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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,179
    The 2.0 turbo is the Fusions go-fast option. As a matter of fact, the 2.0 turbo has become the industry standard. Almost every brand offers one. The Malibu introduced it's turbo a few months back, which is essentially the same engine in the Caddy ATS. BMW offers it standard in the 328 and the 528. Jaguars base XK, and it has become ubiquitous in the Volkswagen Audi group. The flagship A8L has two 2.0T's lashed together at the crank and is now called the 4.0T. Nuff said! TGIF!
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    The flagship A8L has two 2.0T's lashed together at the crank and is now called the 4.0T.

    Wow, so it will be a straight eight? It sure will be smooth, unless they maintain individual block firing orders?? If so it won't even really sound like an 8 :(

    Sure will be a long engine.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,179
    No, it's a V8. LOL.

    From car and driver, May issue, page 112.

    "Think of the Audi A8's new 4.0- liter V8 as a double-dose of Audi's spectacular 2.0 liter turbo 4. Two 211 hp turbo fours fused into one 420 hp twin-turbo V-8 make for a very quick A8L."

    I understand what you mean, but the engine(s) are side by side, not in a row.

    This is nothing new with Volkswagen AG. The VR6 only had one cylinder head and staggered cylinders, more like an inline-6 w/o the length. (so it would fit in 4 cyl engine bay). Also, the W12, which resides in the Bentley Continental, is two VR6's with a common crank.

    If we really want to get into a VW engine, the quad turbo, WR-16 in the Veyron is just insane. It is 4 VR-4's lashed together with a common crank. Thats a lot of moving metal.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    Ahhh right...I thought an inline was a little too out there, given space constraints etc.
    But on the positive side, this config basically ensures a great firing order and the sound of a true 8 cyl engine...which is hard to beat, on the planet we know as Earth..

    Altho..that said that V 16 must sound orgasmic...if you happen to appreciate that sorta thing...and I sure do..

    If you happen to be into bikes?..it is hard to beat a V4 Interceptor with an aftermkt Staintune pipe. At certain revs idling down into town at none blue presence-capturing revs, it sounds a lot like a small block Chevy V8.. The Veyron...of course.. will require a significant extra level of restraint if not to attract db attention by the same blue clad wearing local constabulary.. They have so little humour (humor) when it comes to such visceral commitments to owning and operating such machinery..
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 790
    Hi everyone,

    From the first time I saw a 2011 Optima, I thought they were one of the best looking sedans on the market. I had a 2012 Optima LX rental for a week in Los Angeles last month. It was white with beige interior that seriously needed to be cleaned and it had over 37k miles on the clock. I've been stuck with Corollas, Avengers and Altimas with only 18-20k miles on them. They squeaked, rattled, various control buttons, knobs or levers were broken off or didn't work, the Avenger (my first Avenger and LAST Chrysler rental EVER!) had an electrical shortage that caused all sorts of crazy things. Even the Crapolla felt like it might self-destruct at any moment, and it was a 2010 with 23k miles. I despised every moment I spent in all of them.

    When I saw how many miles the Optima had on it and the stained seats and carpets, a knot formed in the pit of my stomach. It was almost 5pm and I had to fight my way onto the 405 and and I dreaded hitting the first bump because I just knew that every piece of interior trim would squeak and sound as if the car was literally falling apart. I slammed into a pothole before I had a chance to swerve around it and.....after the hard thunk, there was only silence! As I maneuvered in and out of lanes, I realized how tight and solid the Optima still felt, even after 37,000 miles as a rental in Los Angeles!!!

    I am in the market for a new (or new to me) car and my list has just three cars on it, although I am tempted to add the Optima SX-L as a fourth possibility....

    I have narrowed down basically all mid-size cars to the following-

    1) NEW 2013 Mazda6 s Grand Touring (Fireglow Red w/ Tech Pkg)- $32,770 sticker, $24,900 plus TTT

    2) CPO 2010 Acura TSX V6 (Vortex Blue Pearl, 29k miles, 3yr lease turn-in, like new, w/o Tech Pkg) - KBB values it at $27k+ but it has sat on the lot for almost six months and I've got them down to $22,500 + TTT ($24,028 OTD)

    3) NEW 2012 Acura TSX 2.4 Technology- (Vortex Blue Pearl)- $34,005 MSRP, $29,500 + TTT

    4?) NEW 2013 KIA Optima SX Limited - (Titanium Silver) - $35,275 MSRP, $29,975 + TTT

    The SX Limited is truly an impressive car! But my biggest concern would be depreciation, especially in the first year or two.

