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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,680 int.html

    "2. MPG Confusion Will Continue. CAFE's goal is to achieve a 2025 fleet average fuel economy of 49.6 mpg (as expressed by NHTSA). But the test system enshrined by Congress in 1976 cannot adequately capture the benefits of certain fuel-saving and CO2-reducing technologies. To paper this over, regulators established a system of credits, and the use of such credits is what boosts the EPA's CAFE number to the equivalent of 54.5 mpg — the figure usually cited by the administration, members of Congress and the media. This higher figure is what is required to meet the EPA's requirement that tailpipe emissions of CO2 drop 35 percent to 163 grams per mile by 2025.

    The congressionally mandated CAFE tests do more than mask the benefits of certain modern technologies. They're also wildly optimistic. The EPA, NHTSA and everyone in the industry knows this, so a more modern system of tests has been put in place to figure fuel-economy ratings for new-vehicle window stickers. That program is not subject to CAFE's congressional mandate. The 54.5-mpg figure equals about 36 mpg in the EPA's current window-sticker measuring system. So despite what the politicians and headlines say, forget the idea that all cars and trucks will be delivering somewhere around 54.5 mpg 13 years from now. That simply won't happen."
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited August 2013
    Since I know that CAFE is an acronym for Corporate Average Fuel Economy I know the stickers will vary.
    We'll still have trucks and SUVs with MPG ratings in the teens and more hybrids and EVs will be in the fifties and above.

    But auto makers will have to meet the CAFE average.
    That'll be easier for Honda and Hyundai as the former doesn't offer 'real' pickups or large SUVs and the latter sells no pickups at all in the US.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,680
    edited August 2013
    It won't actually be easier for Hyundai and Honda.

    CAFE more or less gives big trucks a "pass" and only has relatively small improvements there. As you'll see in that Edmunds article, vehicles are ranked by class.

    It's all very complicated (900 pages!), but what it seems to boil down to is that the standards are slightly easier for Ford, GM, and Chrysler, because they sell large pickups, and slightly harder for everyone else.

    That's why VW protested the standards and didn't join the voluntary agreement for this.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,680
    edited August 2013
    Understandably, they left room for big powerful pickups in cafe, and so they don't have as much of an increase from 2012 to 2025. I agree with this, actually, because a lot of people and businesses do use their trucks for work.

    For instance, small cars like Corolla and Civic are encouraged to move their EPA sticker combined mpg from 27 in 2012 to 43 by 2025. That's a c.60% increase

    Trucks, like the F-150, are encouraged to move their EPA sticker from 17 in 2012 to 23 by 2025, which is an increase of 35%. And most of that increase is focused in the last few years. Here's how it plays out for large trucks:

    2012: 17
    2014: 18
    2016: 19
    and then it stays at 19 for several years
    2022: 20
    2023: 21
    2024: 22
    2025: 23

    So between 2012 and 2021, a period of 10 years, CAFE only goes up by 2 mpg for F-150s. That's an increase of 12% for a whole decade.

    Between 2012 and 2021, a Corolla is encouraged to go from 27 to 37, which is an increase of 37%.

    Again, I actually mostly agree with this loophole for big trucks, but it is definitely something of a gap in CAFE.

    The current F-150 with the 3.5 Ecoboost that has 360hp and 420lb of torque gets 18mpg.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159

    You did imply CAFE was going to force Honda to drop the V6. This is what you said...The CAFE regs escalate the mpg ratings rapidly in the near future so car makers really don't have a choice

    If car makes don't "have a choice", then they are being forced to make changes. Yes, agreeing to better fuel efficiency regulations does not mean they are being forced to make smaller motors. It just means automakers have agreed to find ways to increase fuel economy. If manufacturers want to go small and add turbo's, then fine. Personally, I don't think that's the way to go.

    Already, automakers are swapping out six-cylinder engines with four-cylinders equipped with a turbo or super charger, which improves economy while maintaining horsepower

    Again, you said this.....Honda will follow Hyundai and Ford and drop the V6 because of fuel economy

    The Accord V6 is not at a power deficit to any boosted I4 engine, and gets the same economy as well. Automakers are swapping out V6s because they have not found a way to maintain economy and power. Honda clearly has.
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,426
    I find the truck exemption to be a joke. The vast majority of pickups (this class includes SUV's) are driven by normal commuters not businesses. It is clearly a concession to the lobbyists for the big three.

    Big trucks are the biggest offenders when it comes to pollution and using up our oil supply - why give them a pass?

    I have no problem with farm and commercially registered vehicles getting an exemption, but why should my neighbor who commutes in a suburban get a pass?

    I do look forward to the higher mpg that the cars will get. It would be nice to reduce fuel expenses.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,663
    If you do look forward to higher mpg then why does it matter what your neighbor drives? He'll be spending more to drive the same distance...if you're worried about the oil supply and the markets adjust to the limited supply he'll be paying even more; it all works out :)
  • dudleyrdudleyr Posts: 3,426
    His (their) overuse of fuel adds to demand which makes prices higher still. If it were a vacuum I wouldn't care, but his actions effect me.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited August 2013
    The new Malibu is going to garner a lot of sales in the mid sized sedan segment.
    While early previews indicate the only engine offered - a 4 cylinder - isn't quite up to the fuel efficiency of the class leading Sonata and Camry 4s, the large 18.5 gallon fuel tank will give this beauty a range comparable to the Sonata hybrids (700 miles) .

