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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,950
    Mazda owner - "I love my car".

    Hyndai/Kia owner - "I love my warranty".

    Actually I think Hyundai/Kia make fine cars for the price. But you are right about the others. A number of years ahead in engineering.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    I love both my Hyundais. :) The ten-year warranty is nice too. But I haven't had to use it much at all on my 9-year-old Elantra (which is still in warranty after all that time, imagine that!) and not yet on my 2013 Sonata. Has that powerful yet economical 2.4L GDI engine. Let's see, when did the other mid-sizers have something like that available--was it 3+ years ago as on the Sonata, since the other automakers are so far ahead in engineering? No? Interesting...

    Mazda owners HAVE to love their cars instead of their warranties since there isn't much to love on that score. ;) And they are fine cars, especially that new Mazda6. A puzzle why they don't sell better than they do.
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,950
    Just cause you've been lucky with your Hyundais doesn't make them representative. ;) That engine has a lot of horses but it doesn't seem to be any faster to 60 than the rest of the pack so it makes me wonder still about their HP ratings. Good cars though. I almost bought one when we bought our 2007 Mazda6 but the buttoned down steering/suspension just won out the day. Oh, and we didn't use our warranty either but it is gone now. :sick: However, knock on wood, we have had no problems whatsoever and it is going on 95k miles. :shades:

    What I can't understand is that there is no thread on the Mazda6 forum for the 2014 and nobody over there is even talking about it. Mazda is advertsiing the heck out of the 3 and the CX-5 but I haven't seen one ad specifically about the 6. I think the new 6 matches or betters any other midsize sedan in just about any measurement except maybe the center display on the dash. It's a little small but from what I've read that may be one of the first changes they make on the 2015 or even when they bring the deisel over this fall.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,177
    Some people have good luck with X brand, and others don't. Some like Hondas, some Toyota. Owning a Kia doesn't mean I love ALL Kia's. The Optima looks good to me. Before I bought it, I did research and then made a choice. The new Accord, and the new M6 were not available in December 2011.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited March 2013
    I also think the Optima is a great looking car. And I also like its office..but of course the office only involves looking forward. The fun stops there unfortunately..

    I still haven't seen a new 6 in person, but it sure does present well online.

    I also think the new Accord is an aesthetic improvement over the last two versions.

    I find it interesting that more than one manufacturer has reservations when offering bigger power with a CVT. The recurring theme seems to be that they must not stand up when presented with those extra levels of torque...Honda only offering it with the 4..Nissan's uses a belt with the 4, steel with the 6..etc

    I commend Mazda for offering a proper 6 speed auto. Combined with a 4 cylinder should provide for good longevity too. And I hear it is quite a gem of a tranny..
    Also impressive is that Mazda has managed the best fuel economy, (I presume due to utilizing the most torque at the lowest revs, compared to Honda's probably very sweet but much higher strung revver) by resisting the probable temptation to use a CVT in it also. Given its potential as it stands now, I would guess that had they taken that high CR Skyactive with its exceptional low rev torque numbers, and teamed it with a CVT they could have extracted even more impressive FE numbers. But wisely, they forfeited 1.5 to 2 and maybe even as much as 3 city mpg, and offered the auto equipped car with a proper driver's 6 sd auto. What a win win, cuz even so, they still retained the FE nod.

    When it arrives with the diesel, and if Mazda decides to do an AWD with the diesel, but still offer that package in humbler trim levels, I could see it quickly rising to the top of people's; even those who were not even considering a mid-sizer, short list.

    Furthermore, Mazda needs to be the first Asian brand to compete with VW's 12 year rust wty. What better way to attract back previously loyal customers who are smarting still over having one of the rusty ones? And gain new customers who love the idea of VW's great wty, but have more perceived confidence in the Mazda's (Asian) reliability potential..
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,950
    and if Mazda decides to do an AWD with the diesel

    Why would that be such a great thing? VW doesn't do it and it would hurt FE which is part of the draw of diesel in the first place. It has front wheel drive which is OK in the snow belt and from a sporty driving aspect it doesn't seem like AWD and diesel go together that well.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited March 2013
    You are suggesting that diesel and sporty do not go hand in hand?

