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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,666
    I don't disagree, but the gas guzzler tax is on an individual vehicle. The CAFE requirements are for groups of vehicles.

    And the only difference between Republicans and Democrats is what they want to spend OUR money on.........
  • I agree the new Camry is far from ground-breaking material. Sure it will sell, Toyota still has a large base of customers and huge dealer network. It's really time for Toyota to shake things up like Hyundai/Kia have done.


    On another note I was interviewed by the NYTimes (through an referral) and they published my quotes on a 2011 Lacrosse that I just bought new in September. Edmunds kicked in a free t-shirt and several post cards. ;)

    Another guy they interviewed bought an Optima EX Turbo. The article can be read here: NYTimes Automobiles
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    edited November 2011
    Some things the new Camry has going for it are improved FE and a very attractive hybrid package in the LE. Also of course Toyota's long reputation for reliability, and improvements in base power and in interior quality (based on reviews). That is likely more than enough to hold market share, maybe pick some up vs. the likes of Ford, Honda, and Nissan with their relatively old mid-sized offerings. Plus there's a lot of people I think who prefer their cars in Vanilla flavor vs. Tuti-Fruiti. :)
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    Interesting article. Didn't want to wait for E-assist huh? That sounds promising. Something that bothers me is when you compare the LaCrosse, Regal and Verano with the 2.4L they all get +/- 1mpg of each other. You would think there would be several mpg difference at least between the LaCrosse and the Verano. I can't figure it.
  • dodgeman07dodgeman07 Posts: 573
    edited November 2011
    Had to pay $6K more for a 2012 with eAssist. Mine is a CX with the Comfort and Convenience package ($900) and 18" alloys/Michelin Pilot rubber off a Regal that wasn't even on the sticker ($23,600 out-the-door).

    The mileage figures are puzzling. My Lacrosse weighs 3800lbs, the Regal 3600lbs, and the Verano 3500lbs. Same engine is each and very close EPA numbers.

    I've been averaging 25mpg in my Lacrosse running 87 octane, no ethanol fuel. 30mpg on the hwy is achieveable but not at 75mph like I drive on the Interstate. It's in town mileage where I beat the rated 19mpg easily. 21mpg city is not a problem and 29mpg hwy has been typical. Very happy with this car. :blush:
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    I guess the weight isn't all that much different between them so with the same drivetrain it makes some sense. May have something to do with aerodynamics too.....not just weight. I just always expected when you went from a full size car to a compact car you would get some good mpg improvement. good for you though. :D

    Nothing but ethanol around the Chicagoland area so I imagine the Lacrosses numbers would be a little less here although I am usually at or better on my three vehicles versus the EPA estimates even with the ethonol.
  • m6user: The 10% ethanol fuel hurts my mileage too. In the past I ran it and lost 1 or 2mpg versus 100% gasoline.


    I was committed to buying a domestic make this time. My prior new car purchases include: Honda, Audi, Chrysler, and Ford. This is my first new GM product.

    Pertinent to this discussion, I also test drove a 2011 Chevrolet Malibu LT and 2011 Ford Fusion SE. Both of these cars drove well with the edge going to the Malibu for road feel and handling. The Fusion looked better to my eyes. Both need am all-new 2013 model asap. It was clear these two designs were 5 years old.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    edited November 2011
    Been reading a couple reviews of the new Camry Hybrid and noticed some things that seem interesting. One of which:

    Camry Hybrid 0-60 time = 7.2 secs
    Sonata 8.2 secs, Sonata Turbo 6.7 secs
    Also, I believe the Jetta TDI is around 8.5 secs or something like that.
    (numbers were taken from a couple of different sources so they may not match up with every single review out there)

    That's only 1/2 second slower to 60 than a Sonata Turbo. Sounds pretty good for a hybrid that will average about 40mpg per gal on reg unleaded day in day out.

    Now I realized that 0-60 times are not what turns on most midsize buyers but many, myself included, like a little pep on occassion. I use those times mostly for relative comparison. I just assumed hybrids were really pokey but these numbers are kind of eye opening. The only hybrid I've driven is an older Prius and didn't like much about the drive at all. But based on what I've been reading about the new Camry Hybrid, I may have to test drive it.