    As much as I love the 2013 Mazda6 s GT (with the 3.7L V6 and 6-speed auto), depreciation in the first few years is also a huge concern! With a totally new and very attractive 2014 Mazda6 on the market, depreciation will be even worse!

    I'm planning to go back and drive the 2010 TSX V6 again tomorrow. If I enjoy it as much as I did the first time, I will probably be bringing it home with me! If I decide to withdraw $3k from a CD account, which will require an early withdrawal fee and penalty (not much, but a nuisance nonetheless)....but if I get $3k out of the account, I will have enough to pay cash for the TSX!

    The same dealer where I'm planning to buy the CPO 2010 TSX has the one remaining NEW 2012 TSX 2.4 Tech. It is also Vortex Blue Pearl, my favorite of all the colors offered on the TSX! Unlike the CPO 2010 TSX V6, this 2012 has the Tech Pkg which includes Navigation AND the 10-speaker Acura/ELS Premium Audio System (which sounds amazing). If I had never driven the TSX V6, I probably would buy this one and be perfectly content with the 2.4! But I'd rather have the 280hp V6 and CPO Warranties and sacrifice the 10-speaker Acura/ELS Audio, and save $7k also! The Nav System doesn't interest me in the least, so I'm actually glad to not have it taking up a big space in my dash! As much as I would love the 10spkr Audio setup included in the Tech Pkg, I am very happy to report that the standard 7-speaker Audio system in the the 2010 sounds EXCEPTIONAL for a base/standard unit....but on a car that cost $35,500 in 2010, I expected a pretty good standard system and I wasn't disappointned.

    Does anyone think that I shouldn't go with the 2010 TSX V6? If so, why? What do you think is the best choice from my list?
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,680
    edited April 2013
    Looks like you have some great choices.

    My 2 cents: Also test drive a new 2013 Accord Sport or EX. My guess is that you'll find the new Accord to be competitive for performance, quality and even price—if you add in the additional features of the Accord and the sound/power/mpg of the new engines.

    Did the thick rear pillars and blind spots in the Optima bother you at all? If not, that's a fine choice. KIA quality (built in USA) is now equal to the best imho.

    The Acura is a *very* nice car. I considered buying one 3 years ago. You can't go wrong really, but they are kind of pricey.

    The old model of Mazda6 is a good car, and that's a hell of a discount on the old outgoing model.

    But have you seen the all-new 2014 Mazda6? Nicer looking car with better performance, mpg, etc. I think you should test drive that one too.

    Hope you'll keep us up to date on what you decide....
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 790
    Hey benjaminh:

    I actually spent a weekend driving a new 2013 Accord Sport and it would have been close to perfect if not for the CVT! I hate CVTs, but I will admit that the CVT in the Accord is the best one I've ever experienced....worlds ahead of the Altima!

    I also considered an Accord EX-L V6 which has a conventional 6-speed automatic. I was amazed at the power, jaccording to C&D it does 0-60 in 5.6 seconds!!! I had a salesman with me on that test drive and I think I scared the living crap out of him, especially when I stayed on the gas past 60 and it blew past 100mph in another eight seconds (0-100 in 13.9sec).

    The power was amazing and I enjoyed it a little too much! But my biggest issue with all the Accord Sedans (except the Sport) is how BORING they look! I looked at it in every color available, hoping that one might strike a chord and look just right, but it was almost as bad as staring as a Camry!

    I didn't notice any significant blind spots in the Optima and they let me take it out for a few hours on my own. So I drove it for 60 or 70 miles and I really loved the inteior design and quality of materials. I also live in Georgia (born & raised) about 90 minutes away from West Point, where the KIA factory is located. So that would be kind of neat to know my car was build here in my home state. But the 2014 Optima is getting a MMC (mid-model cycle) refresh, so depreciation is a real concern for the 2013 model and the idea of spending $30k on a KIA is still tough to digest. But that Black Nappa leather interior is very impressive!