    Glad Chevy finally 'got it right.'
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Posts: 3,159
    The new Malibu is going to garner a lot of sales in the mid sized sedan segment.While early previews indicate the only engine offered - a 4 cylinder - isn't quite up to the fuel efficiency of the class leading Sonata and Camry 4s, the large 18.5 gallon fuel tank will give this beauty a range comparable to the Sonata hybrids (700 miles)

    Neither the Sonata or the Camry lead the way with fuel efficiency in this class. The Accord, Altima and Mazda6 all get better city, highway and combined fuel economy.

    Are you instead talking about the hybrid Malibu? In that case, the Mazda6, Altima and Accord get better mileage than that, without any electronic motor assistance.

    With how competitive this segment is and the quality of the top contenders, I don't see the Malibu selling much better than it currently does.
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited August 2013
    More on the Bowtie:
    While mid sized hybrid sedans are becoming more and more numerous as auto makers begin to deal with the stringent new CAFÉ regs, hybrida are virtually absent from the large sedans.

    While a 305 hp, 3.6-liter V6 is available for the new, top rated Chevy Impala, GM is also offering a 182-hp, 2.4-liter four-cylinder hybrid and a 195-hp, 2.5-liter four-cylinder as the cars hit the showrooms. This car will give the class leading Avalon, which also has a hybrid power train, a run for the money but GM’s hybrids still have a way to go to compete with the gasoline-electric leaders, Toyota, Hyundai, and Ford.
  • ivan_99ivan_99 Posts: 1,663
    I suppose...

    There's a lot of politics related to oil supply.

    It's almost like saying; my neighbor purchased an expensive engagement ring, due to the limited supply its driving up costs for my engagement ring!

    Sort of... :)

    De Beers,'ll get the shaft no matter what you buy :)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    I actually had two Accords during college; my 1996 LX 2.2L and my 2006 EX 2.4L. The 1996 was stellar, but the 2006 had some rattles and actually some build quality issues (console lid fabric came off, CD Changer died about 3 years into ownership, rattly/creaky moonroof). I went to The University of Alabama at Birmingham and have always lived in the suburbs of B'ham.

    You and I have been around here a long time!
  • kyrptokyrpto Posts: 216
    edited August 2013
    To thegraduate:
    Have you ever run across Peter Brigham?
    His dad was a dentist from Birmingham who later designed and built two ski resorts; Sugar Mt. in NC and Snowshoe in West Virginia.

    Pete was the first Ski Patrol Director at Snowshoe where I worked as a ski instructor for two years back in the 80s.
    He's been back in B'ham for 'bout 15 years.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,614
    My Titanium is sitting on 30 mpg with just my normal commute.
    29 miles round trip. I have a mile long uphill section a mile from when I leave my house that I drive in 5th gear, so it's not like I'm trying maximize fuel mileage.
    I think there is a technique to driving these cars. Maybe similar to pulse and glide, the same way I drive a stick.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,680

    Op-Ed: Was The 2012 Camry A Stealth Failure?
    By J.Emerson on August 8, 2013

    " 0% financing for 60 months. Up to $2,000 in dealer rebates, most of which winds up going into customers’ pockets. Rental lines bulging with high-trim sedans as dealers desperately attempt to shovel away product and make room for truckloads of new arrivals. Savvy shoppers are shaving three, four, and even five grand off of MSRP as average transaction prices land in the basement for the class. Despite massive inflows of manufacturer cash, sales volume stagnates and declines as competitors grab more and more market share. All in merely the second model year of Toyota’s marquee product, a legendary nameplate with a (supposedly) loyal customer base and years of carefully-crafted reputation. What, pray tell, is going on here?..."
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    What, pray tell, is going on here?

    2013 Honda Accord
    2014 Mazda6
    2013 Ford Fusion
    2013 VW Passat
    2013 Kia Optima
    2013 Nissan Altima
    2013 Hyundai Sonata

    ... all better cars than the Camry, IMO. Heck, maybe even the Malibu is a better car than the Camry!
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 221
    I think this was a hack job. I just looked at the USAA website and compared pricing in my area for the camry and accord. If Toyota is "giving them away" to get rid of them, I would have to ask why is there only about $100 difference in the baseline models and about $600 between top of the line 4 cyl models?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    Based just on advertised prices for Camrys in my area, Toyota IS giving them away. Huge advertised discounts on them, and very low lease prices--much lower than on Accords, for example, even though the MSRPs are pretty close.

    And we all know Toyota sells lots of Camrys to fleets, to keep the sales numbers up there.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,179
    I wonder if autonomous cars will be ready by 2025. I think that will be the beginning of the end for human controlled driving (on many major roads).

    Google, and many respected Universities sponsored by heavyweights in the industry have been driving around the desert since 2004, developing the technology. (Darpa Grand Challenge)

    In 2007, a Volkswagen Passat developed by Stanford University came in 2nd place.
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