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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited December 2012
    Yes Greg, the Falcon was certainly no ball of fire. And I understand your post content. But I think the pendulum has swung too far though on the upstroke. We have had very impressively fuel efficient, 'green' and quick cars for a number of years already, that didn't have the..not sure how to say...dependence on the dealer/manufacturer to the degree that they seem to be in recent years.

    As for dependability, I guess I am not recalling this the same as you have. If a car is reliable and has a good rep, yes, it does seem to be the case to a greater degree than yesteryears, but if it has issues, they seem to be a lot more elusive and problematic for the guinea pigs which of course are the unfortunate owners. I could cite many many examples, but know this isn't the place for it.

    I know that in all new designs there are bound to be teething issues. But at a certain point, the degree at which we are experimented on or with (our $, time, inconvenience, stress, etc etc) is excessive. I get that they are anxious to try to get some $ back after seeing so many go out in R&D, but IMO, they spend too little test-time in their own hands before unleashing these inevitable unpleasant surprises on the consumer. These recent issues with FORD's new entries is a prime example of that. And when a new design has already been released overseas years prior, there are even fewer excuses for issues with that vehicle here.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,177
    I drove over the to try and make some sense of all of this.Once I drive through an acre of Foci' and Mustangs I finally entered Fusion land. One of the Fusions' had its hood partially open, so I opened to the hood to get a gander and right on the plastic engine cover it had a TSB#. (sorry had no pen). It was a 1.6

    I looked further down the line, and there were 4 more Fusi', all 1.6 models. They were locked tight....but I bet TSB tags were on them too.

    It is very hard to bring a competitive midsize sedan to market.

    I really, really enjoyed my 5 minute test drive I took in a 2.0 Ecoboost. It was quick, but after getting out the windshield feel off the track a bit, leaving a 1/2" gap to get rained in. service guy came over and but a tarp over it.

    So, this concludes my Ford shopping. For about 1 year considering all the little niggles ford has yet to excise. :sick:
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,177
    I drove over the to try and make some sense of all of this.Once I drive through an acre of Foci' and Mustangs I finally entered Fusion land. One of the Fusions' had its hood partially open, so I opened to the hood to get a gander and right on the plastic engine cover it had a TSB#. (sorry had no pen). It was a 1.6

    I looked further down the line, and there were 4 more Fusi', all 1.6 models. They were locked tight....but I bet TSB tags were on them too.

    It is very hard to bring a competitive midsize sedan to market.

    SO, I found a salesman who took me to a white 2.0. I really, really enjoyed my 5 minute test drive. The car was quick, but while getting out, the drivers side window got stuck on its way up. It was off the track by 1" leaving a 1/2" gap to get rained in. service guy came over and put a tarp over it.

    So, this concludes my Ford shopping. For about 1 year considering all the little niggles ford has yet to excise. :sick: :confuse: :mad:

    This concluded my interest in Ford.
  • After nearly 9 weeks of waiting for it, I finally have an estimated delivery date for my new Fusion! 12-20-2012, only one week from today! If I'm able to pick it up on 12-22-12, it will be exactly 10 weeks since I placed my order. Looks like I may actually get my new car right before Christmas! If that happens, that means I'll be spending my birthday driving around in it on New year's Eve!
  • sdcal2sdcal2 Posts: 12
    Ordered daughters Aug 8 got November 20th and gave back Dec 2. We will see if they really send back next week.
  • sdcal2sdcal2 Posts: 12
    Hope it's not a 1.6!!!
  • Hello all,

    I live in NJ and I want to buy a new 2012 Camry SE. I want to pay $23,000 out the door (including all taxes and fees) and do not have a trade in vehicle. Am I asking for to little or to much? Can somebody help me with this.

    Thanks in advance!
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,665
    CR is doing some major backpedaling on their criticism of Ford's hybrid mpg rating and their test results.

    They're now reporting that because Ford's hybrid engines can go up to 62 mph in electric mode and the EPA test is run mostly below that speed, the vehicles do very well on the EPA test. However, CR's highway test (the one they reported) is well above that speed so the Fords are never in electric mode. In other words, if you drive like the EPA test you'll get the advertised 47 mpg. If you don't then you'll do much worse.

    Ford also showed the results of CRs City test for Prius, Prius V, Fusion and C-Max hybrids. On the city test the Fusion, Cmax, Sonata, Camry and Prius V were all between 10 and 12 mpg worse than the EPA rating. However, the Prius C was 16 mpg below EPA rating and the Prius was 19 mpg below the EPA rating.

    Why didn't CR complain about the Prius being 19 mpg worse than EPA rating on the city test?

    The answer should be obvious.

    http://news.consumerreports.org/cars/2012/12/why-do-fords-new-c-max-fusion-hybri- ds-ace-the-epa-government-fuel-economy-tests.html?EXTKEY=I72RSC0
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,149
    same thing with the woman that sued honda because she did not get the mileage on the window sticker. Never mind that it clearly says "estimate", but it is what the government, by law, is telling them to put there! The EPA defines the test, so that is what the manufacturers do. It is not supposed to be exact real world #s.

    Hybrids though seem to be a much tougher target. Most cars seem to be reasonably close.

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,950
    The woman, a lawyer, you're referring to was fine with her hybrid until Honda discovered that it's expensive batteries were not going to hold up and they would be replacing a ton of them under warranty. They had owners bring their hybrids in and reprogrammed them to save the batteries. But by doing this the MPG was drasticallty reduced. That was the crux of the lawsuit and the lady won even against Honda's high powered lawyers. I'm sure Honda appealed or settled but I don't know about the follow up. It wasn't nearly as simple as someone just not getting EPA numbers with their new car. If it had been as simple as that the lawsuit never would have made it to trial.

