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Midsize Sedans 2.0



  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    How do you know Mazda isn't making a profit on the Mazda6?

    From what I see in my area, Mazda dealers aren't offering big incentives on the new Mazda6 yet. But you can get HUGE incentives to buy an Optima or Sonata or Accord or Camry or Fusion or Malibu or 200 or... just about everything else in this class.

    If Mazda can keep the profit margin per car up there, they can make a profit on the car even with a low sales volume. To make $1 million, you can for example sell 10,000 cars for a $100 profit each, or 1000 cars for $1000 profit each. It's $1 million either way.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,177
    edited November 2013
    I never said it wasn't profitable. I said I have not seen many, and posted Septembers sales figures which explains why.

    I don't know if Mazda is making a profit on the 6 or not. Mazda had to completely develop the car from the ground up, which costs a fortune. So, they may be making a profit per car, but not as a whole. It is fortunate that the CX-5 and the 3 share the platform

    I am pulling for Mazda. It has a sedan rated number 1 by Car & Driver and Automobile Magazine, beating all comers, it delivers the Zoom-Zoom drivers have been promised, yet sales seem to not reflect the goodness of this car.

    The one area where the mags agree is that the well-put-together interior doesn't deliver the technological bang that some of the others do. However, my Optima has a similar driver - friendly dash layout that is built around the driver, just like the 6. I dunno; I mean wouldn't you think that the 6 would be outselling my car by now guys?
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,177
    edited November 2013
    Only the LX and EX Optima have a fixed height passenger seat. You will have no problem with the SX and SX-L. They do cost more though, but this is a great time of year to negotiate a great deal. Even better on the day after X-Mas.

    It depends on what interior colors you get on the Mazda. Personally, I really like the Mazda's interior as a drivers car. It is all business and not much flash...but it is very well put together. I drove the Touring about 7 months ago, and after that what I wished for was that my car steered like the 6. Also, the 6 chassis was less "rubbery" feeling than the Optima. On the other hand, my 2.4 liter felt stronger than the Mazda's in the mid range. Both my car and the Mazda have 6 speed autos. Here is Mazda's GT interior: - 09.html

    I like the Accord too, and even though it has a few strips of plasti-luminum trim the rest of the interior is otherwise very nicely done. Here is the Sport interior: - 01.html
    Also loving the Sport's dual pipes, 18" rims, and the wing, but not the CVT. I like the blue color on the Accord hands down.

    Tough choices.
  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    It's not $1 million either way. Not even close. You are forgetting the hundreds of millions of dollars of capital you would need to build 10,000 cars, just to make a measley $1 milliion profit. You wouldn't even get a Mazda3 as your severance package if you were the CFO :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    It was an over-simplified example of how you don't need to sell 400,000 cars of one model per year to make a profit on them. I'm a summa [non-permissible content removed] laude MBA grad and know how companies make money. I just didn't think I needed to go into the excruciating details in this case, since this a discussion about cars and not corporate finances.
  • cskicski West Springfield, VAPosts: 1,177
    edited November 2013
    Frankly we need to stop the personal attacks. I am all for a healthy discussion, and at times tempers will flare. There are about 6 or 8 of us that represent the board, and no one will post if they see us attacking each other. We could use a few newbies.


    We are all salesmen! How many cars do you think we have sold just by posting facts figures and experiences? At least you guys would get a real dealership. With Kia, I would get stuck in an old Suzuki/Geo trailer behind backy's Hyundai dealership....My business cards would have "KIA" taped over "GEO" with my name scrawled in pencil. Claaaaasssssyyyy!


    With that said, have a good weekend!! :shades:
  • gee22gee22 Posts: 82
    Need not get so defensive. I would have framed it more like say, comparing GM with Subaru. GM sure didn't make it up in volume :)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    Hey, don't forget my Kia and Mazda dealerships! I don't want those guys to feel left out! :)

    And btw, it's a really nice Kia dealership, no Suzuki/Geo trailer here. It's a former Saturn place, pretty hi-tech in appearance. Seems to fit well with the European styling theme Kias have at present.