    Let's enter a Rally..you in your gas job 2WD, me with my AWD diesel..I'll give you half the laps or mileage headstart, and all specks of my snow dust will still be grounded and aging before you are in sight of the finish line.

    So the half laps headstart isn't enough you say? Ok, so you get AWD too, and we both leave at the same time...I'm still gonna clean the track up with ya in the diesel.

    I have a feeling you've never driven a performance oriented AWD turbo diesel then? Boy do you have a treat to look forward to...and also would be surprised by the number of diesel owners who look for performance AND fuel economy. With the diesel you can have both. With gas if you have one, you know you aren't gonna have the other, especially when AWD is part of the equation.

    And, I'll never understand why some people insist that FWD is just fine and nobody needs AWD..obviously if you don't get it, you don't and never have needed it!! What is so hard to grasp there?

    And if you're going to have AWD, would it not be prudent to help offset the extra fuel costs of AWD by powering it with a diesel? I did not say only offer AWD with the diesel..sheesh... Again..what is so hard to grasp?
    Surely you are not suggesting that you want your cake and eat it too? i.e. Have AWD without any fuel penalty whatsoever?

    Sorry..I didn't know you were kidding.. :confuse:

    edit- It has cost VW sales for not doing it. If AWD wasn't gaining popularity, it would not be found in greater vehicle configurations and price-points every year. What is missing though is the availability of it in lower trims, which I already covered. And don't under estimate the number of people who would like to have AWD, but don't for these three common reasons..
    - it is an extra dollar hit..always
    - it does cost a fuel penalty whether burning oil or gas
    - that dollar hit is compounded by manufacturers foolishly (and greedily for the customers that can anti up anyway) positioning the diesel and/or AWD options in only the highest trim levels which are already at a premium price

    ..so many opt out before even getting outta the gate..
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,950
    edited March 2013
    Sorry, don't agree. For the Mazda6 application it would be expensive and a fuel hit when high MPG is plainly the direction Mazda is going with the new Mazda6.

    No, I haven't raced a performance turbodiesel and have no desire to, just like 99.9% of the people that would be buying the new Mazda6. I don't think Mazda will see a business case for a diesel AWD model. I didn't say that NOBODY would want one or that there was some law against it, just that IMO not enough would want one to justify them marketing it. Could be wrong but just don't see it.

    I'm not underestimating demand in the market for AWD but I'm not overestimating it either. Most of the AWD applications on sedans are on luxury brands where a little extra cost and a couple of MPGs are not that big of deal and they are usually RWD biased except for Audi. Only two out of all the mainstream brands offer AWD on their family sedans. And we are talking family sedans here, not race cars.

    BTW, could you please tone it down a little on the "hard to grasp" stuff? Just trying to have a cordial discussion here.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    Yes, I must just be lucky with my 3 Hyundais, I'm sure all the rest of them are horribly unreliable. :P I must have also been unlucky with my 2000 Mazda 626, which started self-destructing after about 8 years, and my Mazda MPV, which started self-destructing after 7 years. I'm sure all other Mazdas are totally reliable, long-term. ;)

    I saw the 2014 Mazda6 at the auto show today and it's a stunner, especially in the two colors they had on the floor, a steel blue and red. IMO the top car in the class now just based on interior/exterior styling, and the folks at MT obviously think it drives pretty well too. Bigger than I need in my next car, but if I were looking for a new mid-sizer I'd definitely have the base model with 6MT at the top of my list, along with the Accord LX with the 6MT.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,177
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Ya, ok, sorry..

    If I can nutshell my thinking..

    I see this as an opportunity..for someone..

    I've said before that even Kia or Hyundai should venture into those waters..the waters being..an AWD car, not SUV..that would provide car-like handling and ride and economy, which you can't get any SUV to match. And the best way to mitigate or offset the extra running expense of AWD (which is also a torque robber) is to go diesel. It just makes so much much sense to me. But to offset the extra cost of diesel AND the AWD hit, they need to offer it in a base type car, which I just can't imagine how that is so hard for these guys to imagine?