    I have also seen and driven the 2014 Mazda6! We bought a new 2012 CX-9 Grand Touring about four months ago and I had to take it back for two minor issues in January. I talked them into letting me borrow a 2014 Mazda6 Grand Touring for the day. It was Blue Reflex (smoky blue) with Almond Leather and I liked it very much. It never felt strained or underpowered, but it also didn't have the same kind of thrust as the 2013 model with the 3.7L V6. It also was priced at $32k and they weren't discounting them at all. I am also very leery of buying a first model year of any new design.

    I still love the 2013 Mazda6 s GT, but since we got the CX-9 back in November, I've noticed that they share a lot of interior parts. They have the same steering wheel, same Bose stereo head unit, climate controls, even the display on top of the dash that shows the HVAC settings is almost identical to the one in the 2013 Mazda6!

    I'm still feeling good about going for the 2010 TSX V6. I love everything about the car, from the bold color to the sweet Honda V6 under the hood! Every review I've read mentions that the TSX still uses an 'outdated' 5-speed automatic when everyone else has at least a 6-speed now. But it can hang with the best of them and hit 60 in as little as 5.9 seconds! And it also gets better fuel economy than most competitors....amazing since it has that antiquated 5-speed automatic! =)
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,413
    I owned a 2010 TSX tech w/ 4cyl & 5 speed auto. I loved the smoothness of the engine & how perfectly mated it was to the transmission. Shifts were crisp & in Sport or Manual mode, it will hold a gear to the redline unless you tell it to upshift. I loved the well crafted interior, the taut ride, the thick, bolstered seats. The 2.4 L 201 hp 4cyl is no rocket by any stretch of the imagination, but does get up to speed and hauls nicely on the highway. Just ask the CT State Trooper who nailed me at 81 in a 55 last March.

    I had a Blue TSX V6 (non tech) as a loaner car. I immediately felt the extra (close to) 80 horsepower difference. The 3.5 L V6 is both fast and smooth. Accelerating onto the highway at points where my (4 cyl) would be at 80, I found the V6 to be close (or at) the century mark.

    Too often I felt the V6's 250 lb weight difference over the front axle to be a hinderance. Anything less than gentle throttle application would spin the front tires. I also felt the traction control constantly fighting my steering inputs around tight turns.

    I did prefer the feel of the V6's hydraulic power steering to my 4cyl's lifeless electric power steering (the main reason I traded the car in after only 2 1/2 years & 49,000 miles).

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,614
    Although mostly still speculation, I think I'm going to be happy with mileage for my Fusion.
    First tank was 25mpg(26 displayed) second was 26(27 displayed) third is showing 28.
    The farthest I've driven is about 20 miles one way.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,680
    edited April 2013
    You took an Accord on a test drive to 100?! And still didn't buy it. Yikes. Tough customer.

    Styling is obviously very subjective, but for me the styling of the Accord works because it's so classic (and rather similar to the TSX I think). It's much better than the Camry imho. Pretty profound difference there. But if you don't like it you don't like it—fair enough.

    The quality of the Accord is more than skin deep. Have you seen that it got the highest ratings on the new IIHS crash test? Probably that won't move you either. Having driven a lot of brands in my life—VW (3), Mazda (2), Datsun/Nissan (1), Toyota (1), Oldsmobile (1), Chevy (1), and Honda (3), I've found that for me nothing is as good as a Honda in both the short run and the long run. But obviously everyone gets to have their own favorites. Variety is the spice of life, which is all to the good, and at this point there are a lot of good options.

    The TSX, as you may be aware, is a great car but might be in danger of being phased out. Some Honda/Acura fans at vtec.net have made the case that it's only slightly smaller than the TL,and only slightly larger than the ILX. The all-new TL is due out in about 6 months, and like the new Accord it's supposed to get a bit smaller. Maybe there will be room in the long run in the Acura lineup for the TSX, but I'm just not sure about that. And to state the obvious, you usually take a hit at resale time with a discontinued model. With any Acura that should be minimized, bc I think they have even higher resale values as a percentage of the original prices than most luxe cars.

    Since you love the KIA, and it's made right in your own home state, why not go for it. I don't think it's going to have much of a change next year, which is probably the last for the model. There may even be an all-new Optima in late 2014 as a 2015 model. At least an all new Sonata is expected then, and the Optima is in part based on the Sonata.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Posts: 1,598
    No one can tell you what is the best car for you.