    I think someone that has a law degree can figure out that the EPA estimates are just that and can be in a range depending on conditions and driving habits. However, if I was getting just fine MPG and than had a recall and repairs and when I got my car back my MPG was reduced by 25%, I would be PO'd too.

    So, you see, it is not quite the same thing.

    But I seem to recall that CR said the Fusion and C-Max tests were the furtherst off of any hybrid they had ever tested. I think that is for overall MPG, not just city MPG.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,665
    But I seem to recall that CR said the Fusion and C-Max tests were the furtherst off of any hybrid they had ever tested. I think that is for overall MPG, not just city MPG.

    Read the link I posted. It was the highway test that skewed the results for the Ford hybrids because the EPA test is conducted mostly under 62 mph and the CR test is a steady 65 mph. That was the difference. The City test for the Ford hybrids was in the same range as the Prius C, Sonata and Camry hybrids (10-12 mpg below EPA). The Prius was 19 mpg below EPA on the City test but you don't see CR making headlines with it.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,681
    In other words, if you want to drive on a freeway at a typical speed limit, 65-70 mph, you won't get anywhere close to the "highway" fuel economy on a Fusion hybrid.

    But if you drive 65-70 mph on a typical ICE car, you stand a good chance of getting at least close to the EPA highway fuel economy. For example, in CR's test of the 2013 Altima, they easily exceeded the EPA highway number on their 65 mph test.

    So the lesson here seems to be, if you intend to drive a lot on the highways and freeways of the USA, the Fusion hybrid isn't a good choice, since you're paying much more for that car than for a regular mid-sized sedan that will probably get better highway fuel economy than the Fusion hybrid.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,665
    It only means that if you drive 65 you won't get 47 mpg. But they didn't say that the Fusion hybrid's highway mpg was worse than other vehicles - they only said that it was further below the EPA estimate. But the EPA estimate of 47 mpg is far above the other vehicle's EPA estimates to begin with.

    It will still beat the Camry hybrid, Infiniti hybrid and Lexus ES hybrid at those speeds in overall mpg. And if you can drop back from 65 to 60 you'll beat them by a larger margin. And it still beats most non hybrid midsized sedans even on the pure highway test. All for only about a $2500 premium. I only drive 9K miles per year and I'd break even in only 3 years.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,681
    And if you can drop back from 65 to 60 you'll beat them by a larger margin.

    Good luck with that on most freeways in the USA. You'll also beat the EPA ratings for ANY car cruising at 60 mph.

    Altima was in the low-40s on the highway in the CR tests. So you are saying the Fusion was better than that on the CR highway test?
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,665
    I said it beats most midsized sedans, not all. And nobody drives 65 mph 100% of the time.

    Not sure what point you're trying to make.
  • b25nutb25nut Templeton, CAPosts: 199
    Buying the 2013 Fusion Hybrid, regardless of the MPG (which is still excellent), you're still getting a better car than the Altima. Just check out the Consumer Reviews for both cars on this site. The difference in city mpg will put the Fusion far ahead of the Altima in overall mpg for almost everyone. I came very close to buying the 2013 Altima. I'm glad I didn't.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    What is not being discussed here, though, is that even if you do stay under 62 mph, you are on the batteries..great..but for how long? Many highway commutes will deplete the batteries since there is no active braking or other regenerative means to recharge the batteries, and at that point you are using even more fuel to actually throw a minimum charge back into the batteries, and when you do finally get off the freeway, there will not be much battery reserve available to give you the higher coveted city FE you expect from a hybrid.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,681
    Nobody drives under 62 on the highway much of the time.
  • No, it's a 2.0!
  • fury63fury63 Posts: 18
    edited December 2012
    Well after having the Titanium for 2 months I can give a bit better review. Overall I really like the car. It handles very well in turns and is a great drive both city and highway. I have Goodyear Eagle LS2's for OEM. They seem to do okay in the snow. The car gets it's share of looks and I have yet to see another on the road.

    Mileage is not what I hoped it would be. I'm getting 28-30 on the highway - mostly 65mph+. You can get 32-34 mpg doing 55 but that's not most of my driving. In the city, you really need to look at the instantaneous mileage meter and use a really light foot to get good city mpg. Overall I have 24.7 mpg combined with probably 60/40 city/highway so not too bad (my foot is still heavy). I hope that after 5K miles that maybe it gets better. Coming from a 6 cylinder engine, I see hills and wind really impact a 4 cylinder.

    The one thing I can't get used to is the digital fuel gauge. It's not adjusted right and is almost impossible to show full. If you do get it full, a mile of driving will pull it off pretty quick. I thought this had a 13 gal gas tank but the specs say 16.5. It would suck renting this and trying to get from the gas station back to Hertz without the tank showing not full! Not sure if the dealer can fix this or not (or whether they would acknowledge its an issue). The other day I was down to 1/8 tank and I was only able to get 12 gal in.

    The mic for hands free is pretty bad for iPhone users. I got complaints of a lot of wind noise. I tried a Samsung Galaxy and there was much less noise. In any case, I found a Jawbone Icon that plays really well with my iPhone and Sync so I can answer calls, etc. from the steering wheel controls.

    Overall, coming from an '06 and then a '10 Maxima, I'm happy with the car. I do miss my heated steering wheel though the remote start makes up for it a little!
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