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Midsize Sedans 2.0

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  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    If you need more than 198 hp to pass an LLC or a slow merger, you need remedial driving lessons.

    Having driven a 130hp Accord (1996) for 9 years, and now a 249hp Sonata V6 (2009), I'll say that you don't NEED the big power, but rather, it's a luxury worth paying for in some instances. I drive 100 miles a day. 84 of that is on 70mph-limited interstate. I'll pay the 3mpg penalty (19/29 vs 22/32 back in 2009) and have the reserve power when I want it. For what it's worth, I tend to stick around 70-72mph, and average 29mpg in daily commuting, 31mpg on trips.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,675
    Am I right in thinking that the 2013 Accord is on your shopping list now? If so, which model?

    You're right that the Accord is more agile in handling than most midsize sedans. The new model has electric steering, which apparently saves on gas, but doesn't give quite as much of a feel for the road at higher speeds imho. But everyone else these days has electric steering too. One of the biggest improvement in the new Accord is that for the first time it's a quiet car. You'll notice a big difference there.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 5,325
    I felt my '03 Accord Coupe LX V6 was very quiet, and very quick.

    No Moon-roof, no leather, just the good stuff. I did have them add real wheels instead of the ugly hubcaps though.

    I saved thousands over the EX and that's all I lost (moon roof and leather).

    The 4-cylinder Accords at the time didn't have nearly as many goodies as the V6's even in EX trim.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,614
    edited July 2013
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,675
    "....Camry sales fell 2 percent from January through June. Meanwhile its main rivals in the midsize car market — the Honda Accord, Nissan Altima and Ford Fusion — posted big gains. The hot-selling Accord trailed Camry in sales by 21,000 at the end of June. Last year at this time the gap was 59,000.

    Toyota has raised discounts and cut the Camry's price in an effort to keep it on top. In early July, the Camry's average sales price was the lowest of the nine top-selling midsize cars, according to data from J.D. Power and Associates obtained by The Associated Press. Discounts on the Camry were among the highest in the segment, according to the data....

    Through June, Toyota sold 207,626 Camrys. But Accord sales rose 21 percent during the same period to 186,860. Altima sales gained nearly 8 percent to 167,787, while Fusion sales rose nearly 19 percent to 161,146. Since January, the Camry's share of the midsize car market has fallen by 1.6 percentage points to 12.6 percent, according to Ward's Automotive. During the same period, the Accord gained 0.5 points to 11.2 percent.

    To combat the falling sales and market share, Toyota has lowered the Camry's price. The Camry on average sold for just over $20,900 in early July, about $1,400 below the price from a year ago, according to the J.D. Power data. Discounts, such as low-interest loans and sweet lease deals, totaled nearly $3,100 per Camry, up almost $1,900 from July of last year and among the highest in the market, according to the data.

    The Accord is rolling off dealer lots even though it sells for roughly $2,600 more than the Camry for an average of $23,500. That includes discounts of only $1,300 per car, the lowest in the market....
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited July 2013
    looks an awful lot like an '06 Hyundai Sonata to most folks.

    BTW, the new Camry failed the offset crash test and Toyota is scurrying to re-design it (their new RAV4 also flunked that test).

    Hyundai quietly upgraded their hybrid Sonata and its 6 speed auto transmission delivers a much more satisfying driving experience than Toyota's fleet of hybrids and their droning CVTs.

    The Sonata passed the offset test.
  • ahightowerahightower DFWPosts: 460
    And Accord does it without any rental or taxi fleet sales.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 221
    edited July 2013
    BTW, the new Camry failed the offset crash test and Toyota is scurrying to re-design it (their new RAV4 also flunked that test).

    Actually, it's worse than it sounds. Toyota asked not to have the partial offset crash test performed on the RAV4 until AFTER they had a chance to redesign it. They redesigned it and then it failed. By publicly asking to wait until the redesign, then failing, they have given themselves a serious credibility issue. For Toyota's sake, I hope the 2014 camry passes that test or they may start to pay the price in terms of sales.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,675
    edited July 2013
    The 2006 Sonata was seen by many to be copying the styling of the Accord. Small point, maybe, but the Accord isn't copying the previous generation's Sonata's styling, but is an evolution of its own styling going back to 1986.

    Some of the razzmatazz styling of some midsize sedans can get to look dated pretty quickly. For instance, the current Sonata is already seeming a little dated to me and some others, while for many people even older Accords have a restrained and classic look that ages well. I think the same will be true of the current model.

    Also, the "coupe-like" styling of some midsize sedans comes with some trade-offs—like poor visibility, big blind spots, and reduced rear headroom. I'm a "form follows function" guy, and so for me the style of the Accord works.

    But some want more racy styling which for them stands out more, and that's fine too.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,681
    Personally I think the back of the new Accord looks a lot like the Genesis sedan, not the last-gen Sonata. Not a bad thing IMO.

    As for the general resemblance of the new Accord to the last-gen Sonata... I don't see it. Maybe a bit in the front (it's a pretty generic front on both cars), but on the side the Accord has a much more pronounced Hofmeister kink than the Sonata.