    BUT, do not get hung up on depeciation in the first couple years. If you plan on keeping a car for 5 years, the depreciated value after 5 years is what could cause you concern. The depreciation in the first year or two means nothing, it's how much depreciation is anticipated at the time you plan to sell. And depreciation averaged over 5 years or more is likely to be not much difference per year. If you replace your car every 2 or 3 years depreciation should be considered but so should leasing rather than buying.
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    Plus, most cars' depreciation depends on how close to list price you paid in the first place. Heavily discounted cars will tend to have greater depreciation.

    However, it is usually a wash. If you pay more for it at the beginning, you better damn well expect more on re-sale in 2 or 3 or 5 years. If you were given a several thousand dollar discount at the beginning, then you will get less as well on re-sale.

    I wonder why some people think tying up more of their money at the beginning--in order to get more money on re-sale--is such a draw. More or less, you end up with the same money, whether you take a huge discount at the beginning, or reap a lot of money at re-sale. So, buy what you want and don't worry about re-sale. In most cases, you are out about the same money.
  • igozoomzoomigozoomzoom Waleska, GeorgiaPosts: 790
    I JUST BOUGHT A CAR (which I’ll tell you about first) THEN I have to tell you about the most horrible, insulting and infuriating experience I’ve ever had at a car dealership- AND IT ALSO HAPPENED TODAY!!! Read on to hear the whole story...

    GREAT NEWS- I am now the very happy owner of a beautiful Vortex Blue Acura TSX V6 with only 29k miles on it and like new inside and out! It is fully backed by Acura’s CPO Program including Powertrain Coverage to 100k miles. I love it!

    I only paid $22,500 plus TTT, as we had previously agreed. But I still had to see if I could push a little for just a little bit more...and since we had agreed on the price of $22,500, I couldn’t try to negotiate the price any lower, it wouldn’t be very gentlemanly. Instead, I told them the deal was contingent upon them adding the Rear Decklid Spoiler (including installation) at no additional cost (the spoiler retails for just over $400 and installation usually runs at least $150, so I got an additional $550 value for free)! I also wanted to add the Dark Metal Trim to the steering wheel; center console and door switch trim. I agreed to buy those items at cost if they would install for free!
    The parts were $234, about $180 off retail and I saved $175 in labor.
    I paid $22,500 plus 6.5% TAVT (Georgia now charges a Title Ad Valorem Tax instead of Sales Tax) and $66 for Tag/Title processing, making it $24,028.50 OTD! I paid the $234 for the interior trim package separately....

    I brought the car home with me tonight, but they had to order the Rear Spoiler and the Dark Metal Interior Trim. I’m taking back on Tuesday for those to be installed. They will provide an ILX as a loaner while they’re installing those items. I have never driven the ILX before, so it will be an interesting experience. I feel confident that there will be some similarities compared to the 2013 Civic, but that’s not intended as an insult...just a fact.

    The salesman, sales manager and service manager all made me feel very welcome and and comfortable with my purchase decision! They will provide a loaner vehicle any time I bring my car in for service, which is uncommon these days. The service manager also spent at least 20 minutes discussing my CPO Warranty Coverage and making sure that I was comfortable checking all the vital fluids, etc. They are all very polite, friendly and exceedingly professional. It felt a lot like the time I took my former employer’s Lexus LS460 in for the 60k Service.....but with a little less @ss kissing, which is fine by me!

    SO that is my HAPPY news, but prior to arriving at the Acura dealership, I had one of the most horrible experiences of my entire life and I am still madder than hell!!!

    I decided to go for one more look and test drive in the Optima and the TSX before making a final choice today. I went to the Kia dealer first and the salesman I’ve been working with greeted me and we sat down and chatted for a few. I told him that I would be buying a car today, but I still wasn’t certain which one it would be. Without any further discussion, he grabbed got up and grabbed the keys and tossed them to me. He told me to take it out for as long as it took to help me make my decision.

