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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    Oh Heck no...

    Is it a V6 or I4? For a V6 I wouldn't pay more than $14,500 and for an I4 not a dime more than $13,000.
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    Part of its my fault. I've let her know of my disdain for domestic cars, and have always talked highly of the honda/nissan cars I've owned. When informed that she would probably end up in a ford/GM due to price (she'll pay for it herself, I'll just co-sign) her reaction was more or less "but you said fords arn't any good"

    But my first car was a I4 <100hp 85 1/2 ford escort with a 4spd manual. that was in '89 I think, and I was gratefull to have it. I realy missed it when I totaled it and ended up in a 1981 chevy chevette.
  • mcoctopusmcoctopus Posts: 13

    Edmunds says 16,000. My offer was 15,2 and thinking if I shud up it.
  • waygrabowwaygrabow Posts: 212
    I think dealers try to overcharge significantly on recent model used Honda's and Toyotas, they almost cost as much as a New one!
    It isn't just Honda and Toyota. When I sold my Mazda3 on my own, I noticed dealer ads for used Mazda3's asking as much or more than what I paid for mine when it was new. It was easy for me to undercut the dealers and still get far more than I would have received as a trade in.
  • goodegggoodegg Posts: 905
    I think dealers try to overcharge significantly on recent model used Honda's and Toyotas, they almost cost as much as a New one!

    Welcome to the subprime world in car sales. Its amazing - a guy with weak credit goes in to buy a new Honda. The prime lender says no, but the subprimer says OK to the used one COSTING THE SAME OR MORE as the new one!

    So the guy that has a tough time getting a good loan for various reasons ends up with a costlier loan on an older vehicle. Kinda backwards, but its the way of the world.

    They also use the used vehicles as bait for the new. You say "why would I pay $26,000 for a used one when I can buy the new one for $26,500?".
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,859
    Relating back to a recent thread, this is an interesting choice: a used Camry for which the bumper-to-bumper warranty is expired, probably due for new tires soon (maybe it has new tires?), expensive 60k service due in 22k miles, and the previous-generation design... which was rated by most professional reviewers as behind cars like the Fusion and Sonata... vs. a brand-new mid-sized car like a Fusion, Milan, Sonata, Optima, or even a loaded Elantra (mid-sized interior, compact length) for about the same money. I'd go with the brand-new car (I'm very particular about break-in and maintenance), but if the Camry were Certified with an extended warranty and had all maintenance up to date and new rubber, and was in impeccable comdition, that could make it tougher.
  • oldcemoldcem Posts: 309
    It suggests to me that the people couldn't really afford the car in the first place, nor the proper maintenance needed to keep the cars in service.

  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    yeah, and if you like to ride in a marshmellow on wheels... ok, ok, sorry that's a bit harsh, but really, what do you find appealing about that car? do you like driving at all? or is it just a way to get from point a to b and that's it? granted, my priorities are a little different, but when you consider most other midsize cars are just as reliable over a five year period according to Consumer Reports AND JD Powers, I don't see the appeal of a camry at all. Especially a used one for 16k.
  • zzzoom6zzzoom6 Posts: 425
    On my way home from work, it seemed like everyone was way too impatient to get their holiday started, so there was a lot of really bad driving, much moreso than usual. So I'm driving at 45mph passing cars stopped at a stop light in the lane that goes the opposite way as me, and out pops a bmw making a left turn right in front of me. To my left are all the cars waiting for the light to turn green, and to the right is a concrete wall...nowhere to go. Slam on my brakes and stop 3 feet from a fairly new 3 series bmw and a really freaked out girl sitting in the bmw's passenger seat. My first thought was #$%@^&;*!!!. My second thought was glad I drove a Mazda6 with some of the best brakes in this class.

    So lesson #1... drive safely over the holidays people!!! Expect some really bad driving and be patient.

    And lesson #2... if you're in the market for a new car, remember, good brakes can not only save you the hassle of getting your car fixed and appraised by an adjuster, but it could keep you and others from getting injured.
  • poncho167poncho167 Posts: 1,178
    "She might be happy with her Aura right now.... maybe even for a period of 3 years. But watch out when that warranty expires and the car goes to hell in typical domestic fashion."

    I have owned American domestic vehicles for over 25-years and have never experienced your nightmares. I have seen and heard the same regarding Japanese cars, but instead of calling them names and doubting their quality, I just take it as the one that got away during assembly, or the owners fault at not maintaining it. The same can be said for a Japanese car if not maintained, but the fact that you appear to actually believe what you are saying is pretty sad.
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Posts: 3,855
    When informed that she would probably end up in a ford/GM due to price (she'll pay for it herself, I'll just co-sign) her reaction was more or less "but you said fords arn't any good"

    And what was your response to that, did you admit that you had exxagerated? ;) :D
  • jd10013jd10013 Posts: 779
    yes, I did. I know ford builds pretty good cars now, as do GM and chrysler. My only problem with ford and the other domestic cars are problems I had 15 yrs ago. same held true with my last purchase. I love my altima, but looking at it logicaly, it is pretty hard to justify the extra 2-3k it cost over the fusion. I do think nissan puts a better engine in the altima, and the cvt is very nice, but don't know that it justifies a 2-3 thousand premium.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 6,121
    do not, I repeat, DO NOT do the same mistake my Parents and I did with me.