    I didn't like the look of the 2011 Sonata when it first arrived, but it's grown on me. Maybe because I have one in the family fleet, a 2013 red GLS, mainly my wife's car. I do like it in red/tan. It's been perfect so far, and an enjoyable and comfortable car to drive around town or on the highway. And better-than-EPA FE too, when driven with a light foot.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Personally I think the back of the new Accord looks a lot like the Genesis sedan, not the last-gen Sonata. Not a bad thing IMO.

    Agreed. Both are inoffensive (read: generic), but nice looking. Style isn't a sales point for a midsize car to me.

    image
    image
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    edited July 2013
    One of the biggest improvement in the new Accord is that for the first time it's a quiet car. You'll notice a big difference there.

    My 2009 Sonata is still quieter than the 2013 Accord. Neither is objectionable to me though.

    You're right that the Accord is more agile in handling than most midsize sedans. The new model has electric steering, which apparently saves on gas, but doesn't give quite as much of a feel for the road at higher speeds imho.

    I'm more aware of the suspension tuning in the Accord vs. the Sonata; the Sonata feels a lot less disciplined than the Accord. Steering is quicker in the Honda, but both are relatively numb. It's the new standard these days.

    Am I right in thinking that the 2013 Accord is on your shopping list now? If so, which model?

    For what it's worth, I'm not a "first model-year buyer" simply because I'd rather have the better deal down the road. My vehicles have always been the first year of a mid-cycle refresh, not a full change (1996 Accord, 2006 Accord featuring a big exterior restyle, 2009 Sonata featuring a big interior restyle). The mechanicals have always been solid in these cars, and you have something that differentiates you from the prior years, but pricing isn't for an "all new car."

    When I do look, it will likely be at a Sport or an EX-L 4-cyl (the leather-wrapped wheel is a must-have for me; yes that's a random requirement :) ). I'm not convinced I'll end up in an Accord, but it's on the short list.

    I'll probably replace my Sonata in a year or so; I have 108k miles on it. With my entire immediate family living 300 miles away, I want to keep a car that is new enough I won't second guess my ability to leave town whenever I want.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,675
    edited July 2013
    Your thinking about when to buy a model makes some sense. I'm more random. My first Accord was an LX bought in the summer of 2002, which was the last few months of that design (got a great deal). My next Accord was the 2008, which we still have, which was the first year of the all-new design. But aside from some squeaky brake pads, which were replaced for free by Honda, I've not had any troubles with the car. Our 2013 is similarly the first year of the all-new design, and so far it's been almost perfect, with the exception of a small software glitch in switching between bluetooth and navi that sometimes shows up, and which I presume will have a fix soon.

    Since the late 1990s, as you probably know, the Accord has been on a 5-year design cycle. For instance, there was an all-new Accord in 2003, and then the third year of the model cycle was the great 2006 that you got with the standard led tail lights (that was the best mid-cycle restyle of any Accord generation imho).

    Anyway, by that counting the new Accord won't get a restyle and refresh until model year 2016, which will appear in the late summer of 2015. Can you wait that long? Maybe you can make your Sonata last, or maybe consider a 2014 Accord?
  • gregg_vwgregg_vw Posts: 2,415
    And this will push down the re-sale value of these Camrys. Not that it matters much in most cases. As I have said before, you either pays upfront (with a higher transaction price), or you pays at re-sale (with a lower return), but either way, no one really comes out ahead.
  • fury63fury63 Posts: 18
    I've found the only way to get good MPG out of my Fusion is through cruise control unless I'm really, really conscious of how I'm pressing the accelerator. I can get 30mpg going between 70-74 mph going through the northern plain states (mild hills). If I drop to 65mph I can easily get 33+. Combined is around 28mpg although I do much more highway than city driving. I likes my gas pedal too much in city driving lol.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,665
    Note that this won't change the EPA ratings but it will help drivers get better mileage in the real world.

    It sounds like they had more time to test the new system and decided that they could safely raise the parameters.

    Going to 85 mph on electric power is a shocker. I assumed they were maxed out at 62 mph due to technical limitations.

    The good news is it's available to 2013 owners too.
  • lucien4lucien4 Posts: 55
    85 mpg in EV mode won't help really since it just will drain battery completely quickly. The other improvements though should make some difference.

    To me real world mpg is fine of Fusion hybrid but the 13 gallon tank is very small to get decent range especially since no one really gets 47 mpg combined under normal driving conditions.

    The upcoming Honda Accord hybrid has about 15.9 gallon tank and I'm guessing real world mpg will be higher. Although seats don't fold so each have pro/cons.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,614
    It almost seems like the car could have been tested in the 'new' configuration. Then it was changed to be more conservative, but never retested, just because the change is done as a software reconfiguration.
  • akirbyakirby Posts: 7,665
    That would be illegal. Ford knows better.

    85 mph will help those who do shorter high speed runs with braking in between.
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