    It's rated at about 43cty/39hwy and with diesel prices at about a 60 cent premium right now in the Chicago area it seems to be enticing. I know a couple of others on here have mentioned it as a potential value in the midsize class and from what I've read I would have to agree.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    It helps to compare performance numbers from the same source, as each mag seems to have its own methodology. For example, InsideLine says the Camry Hybrid (rated at 200 total hp) will do 0-60 in 7.6 secs. They also said the 2011 Sonata GLS (198 hp) came in at 7.7 secs in their tests (w/o rollout). That seems reasonable given the cars are about the same size (I would guess the hybrid is a little heavier than the Sonata) and power rating. InsideLine also got 6.6 secs 0-60 on the Sonata 2.0T. Others have reported as low as 5.8 secs. (Those road-burners would probably get a better number in the Camry hybrid too.)

  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    Yeah, I did a quick google search compare just to get an approximate idea but as you've pointed out the spread can be somewhat substantial between testers. A couple of the times were from the same mag, Motor Trend I believe, and the other I think was Edmunds. All in all though my point was that the Camry Hybrid was quicker than I would have thought and is comparable to the normally aspirated offerings in the midsize class. Stopping distance witth regenerative brakes were pretty close to the others as well.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,666
    That's the beauty of electric motors - instant torque. There is no delay waiting for RPM to build up to get usable torque.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    Yes, I'm sure that is helping greatly as the hybrid does weigh a little more because of the battery. It seems Toyota and others are starting to chip away at my resistance when it comes to hybrids. They increased the trunk size on the Camry by a couple of cubes which at least puts it close the size of the other midsizers, 13' something I think. They've made the brakes so they aren't so funky. Tire tech is coming around so that you don't feel like you're riding on steel rims when you get the low rolling resistance tires. Don't know if I'm ready yet but they are getting closer to the look, feel and performance of regular sedans which is pretty good IMO.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    Anyone who has ever driven an electiric golf cart compared to a gasoline golf cart, knows the the instant torque is much greater in the electric version.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,666
    I hear great things are in store for the 2013 Fusion hybrid, which would be amazing considering how far ahead it already is.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    which would be amazing considering how far ahead it already is.

    What do you mean it(Fusion Hybrid) is so far ahead? It costs thousands more than the 2012 Camry Hybrid and the 2011 Sonata Hybrid. It gets substantially less MPG than the Camry and around the same overall as the Sonata. I don't call that "far ahead" at all. Maybe the new one will be but the current one...No.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    In what ways is the Fusion hybrid "far ahead" of the 2012 Camry hybrid?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,666
    The Camry only gets 2 mpg more than the Fusion - I wouldn't call that "substantially less". However, the 2010-2011 Camry did get "substantially less" MPG than the 2010-2011 FFH (5+).

    The Fusion has a 2 year head start. The 2013 Fusion will leapfrog the Camry next year and Ford will be ahead again. And the C-Max should also give the Prius a run for its money on the smaller lower end.
  • dchevdchev Posts: 38
    Your statement is called a speculation. Nobody knows how good the gas millage of next Ford Fusion Hybrid will be.
    If they manage to get better gas millage, well, it would be great for all customers, but right now we do not have any information.
    It is great that Toyota was able to imrove the gas millage of Camry Hybrid by 9 MPG. I believe that Camry Hybrid is the best Camry among all different Camry models.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,666
    It's not just speculation - it's information from insiders that say the new FFH will make a big jump in fuel economy with Ford's generation III hybrid system. Guess we'll just have to wait and see.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,952
    2 more mpg is better...right? Thousands less in price is better....right?

    I'm talking about the 2012 Camry. Let's compare what is available right now as that is what I was talking about. When the new Fusion Hybrid gets here than we can compare but right now the current Fusion Hybrid is behind. And I think Toyota has a lot longer successful history with hybrid tech than Ford has via the Prius if I'm not mistaken.

    If the Ford leapfrogs the Camry in the future I will readily admit it as I have no vested interest other than for discussion sake. You seem to have a hard time dealing with the here and now. Fusion Hybrid WAS better than the Camry Hybrid but the Camry has in your words leapfrogged the Fusion. Just accept for it for now.
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