    I was in a similar situation at 16 with my Dad willing to cough up some dough for a new car, but he put a dollar limit and I had to cover the rest. The dollar limit was a big mistake because it made me think I had to go American to get the most "bang for my buck." And heck, it should be cheaper, there is less shipping costs right? :P

    Anyway, I was thinking horsepower, and fuel economy. I should have been thinking reliability, long term quality, and resale!

    With the lower dollar limit and my not having much money of my own, and thinking I just had to have a NEW car (a used Civic would have been a MUCH better choice, possibly literally a hundred times better choice!). So instead of getting a 2 or 3 year old Civic I got a new '95 Dodge.

    Wow, what a mistake. Do not do the same to your daughter. The few thousand you save now will be gone by year 4 in repair costs and tow truck services. Furthermore, she will be stranded multiple times, which is probably worse for a female than a male.

    Lastly, when she goes to trade it in or sell it privately, she'll curse you and hate you forever when she gets peanuts and sees that the same year Honda is selling for $5-7,000 dollars still. So not only have you spent thousands extra in repair bills vs. the Honda or Toyota, and hundreds in tow truck costs, but then you get the final knockout punch in terrible resale value.

    Also there is the fact that 10% of the year your car is in the shop. Which means she'll be borrowing yours.

    Happened to me.... since my Dodge was worth nothing, and I was still in college and poor, I had to "borrow" that 95 Camry of my parents for a few years until I got on my feet after college. That Camry ran fine and didn't cause me any problems. Parents took it back when I bought 03 Accord Coupe and used it for even a few more years. Then they sold it at like 120K miles for 3,500 dollars.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: US 25 & US 40Posts: 19,795
    >few thousand you save now will be gone by year 4 in repair costs and tow truck services.

    > she'll curse you and hate you forever when she gets peanuts and sees that the same year Honda is selling for $5-7,000 dollars

    >Also there is the fact that 10% of the year your car is in the shop.

    Your exaggerations don't make your post seem credible at all. So you're basing all this "knowledge" on your experience with a Dodge that you chose badly? Have you checked JD Powers ratings on new cars the last several years? There's no difference between most car brands.
  • imidazol97imidazol97 Crossroads of America: US 25 & US 40Posts: 19,795
    >lemon stories are 100 to 1 in terms of quantity with American to Japanese. So the Americans are making 100 times more lemons than the Japanese,

    Everyone explains that the discussion groups attract the complainers. You can't judge the numbers of real problems from a few complainers who post multiple places, multiple times and exaggerate. Some even make up complaints about cars they don't like or feel threatened by to smear their image.

    As for your Dodge, is it possible your transmission was "abused"? I know how some young guys drive...
  • caazcaaz Posts: 209
    Nothing wrong with a 5 yr old Focus....great lil reliable car, you can prob pick it up for 3500 to 5,000...also dodge stratus...chevy Aveo....cobalt...etc..a 6 yr old civiv will still cost you almost 7 grand.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 6,121
    You realize that the Neon is the Dodge I had??????

    Anyway, to call the Neon a good choice or reliable is to call the State Lottery an excellent investment.

    You made my point though with the values you posted, Civic wins by 3K or more even with an extra year of age!
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,982
    to continue off-topic conversation in this discussion. Posts are being removed, as will any further off-topic comments.


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  • louisweilouiswei Posts: 3,717
    I have to agree with andre3 regarding this topic.

    When I went to college in 2000 my parents put a $15,000 limit for me to choose a car. Instead of a brand new compact or domestic I choose a 1997 Honda Accord LX with 36,000 miles on it. When I graduated from grad school in 2006, it had 120,000 miles on it. I handed it to my sister after purchased my current ride (an IS350 :blush: ) and it is still running strong as we speak. During the 6-year period I had the car, besides the routine maintenance the only other unexpected costs are 1. replace the alternator and 2. replace the radiator. Never had any problem with the engine or transmission and this is for imidazol97... I did drive it pretty aggressive ;) .

