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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,663
    edited November 2012
    I'm headin' to our local Hasting's Book Store tonight and grabbing me a copy and reading up on it. I've only noticed one article on it and it wasn't definitive what was causing the problems. Mexican workers? Foreign workers? European?

    Jealousy over Alan Mulally's earnings? When Alan Mulally was my boss at The Boeing Company's Everett Division, we would gossip about his boss-i-ness. But he was the boss. I mean, 'Where's the beef'?

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 13,584
    you have to look at the details. I believe it primarily had to do with the DSG (so just focus?) and the mytouch nonsense.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,623
    Just read C/D's review of the Fusion Hybrid. Less quick than the old one, but averaged 32 mpg. I thought that sounded pretty good until I read CR's review of the Altima 2.5. They averaged 31 mpg and 44 mpg on the highway... and that car starts around $22k, thousands less than the Fusion.

    Of course, maybe CR would get higher FE on the Fusion Hybrid than C/D did. But it's pretty amazing what can be achieved now with regular ICE powertrains on mid-sized cars... numbers that would look good even on a compact car. Will be interesting to see how the new Accord does in CR's tests. Too bad they didn't test it alongside the Altima.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346
    I see Hyundai and Kia have been under the microscope for falsifying EPA mileage numbers. I'm not surprised. I thought the new Sonata's numbers looked a little too optimistic to me. As did their new Elantra.

    I also don't think we would see that CR's Altima 2.5 with such impressive numbers if the car was loaded to..say...half to two thirds capacity, the way many of these cars will actually be going down the highway. That 44 (or 31 avg FTM) would be basically impossible for any length of time and simply not achievable in hilly country. I even wonder if it is truly representative of its potential if the A/C was on during entire review.

    I am no Hybrid fan, beyond mere speculative curiosity due to my perception of real world longevity costs down the road long after wty, but I think in my example above, a hybrid or even the newer turbos tuned for economy, have the ability to more closely get the higher avg in real world use.

    I feel the same way if you were to compare a regularly heavy footed driver in a CVT vs a conventional 6 speed auto. That type of driver will get higher mpg with the 6 speed.
  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 386
    Considering how c/d got 19 mpg in their recent test of the Altima ( in their comparision test) you can see how they tend to drive cars, so the 32 for the fusion hybrid is impressive, CR will almost definately get better results in their testing, so you will have to wait until they test it to get a true picture of the comparision ( I believe CR tries to duplicate the tests with every car they test, while C/D may not).
    In any case the Altima CR results look good, but the ones from C/D don't so that should tell you not to compare the two mags economy results.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,623
    I see Hyundai and Kia have been under the microscope for falsifying EPA mileage numbers. I'm not surprised. I thought the new Sonata's numbers looked a little too optimistic to me.

    If you read that report, you should have noticed that the only Sonatas and Optimas included in the EPA estimates reset are the hybrids... not the regular ICE cars.
  • plektoplekto Posts: 3,706
    edited November 2012
    It's entirely possible that the car can get silly numbers on the EPA tests. Auto manufacturers have long known what the test is and often put in extra tall gears and alter the shift points so that the car is basically idling as much of the time as possible while it is on the dyno at those specific speeds. (ie - they'll make it shift into overdrive at 1-2mph lower than the city test speeds as an example)

    But in real-world driving, this results in an undriveable car, so most people do what comes naturally. They give it more gas to not be a hazard or die of boredom hyper-milling along like a 90 year old man. The most incredible example of this was the original Prius, which was completely silly and had to be altered downwards. (this was before the EPA changed the ratings as well).

    GM andFord are also famous for this, but because they almost always use 6 cylinder engines in their vehicles, they can get away with the car being geared wrong since there's enough torque to still be driveable without flogging it or having to down-shift constantly.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited November 2012
    I see tons of Sonatas, Camrys, Altimas, Malibus, and Fusions at the rental car dealerships. The only one I've seen few of and hard to find at the Rental companies are the Accord and Passat. Not, that you can't find them, but not in the abundance of the other 5.

    If I was getting a mid-size sedan tomorrow, it would either be the Altima, Accord, or Passat.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,419
    Those would be good choices for sure. But none of them, other than perhaps the 200, Avenger and Galant would be inferior choices.

    I like the Passat best for room, quiet, handling and restrained but tasteful styling. But I wouldn't be unhappy to drive the new Accord (previous version looks kind of dowdy to me), or the Altima or even the Malibu. The new Fusion comes with that often-used Ford technique of styling a car to actually appear smaller than it is. Some people might like that. I don't, just as I thought it was silly way back with the 1996 Taurus, which was bigger but struck Tom and Ray on Car Talk at the time as looking smaller than the 1995. I digress.