    I ran to the restroom and headed toward the Optima, when I was intercepted by a fat, sloppy looking man with disheveled hair, an untucked shirt (that was a few sizes too small as well) and he had one of those nasty tobacco pouches between his bottom lip and teeth (like a Skoal Bandit or something)! He introduced himself very forcefully as the New Car Sales Manager and I realized what was going on! He was “The Closer” and it would be all high-pressure from this point forward...

    My salesman had told him I was leaning toward purchasing an Acura and he asked me exactly what I was looking at over at the Acura dealer. I told him it was a CPO 2010 TSX V6 and he didn’t even let me finish speaking before he started insulting the TSX. He said he couldn’t believe I was considering a ‘used’ car over the new Optima, but I told him it was also at least $6000 cheaper. Then he told me that Acura doesn’t ever honor their CPO warranties and he actually argued with me about whether the TSX V6 even existed!!! I pulled it up on my phone to shut him up! Then he said the Optima’s 2.0 Turbo would bury the 3.5L V6 in the TSX. But the TSX is about 0.5sec faster to 60mph, 3-4 seconds faster to 100mph, stops from 60mph 15 feet sooner than the Optima and gets better fuel economy by up to 4mpg on average.

    I told him that I had spent many hours researching both cars and quite a bit of time driving both of them also. I also told him that insulting the Acura would NOT help me make a decision; it would only frustrate and piss me off, making a decision difficult if not impossible! He walked over to the car with me and got in the passenger seat to go with me. I told him that I really needed to be alone to focus on the car and he told me that their insurance prohibited anyone test driving alone! I told him that I had already driven it three times, and the last two times I was alone and kept if for several hours! I also told him that I had signed a ‘loaner’ form on those occasions, assuming liability for causing any damage or injury to anyone else. He said that wasn’t possible under Georgia Insurance Law....I reached into my wallet and pulled out my Property and Casualty Insurance License issued by the State of Georgia which allows me to legally work as an Insurance Agent! He got visibly pissed off, slammed the passenger door and walked away. I was ready to walk back to my CX-9 and make a bit of a scene tearing out of the parking lot (the front tires will roast and make serious smoke if you turn off the Traction Control first then floor the gas....or so I’ve heard.....

    But I decided to drive it over the to Acura dealer, which was about 20 miles away. I parked the cars side by side and asked several of the guys who work there what they thought (some picked the Optima) and even got the input of an older couple who was shopping for a new Acura. I told my salesman what had just happened and he saw that I was still very angry from the experience because my face was red and I was still a bit shaky, not to mention my ‘foul language filter’ wasn’t working and every other word either broke a Commandment or rhymed with ‘truck’!

    He suggested that we write down all the pros and cons, which is something I usually do in a situation like this. Ultimately, even if I liked the Optima just as much as the TSX or even a little better, the real problem was that I no longer felt comfortable at that dealership.....and I had a gut feeling that it would get much worse before it was all over....call me psychic!

    I was gone for almost two hours and I parked the Optima next to my CX-9. I was very tempted to jump in and leave, but my salesman and the @sshole Sales Manager were already outside the door and walking t
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,413
    First & foremost, congrats on your TSX! You'll enjoy years of fun driving & trouble free ownership. You got a really nice car for $22,500. Enjoy it.

    Even if you had liked the KIA better, I wouldn't have bought the optima from that particular dealer. Write a letter to KIA and tell them all the gory details & that your treatment fom this particular gentleman is what ultimately pushed you to ake your decision to buy an Acura.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,680
    Congrats on the car!

    Honda/Acura quality is tops.

    Enjoy the heck out of it, and forget about the jerks as much as possible.
  • Huh, I achieved that mileage from a 2004 Taurus with a V6.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 221
    I think the best thing you could have done is to run from the Kia dealership. It's been my experience that the best treatment you will ever get from a dealership is from the sales office - they have the most to gain. If that was how they treated you, you could simply imagine what to expect from the service department.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,614
    Wow, someone bragging on an ex rental Taurus. :P
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,179
    It took 3 visits for Fairfax Kia Service to get my center console latch fixed, and in the end, they still had to take one off a new (EX) car on the lot. 1 time they broke it more, second time they installed one w/o leather, and third time I went up there I meant business so.....It was just a plastic latch!!! Do I want them fixing lets say, a REAL problem? NO!

    So, I totally understand wanting Honda/Acura sales and service! Congrats! TSX is a good car. C/D likes it too.
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