    With my and my family's own experience, combine with andre3's horror story I just can't come up with a single reason why should I go with anything else other than a Honda or Toyota. Well... BMW might be another alternative when it's time to part away with my IS350. :P
  • caazcaaz Posts: 209
    my Nephew 3 yrs ago bought a 03 for about 6300.00 he put 80k miles on it in 3 yrs...No repairs other than brakes.oil...rubber (tires)....He sold it last month for 5100.00.
  • caazcaaz Posts: 209
    I bought my daughter a 328i for her 16th B-day. he's now 19. We've done the brakes once and oil changes, no other repairs. I paid 8300.00 and could prob still sell it for 6500.00... Its a very very minst 96 328i....still looks new...

    #2 My 2nd daughter recieved a Mustang GT for her 16th...I found a mint 01 with about 80 k miles. She's had it 1 full yr now.....No problems...oil changes only...So it really depends what the condition the car is when you buy it...and how good yopu are at negotiationg
  • urnewsurnews Posts: 668
    a 6 yr old civiv will still cost you almost 7 grand.

    No way would I pay $7,000 for a 6-year-old Civic, a 2001 model.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Posts: 5,751
    "There's no difference between most car brands."

    Other than the fact the Dodge just issued a recall involving Nitros. In my mind there is a difference, and maybe a lot of people also see, hear and feel the difference.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 6,121
    And there's no way I'd pay $1 for a brand new Dodge, let alone a used one!

    But let's get back to the topic of midsize cars, which the Civic, nor the Neon is.
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    There are very few posts regarding the topical vehicles here in the last 24 hours or so. I think all of you remember that the other midsize sedans discussion was shut down because too many people could not stay on topic. It looks to me like we're headed down the same road again.

    I have no plans for a Midsize Sedans 3.0. Any of you who would like this discussion to continue need to be mindful of the subject when you are preparing to post.

    If you have comments you'd like to make about some subject that doesn't belong here, the search features on the left should help you. And either Kirstie or I or any host would be happy to help you find an appropriate discussion, just drop any of us an email.

    But here we are talking about midsize sedans. Period. You are putting your posting privileges at risk by continuing to ignore that. And if too many of you continue to ignore that, you are clearly saying this topic has run its course.
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 6,121
    I don't think Hyundai Sonata's problem is history or reputation. I think their problem is style and substance. They are a bargain basement value vehicle option, plain and simple. They might offer good bang for the buck, but they aren't making the best cars out there in any segment by any stretch of the imagination. Best gas mileage, nope. Best power, nope. Best interior, nope. Best price, yes.

    Any facts to the contrary need sources and explanations, I never heard of the Sonata having class leading mileage.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,859
    Seven years ago I might have gone the used Accord route also. But now it's 2007 and the mid-sized sedan market is much different, with many fine choices. For example, when I was at the Mazda dealer the other day having my van serviced, I noticed that the no-haggle price on a 2007 Mazda6i Special Value Edition (17" alloys, sport package, CD changer, power seat etc.) was about $16k. Great looking car, great driving car, brand new, full factory warranty, free oil changes for life (from this dealer). I've seen Milans and Fusions advertised at $15k recently, and Sonatas under $14k. So nowadays I'd tend to go the new car route if I had $15-16k to spend on a car, unless I needed something above the mid-sized sedan class e.g. a minivan (which btw I bought used as a 2002 last year for only $12.5k with a 100k bumper-to-bumper zero-deductible warranty, MSRP was twice that, and the interior looked like the van had never been driven).
  • andres3andres3 CAPosts: 6,121
    Great looking car, great driving car, brand new, full factory warranty,

    It should be noted that Mazda slashed their "full factory warranty" term by 25% in both mileage and years for 2007.

    So with cheaper prices comes "we don't stand behind our product anymore."

    The dealer's explanation at the Mazda in Southern California was not holding water for me, he said "If Honda and Toyota can do it, why can't Mazda?"

    LOL, I can think of a lot of red circle reasons. I'm not saying Mazda doesn't make good vehicles, but I don't think they are at Honda/Toyota league levels. If I was considering a Mazda6, I'd want the longer warranty.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,859
    I am having this feeling of deja vu, all over again. :confuse:

    Here is the link noting the Sonata being #1 in fuel economy in its EPA class:

    Also, the Sonata leads the mid-sized class in interior room. Note on the following page, none of the other cars are in the mid-sized class (EPA classes are by interior volume, meaning Accord, Camry, and all the rest of the cars we are discussing here have less interior volume than the Sonata):

    Also, the Sonata has more standard safety equipment than any other car in the mid-sized class we are discussing here. It's the only car from this discussion with standard ABS, ESC, side airbags and curtains, four-wheel disc brakes, and active front head restraints standard on all trim lines.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,859
    If you are looking for a long warranty in the mid-sized class, check out the Galant, Optima, or Sonata--all have a 5/60k bumper-to-bumper warranty and 10/100k powertrain warranty.

    I guess you could also say that, with the higher prices of Accords and Camrys comes "we don't stand behind our products", given their relatively short warranties.
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