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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    No, actually was I was trying to communicate was that the potential to use more fuel is greater at the SAME throttle position, assuming engine management interpreted your request for more urge in that immediate point in time. If you disagree, that's your prerogative and I am ok with that.
    But just to be clearer do realize that increased hp and torque from the same displacement (bore and stroke and increased air flow) is not an entirely free ride right? The closest you can come actually to that scenario is through the use of a turbo.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,666
    If you put the same amount of air into an engine it uses the same amount of fuel regardless of how that fuel is delivered. DI makes it more efficient so you get more power from the same amount of air and fuel. Just like advancing the timing.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,179
    edited January 2013
    The 15% lower rates on the Passat are due to a more experienced, older driver/owner average.

    For example, a friend of mine purchased one when he was 19, and had personalized plates on his red 1994 GLS Trek. They read DANSJET He was pulled over late at night 2 weeks after purchase. The cop came to the window and said

    "Mr Jet, license and registration " He never lived that down. LOL.

    (this was 17 yrs ago and he moved out of state)
  • podpod Posts: 176
    How the air/fuel mixture is regulated in newer cars with turbos or even NA cars with variable valve timing is unclear to me. That more "air" is deliverd to the cylinder in both cases is clear enough, how does the fuel rail know how to adjust the bolus of fuel to achieve a constant A/F mixture (which is usually about 15 parts air/1 part fuel). I don't understand how the fuel delivery system (whether direct injection or regular fuel injection) knows how much air (oxygen) has been delivered for combustion. What is the method of determining the amount of air delivered (is the Mass Air Sensor that sensitive?) and once the computer knows the amount of air how does it regulate the fuel delivery to match (is there a variable pressure delivery system that follows the computers info on mass air delivery?).
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,666
    The mass airflow sensor determines the amount of air entering the engine whether it's naturally aspirated or forced induction. This tells the PCM how much fuel to add to maintain a 14.7:1 stoichiometric air fuel ratio. A higher ratio is a lean condition (not enough fuel) and a lower ratio is a rich condition (too much fuel). This is detected by the O2 sensors in the exhaust and the PCM adjusts the fuel accordingly. The PCM may also adjust the A/F ratio slightly for special conditions. This is why you get a CEL if the MAF or O2 sensors are not working properly.

    This is also why a dirty air filter doesn't affect fuel economy - just power. The PCM adjusts the fuel to match the lower airflow.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,680
    Camry 31,407
    Accord 29,428
    Altima 23,966
    Sonata 20,826
    Fusion 19,283
    Passat 14,462
    Optima 12,008
    Malibu 11,630
    200 9,080

    It's ironic that the Camry is arguably one of the weakest cars in this group, and yet still has the best sales. A real race between Accord and Camry is shaping up for 2013, esp. since the Camry got a "Poor" rating compared to Accord's "Good" in the small offset crash test by IIHS.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,680
    Toyota Camry 404,886
    Honda Accord 331,872
    Nissan Altima 302,934
    Hyundai Sonata 230,605
    Ford Fusion 241,263
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,680
    edited January 2013
    Camry c. 400k
    Accord c. 375k
    Altima c. 325k
    Fusion c. 300k
    Sonata c. 275k
    Passat c. 175k
    Optima c. 150k
    Malibu c. 125k

    Total guess, but maybe the Fusion will pass the Sonata? Ford certainly hopes so. And although the Camry will falter, I don't think the Accord will quite catch up. But I could be wrong.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    Interesting... Hyundai/Kia led mid-sized car sales in December. Of course, it's with two cars. But the Optima outselling the Malibu is a shocker... not based on car quality, but on sheer volume of Chevy dealers vs. Kia dealers. Maybe the general public agrees with consensus opinion on the Malibu: not a very good car.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,680
    thanks to TSX69 at temple of vtec ( for these;

    Camry 404,886 +31.2%
    Accord 331,872 +40.8%
    Altima 302,934 +12.6%
    Fusion 241,263 -2.7%
    Sonata 230,605
    Malibu 210,951 +3%
    Optima 152,399
    200 125,476 +44%
    Passat 117,023 +413.7%
    Avenger 96,890 +51%
    Legacy 47,127 +11.2%
    6 33,756 -5.5%
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,179
    Even though the Sonata got all the good press when it came out in 2011, the Optima just quietly started winning people over, including me. The shape is very nice. to me it looks like a Korean Audi. (Kia hired away an Audi designer who penned the car).

    Car and Driver said in a 5 sedan comparo "we prefer our Sonata in Optima clothing". Most magazines loved the materials in the cabin (EX with leather) and the wide power band that the 2.4 delivers. Also, it has 200 HP and most competitors are at 170-189.

    The thing about Chevy is that the car is nice and all, but it is SOOOO Rent-a-Car looking that nobody I know WANTS one. It's just not a cool car. Its for 65 year old men that still value American-Pie-Chevrolet. I gave GM a try in the early 90's and all I can think of is all the recalls on my car and how much time it spent in the shop. (Lumina 3.4L 24v V6) :lemon: Awful car.

