. They try to give me Toyotas sometimes (Yaris, Corolla, Matrix, Camry) but I try to switch for another car (except for the Camry) if possible.

    This is borne out in sales numbers, e.g. as of April 1, Hyundai sales to fleet accounts were down 31 percent for the year with fleet sales representing 13 percent of the total sales mix year-to-date, and 11 percent for March. Those numbers seem a lot lower than for other automakers, e.g. Nissan, as mentioned in an earlier post.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,733
    I don't know where to get figures for auto sales versus truck/van sales to rental companies but I know that truck/full size van FLEET sales are huge.
    Trust me, when you're making $100 off of each car from fleet sales, it adds up to a lot of nothing in your pocket quick. Fleet sales are the last thing you want as an auto company if you can help it. Now, someone has to buy new rentals and so on, but you certainly don't want it to be 20-30%+ of your sales. That's essentially just running the plants to keep them running at that point.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    I'd like to find out where those Hyundais are

    Enterprise and Budget is where I have been seeing them. My local Budget store has a fleet of the new Elantra's available.

    I think this is how the whole conversation started. Enterprise has a boat load of 2011 Sonata GLS's they are selling at $18,000 plus....

    Starting in 2009, Hyundai/Kia Group sold a whopping 1/3 of all cars to rental fleet agencies Enterprise, National and Hertz in the first quarter. As of August 2010, Hyundai was the largest supplier to rental fleet, at 16%, of all foreign auto makers, with Nissan and Toyota following them.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    2009 and 2010? This is 2011, last time I checked.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    Trust me, when you're making $100 off of each car from fleet sales, it adds up to a lot of nothing in your pocket quick.

    I don't believe for a minute that the car companies only make $100 off each car sold for fleet. I've heard that low of number thrown around and just don't believe it. Never have had anybody ever offer up any real proof either. That's like a dealer selling you a car for $100 over invoice and trying to get you to believe that's all they made.
  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,737
    I don't believe for a minute that the car companies only make $100 off each car sold for fleet.

    Well, since GM lost billions over many years of high sales while selling a LOT to fleets, I'd be surprised if they were actually making anything on those sales.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    Them and others as well. Could it be they were making $1000 profit when they needed to be making $2000 thus the huge losses? I don't know the answer but selling any item that is valued at $20-$30k for only a $100 margin doesn't make sense. I just think there is obviously a lot more to the equation than simply selling for a loss to rental fleets to keep the presses running.
  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Ford Crown Vic's are only sold to Fleet, a regular consumer can no longer purchase them, so 100% of all CV's are fleet sales. Police and taxi mostly, the rest corporation sales, and usually just stripper models. Those and I would say standard cab LB F150's would be the other majority of fleet sales. When you consider how many police departments still use the CV as their #1 cruiser, that adds up to a lot of sales, and it wouldn't surprise me if a lot of departments are hording them since 2012 is the last year they will be produced. The beauty of the CV is the parts are interchangeable from year to year, a fender from an 07 will still fit a10. A lot of barns store up these parts inventories for the CV, and once they are no longer available, well, they will try to keep them going as long as they can. Look how many years the Checkers were on the road after they were no longer made, some are still being used.

    I found the sales figures, link title

    Crown vic sales were up 91% between 2009 and 2010. Taurus sales jumped up 121%, but those aren't broken down between consumer and fleet. March 2011 sales figures for the CV are at 6176 compared to last year at 3223 units sold. To date this year 14620 have been sold. Those are all Fleet sales. In addition a lot of Town Cars are also sold to fleets. What I didn't see in those numbers above, is that just Ford, or is Mercury, Lincoln, and Volvo included in those fleet sales figures?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    edited May 2011
    2009 and 2010? This is 2011, last time I checked.

    We just finished 1Q in 2011. I think Q3 2010 is valid. If you would like to share evidence that shows a different trend for 2011, I'm listening....
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    I just think there is obviously a lot more to the equation than simply selling for a loss to rental fleets to keep the presses running.

    I think we would be shocked if we saw what it actually costs to build a car. The number would be surprisingly low.

    My guess is it costs $10,000 or less to manufacturer a Chevy Malibu valued at $20,000, not counting R&D
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,666
    There are 3 types of fleet sales.

    Commercial - work trucks, government vehicles, etc. These are long term owners and make good profit. The only discounts are usually for volume purchases.

    Normal rental fleet sales. These are typically higher end vehicles or at least nicely equipped vehicles - not stippers. They're not sold at big discounts and they're not sold in high volume so they don't flood the used car market. They're typically used for premium rentals.

    Rental fleet dumping - this is what Ford, GM and Chrysler used to do when they were overproducing - building more vehicles than they could sell at retail just to keep the factories running. When this happens the mfrs lose - they make little to no profit on the sales and they kill resale value.

    Ford no longer does fleet dumping. The crown vics and town cars are either going to livery service or police/government service. The remaining vehicles that do go to rental fleets are premium models at regular prices. Just go look at any Ford lot and you'll see that they've stopped overproducing vehicles. In fact - they're underproducing a lot of models.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    I already did, a few posts ago. You must have missed it.
  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Posts: 4,116
    Commercial - work trucks, government vehicles, etc. These are long term owners and make good profit. The only discounts are usually for volume purchases.

    One of my roles has been to facilitate focus groups for OEMs to learn what fleet owners want from their vehicles. This is really important for trucks...understanding what up-fitters they use and for what equipment, what special use cases they have, etc. This influences product design (like the up-fitter power panel on F250 and modular racks on Transit Connect). My impression is if one customer is going to by a few hundred trucks, get them all out-fitted the same, and keep them for a while, its a pretty good customer to have.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,733
    Right. Because they make their profit on the out-fitting and modifications. But in the rental car industry, it's not like that at all. Take the Malibu. What percentage of fleet sales for that model are NOT rental companies? Probably less than 5%.

    That kills the model's resale values and image for virtually no profit.

    Of course, if you notice, most of GM's downsizing is from smaller fleet sales, which is a move in the right direction. They really should not care about rental companies any more than Porsche does. Let one of the "other" companies take up the slack.(with the emphasis that their cars are better quality/image and not rentals) If the company wants to buy some, they cough up full price like normal people.
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