    NOBODY is doing it over here, unless you count Subaru and it doesn't look like they are going to do the diesel thing either, so people are still left for the extra per mile running costs, and noticeably lethargic urge cuz the gas jobs just don't excel when extra work has to be done.

    It's wide-open mkt for one of 'em..I feel it in my bones.

    While off topic, I've also said that Kia/Hyundai should be the first to offer a diesel 2WD and 4x4 small p/u..we KNOW there is a mkt for that and cuz they're dragging their heels..probably Ford will be the first? (using...ironically enough..probably a Mazda engine) since Dodge is already probably getting their V6 diesel to mkt in a half ton but full sized p/u.
    But I digress..people can't buy what isn't offered..
  • m6userm6user Posts: 2,950
    Looks like some Hyundai owners can't take some good natured kidding. ;)

    No car is perfect, no brand is perfect by any means. I'm sure sooner or later something will break on our old Mazda and even your Hyundais will probably have something go wrong. Heck, in the old days, by 95k miles, most cars would have had many problems already. It's a testament to just how good all these cars have gotten in the last 10 years or so.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,177
    1) The new Nissan Altima 3.5 and the Pathfinder 3.5 both have CVT's.

    2) The Optima is offered with a diesel in Europe. A 1.7 with 134 hp and 244 lb-ft. There is talk of offering a higher power version in the US. (160hp).
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    I can take kidding; it's when facts are ignored in deference to hearsay and generalizations not based on fact that I scratch my head.

    Actually had something break on my 9-year-old Elantra... HVAC fan appears to be kaputt. Took it in today for replacement. That's it as far as non-wear parts failing in nine years. Not too bad IMO, especially given that car was designed before Hyundai got onto its quality bent.
  • Just wanted to comment on drivability of these two.
    We own a 2011 Sonata 2.0T. First off it's a great car over all without going into all the details. The one thing that I cannot stand is the steering. From day one it had the infamous "left pull". After many attempts by the dealer to align and rotate and exchange the tires it came down to replacing the front struts. They also preformed a update to the steering. Just drove it to and from Chicago, while it still tracks straight the over all feel is still numb, unresponsive. Yes it has electronic steering and lack of feel is a common complaint with these systems.
    I have driven 3 different 2014 Mazda 6's and it is far more engaging, especially when pushed hard.
    Also both have firm/sport suspensions but the 6 is much less harsh over road seams etc. The 18" low profiles do not help the Sonata's ride but even with 16" rims and snow tires it does not match the more composed Mazda. Granted Mazda has had a couple more years to develop the 6 and I hear a re-fresh is coming from Hyundai.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,677
    I read somewhere that an all-new Sonata is due in early 2014.

    Mazdas are known for good steering feel. I think they use an unusual hybrid system of electric and hydraulic.

    Just got a new 2013 Accord EXL, which also has electric steering in this generation. It doesn't have quite the feel of our 2008 Accord, which has hydraulic steering, but still it's pretty darn good. And the handling is actually slightly better on the new Accord than on the old one imho.

    On one of our daily commutes, a c. 14 mile drive of c. 70% hwy and 30% city, we seem to be getting about 35 mpg on the 2013 Accord. With the 2008 Accord making the same drive we usually got about 27 mpg. Don't know if that's a fluke or not, but if we're really getting 8 more mpg that's a big jump, esp. considering the new car is pretty much just as big on the inside.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,177
    EPS has been numb on almost every review I have read in the past year. Including the new Cayman and the new 3 series, which is heracy inthose circles. It is going to take more than one model year to get it just right.
  • The 2014 Mazda 6 has only electric PS. The Transmission is a hybrid, maybe that's what you were thinking of? The Sonata is a great car, with the twin scroll turbo when you floor it you better have it pointed in the right direction :surprise: I just wish the steering wasn't so flighty.
    I did test drive the new Accord EX and Sport, nice cars. For myself I am leaning towards the new 6 for my next long term ride.
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