    I'd buy the Fusion Hybrid in a heartbeat if I needed a new vehicle. However, unless I crash, I won't be needing one for awhile. I still think the Optima looks awesome, while the Sonata is not to my taste. Very competitive market, and some have to lose out, even if they are good cars.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,623
    Hertz for one has Passats. I got one the other day in Phoenix, an SE. Nice ride. One of the few good things about business travel these days is getting to check out different cars.

    Accords are pretty scarce on rental although I've seen them at Hertz and other places before. Hertz used to have a lot of Sonatas but not lately, from what I've seen. Other rental companies may have them. I don't see many Optimas at all--and I'd like to rent one of those sometime.

    I'd likely favor the Altima 2.5S, Accord LX if looking for a mid-sized car right now--best blend of fuel economy, ride/handling, interior room, and interior/exterior style out there for the money, IMO. I'd also look at the Optima LX. However, local VW dealers sometimes offer a 0 down lease on the Passat for around $200, and that could be hard to passat-up... er, pass up.
  • Though I'm currently not in the market, if I were buying a midsize sedan, I'd have the Accord and Altima at the top of my list. They're both handsome vehicles, and I think their interiors are by far the best in the class. The only concern I have is that I hear they've both lost a bit of their sportiness, but if they've made up for that with increased ride comfort, that'd be fine with me.

    For now, I'm pretty happy with my 2007 4cyl EX Accord. It has given me 20,000 trouble free miles over the past two years and still feels incredibly solid.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346
    backy said:
    "If you read that report, you should have noticed that the only Sonatas and Optimas included in the EPA estimates reset are the hybrids... not the regular ICE cars."

    GST responds with:
    If you had read this report you would find that your report and this one vary wildly with affected cars.
    See link below, and note the following additional cars involved which are NOT hybrids.
    Hyundai's Elantra, Accent, Azera, Genesis, Tucson, Veloster and Santa Fe.
    Kia's Sorrento, Rio, Soul, Sportage

    http://ca.finance.yahoo.com/news/epa-audit-finds-inflated-gas-mileage-hyundai-ki- a-083359433.html

    "The errors involve 13 models from the 2011 through 2013 model years, including seven Hyundais and six Kias. Window stickers will have to be changed on some versions of the following models: Hyundai's Elantra, Sonata Hybrid, Accent, Azera, Genesis, Tucson, Veloster and Santa Fe. Kia models affected include the Sorrento, Rio, Soul, Sportage and Optima Hybrid."
  • I know these have been posted before, but again here are links to the complete official lists from both Hyundai and Kia...

    https://hyundaimpginfo.com/overview/affected-models

    https://kiampginfo.com/overview/affected-models
  • A reporter is looking for a recent car buyer whose car's sunroof/moonroof feature was a big factor in their purchase decision. Please send your daytime contact info to smar@edmunds.com no later than Monday, November 5, 2012 at 5 p.m. Pacific.

    Need help navigating? kirstie_h@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,346
    I agree with some of the points you make here.

    Crash tests are also manipulated in much the same way. Actually, the test itself is not necessarily manipulated, but the structure/design of the car is built in anticipation of said crashes.

    If you notice the link I posted above to backy, it is interesting to note that Hyundia and Kia are taking a very responsible stance for their errors and are issuing prepaid debit cards to original owners. They are calculated to represent the difference mpg claims in 15k miles per year + an additional 15% for life of ownership of that car to original owner.

    Even though it still could be a very well handled damage-control maneuver, regardless of motive of the original (potential) misrepresentation, it is being handled better than many other certain brands I can think of.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,419
    But I think you missed backy's point: while there were a number of ICE Kias and Hyundais that over-estimated mpg, ICE Sonatas and Optimas were not among them.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,623
    edited November 2012
    Thanks for the reminder that this is a discussion about MID-SIZED SEDANS... not compacts, subcompacts, near-luxury cars, sporty cars, SUVs etc.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,652
    It's entirely possible that the car can get silly numbers on the EPA tests. Auto manufacturers have long known what the test is and often put in extra tall gears and alter the shift points so that the car is basically idling as much of the time as possible while it is on the dyno at those specific speeds. (ie - they'll make it shift into overdrive at 1-2mph lower than the city test speeds as an example)

    They don't have to try that hard. I believe each manufacturer performs their own tests and shares that info with the EPA (fox guarding hen house). I think the EPA only performs the odd audit.
  • mtnman1mtnman1 Westerville, OhioPosts: 371
    edited November 2012
    Maybe they should make car buyers reimburse Manufacturers if they get better mileage. Had a 2003 Sonota V6 which I gave to my daughter (nearing 100,000 miles) and I got 30mpg on the highway. My Current Ford Fusion SEL V6 is rated at 19/26 and I always get close to 30mpg Hwy and around 18 or 19 city. My Wife's Highlander Limited 4WD V6 is rated 17/22 and we get close to the city mpg, but we get 23.5mpg on the highway. Traded a 2011 Kia Sorento EX FWD V6 for the Highlander and usually got 25mpg Hwy, but had trouble getting over 16 city.
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