    You guys "feel me" on this? Did any of you own a Beretta GT? Remember the Corsica? Cavalier Z24? GM HAS come a long way since then. They ARE trying and that's good news.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited January 2013
    Maybe the 65 year olds are buying it purely for the OEM standard stock audio system..which BLOWS anything Korean outta the water. (Kia..apparently even the Hyundai's have slightly better sound) Been reading a lot lately of Kia's...the Rio, Accent and Optima and an unfortunate theme was revealed. A very universal lack of satisfaction with their sound systems. When I say "universal", perhaps I used the word almost too loosely..there were the very odd customers who said it was just fine. But we also know that there are people out there who will listen to their radio not totally on frequency, so...enough said on that one..

    I sat in a brand new Malibu in the showroom in 2011. Trim level was under leather, but seat had full power. I simply couldn't believe how BAD it was! My old GF's 92 Grand Am's seat (3.3l V6..killer..for the time/money stock OEM stereo) was nothing to write home about, although looked comfy, but as memory serves, it was better than that 19 year newer Malibu's perch. No excuse in my opinion. Hence the low sales numbers, or at least that and numerous other reasons..hence the low sales numbers. It is obvious that GM's idea of what appeals to the wanna-buy-US mentality is sorely lacking in this class of car. And the kicker's not a cheap car to purchase!

    I wonder if they still use those plastic V intake manifolds that crack when barely aged? It's stuff like that that people remember and stir comments like cski's probably never going back.

    Btw, cski, that 65 year comment? That's still a ways off for me, but at the rate the years are flying by, not that far away. I think you should have said at least 80 year old. I have some elderly friends who I drive them (in their car usually) down to the city for hospital appointments. She is 88 and he is 91. They have bought Malibus for the last few decades. Their late 90's had a better seat than their latest 2010 has. I will say though, the late 90's one or mighta been a 2000? V6 got fairly good fuel economy on a 6 hour return drive involving some intense Toronto traffic. And it had fairly good steering feel..not even sure how GM pulled that off cuz the 107k km (66000 miles) suspension was completely toasted on the front end. And I have ridden with them..not curb climbers and certainly not hard on their cars.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,170
    seats are personal opinion. I had a malibu rental back in October (mid range, with suede of some kind inserts?) that I drove from NJ to VA for business. About 5 hours each way, and I really liked the seats. Very comfortable and supportive.

    I think the stereo (this had XM thankfully) was fine too.

    overall, much better driving than I expected, not that I would ever buy one!

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Yes, that is quite true about seats. We all have so many different body shapes etc.

    Re the stereo, I think you must have misunderstood..I was giving GM credit for always having good sound.

    The real puzzling thing about the stereo in Kia and Hyundai, you would think these would have basically identical sound (or within reason of course since certain small changes can affect sound) among the same classed cars. But it seems in all 3 models of each brand, the Kia seems to be weaker in this area even tho even the Hyundai's too are not that great. I think I even read that cski, whom we know is pretty Kia gung-ho and a genuine fan, was not overly impressed with his stereo in his new Optima.

    And here we have the lowly Dodge 200, and someone here (mighta been you stickguy?) said the stereo was great even if the rest of the car was...well..the sales numbers above tell that story I suppose as I haven't driven one.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 14,170
    wasn't me with a 200. I have never driven one. And will be quite happy to live me life never having driven one!

    2013 Acura RDX (wife's), 2007 Volvo S40 (when daughter lets me see it), 2000 Acura TL (formerly son's, now mine again), and new Jetta SE (son's first new car on his own dime!)

  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,179
    The MAS also works in conjunction with the Throttle Position Sensor; which alters the parameters in the PCM. It's pretty complicated when you consider all the conditions. Cars are spaceships today compared with cars built up to the mid 1980's. Just the PCM module in all of our cars has 100,000 more computing power than the guidance computer in the Apollo LEM.

    Food for thought
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,179
    edited January 2013
    It's funny you mentioned Toronto...not far from my families origins in Buffalo NY.

    Here are some trim nicknames directly from a GM mechanic.
    LT= Loose Trim
    LS= Less Stuff
    GT= Good Tires

    My grandfather was a foreman in the GM transmission plant in Buffalo for 30 years. He ALWAYS bought Malibu's. I remember the brown '79 V6 model 2 door with vinyl bench seat very clearly. To buy Japanese up there would have been heresy in those days. (1970-80).

    My Chevy experience:
    I loved my 87 Z24(2.8 MFI). It was $5000 and I financed it myself at age 19 in 1990. My best friend had a blue one, so I purchased one too (red). His had the T-125 3-spd automatic, mine had the 5 speed manual and. Of course my trans developed a crack all the way down the case, causing a poor clutch alignment that resulted in damaging the pressure plate every 30 k.
    Also, it ate alternators every 30 k too. However, it was quick and I loved the hood scoops, the LED digi-dash, the sound of the engine, and the A/C never broke down after 144 k. SO, aside from the two problems mentioned it was reliable.
    The 1992 Z-34 was my attempt to replace my aging Z, and after 6 mos I sold it. Just a dreadful car. It never ran right. Ever. Took a $2500 loss. :sick:

    Next ride? 1994 black Integra 2 door 5 speed.It was awesome. Best car I ever had. The one with the round headlights and the 142 HP 1.8. Great engine and the handling was phenomenal.
  • puppybone69puppybone69 Posts: 24
    edited January 2013
    This is my Fusion, there are many like it, but this one is mine! My Fusion
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,666

    (This is my rifle, this is my gun. This is for fighting.......)
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Looks good. I like the wheels. Nice clean 5 spokes..hard to beat.
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