    But I don't have my Mazda6 right now. Some unmentionable walloped it while it was sitting in a parking lot. Hit and run of course. So I'm in a Cruze rental for awhile. Pretty decent little car.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    You're right. No need to get defensive when someone pretty much calls you an idiot. Shame on me.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,614
    From Ford press release:

    Fusion sales of 21,740 vehicles jumped 71 percent year-over-year, making it the car’s best-ever sales performance for October.
    The strongest growth for Fusion is in the west region of the U.S., with retail sales up 77 percent. In the eastern region of the country, Fusion retail sales are up 65 percent.
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,675
    Camry 29,144
    Accord 25,162
    Altima 21,785
    Fusion 21,740
    Sonata 19,872
    Malibu 15,746
    Optima 11,492
    200 8,348
    Passat 7,258
    Avenger 5,406
    Mazda6 3,100
    Legacy 3,090
  • benjaminhbenjaminh Posts: 1,675
    Camry: 348,134
    Accord: 307,264
    Altima: 271,303
    Fusion: 248,033
    Sonata: 172,574
    Malibu: 170,696
    Optima: 135,548
    200: 111,207
    Passat: 91,522
    Avenger: 85,005
    Mazda6: 35,632
    Legacy: 36,441
  • ab348ab348 Dartmouth, Nova Scotia, CanadaPosts: 1,741
    Several have commented that when they open the door of the 6 it's all over. I am not so sure.

    There are several interiors right now that all seem like variations on the same theme. The Fusion, the Sonata, and to some extent the Altima all have some similar themes. Accord and Camry are unique, some may think in a good way. Optima is also unique, but not necessarily in a good way. The Mazda strikes me as a more traditional or conservative design, but not necessarily a bad one. I saw one with the light-colored leather and quite liked it overall. The main thing for me that works against it is that the styling leaves the rear compartment feeling claustrophobic, with small window openings. But points to Mazda for offering a brighter trim choice than the ubiquitous and depressing all-black, and not copying the current dash design cliche.

    2011 Buick Regal Turbo, 1968 Oldsmobile Cutlass S Holiday Coupe

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,682
    I don't see what the angst over the Mazda6's interior is either. The dash design reminds me of some rather pricey European cars. Maybe the materials quality isn't on par with those cars, but the Mazda6 starts in the low $20s, not the $40s.

    But I also don't see any similarity whatsoever between the interior design of the Sonata and that of the Altima. Fusion, maybe, but executed quite differently.

    Camry is definitely unique... but NOT in a good way, IMO. I'm not crazy about the Accord's dash either, but at least it's better than the Camry's. I like the design of the Optima's dash. It's a bit retro, but nicely executed.

    The Mazda6 isn't the only current mid-sized car with small rear windows. The Sonata in particular is guilty of that, but I think a light (tan) interior alleviates the claustrophobia. The Fusion's are pretty small too. Doesn't seem to be hurting sales too much, as previous posts attest.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,398
    I find it amazing that Toyota continues to sell so many Camrys. Look at the numbers. YTD, it takes Toyota about 5 weeks to sell as many Legacys as Subaru does all year.

    2001 Honda Prelude Type SH/ 2011 BMW 328xi / 2011 Honda Pilot EX-L w/ Navigation

  • scwmcanscwmcan Niagara, CanadaPosts: 393
    Mazda doesn't have to production volume to sell as many 6's as Kia sells optima's, maybe that can change a bit when the new factory comes on line for the 3. I am pretty sure they are happier with the 3100 cars this year than they were with the 1900 or so they sold last year this time. Would they like to sell more, probably, but they are building them for the whole world at the same plant so they are production limited at the moment at least.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Central CTPosts: 9,614
    Camry sales are pretty much flat from last year.
    The competitors are up, so that means it's losing market share.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    All I said was that you found this issue in each of three testers! If all three exhibited this issue (which, yes, I have heard of previously) I stand by my initial reaction which struck me as an exaggeration. Consider what the odds are that you found three in what I interpret to be a relatively short period of time. If this issue was widespread enough to support your findings, I would think that Nissan would have been all over this to a much greater degree. Certainly any dealership that allows three testers in such a short period of time to allow an issue as serious as this to reveal itself, is negligent at the very least.
  • crkyolfrtcrkyolfrt Posts: 2,345
    edited November 2013
    Same here. I have my issues with Mazda on some levels, but I respect their out-of-the-box thinking with engine design. I'm staying tuned to see longevity reports on the SkyActive tech, as one example.

    I like that they aren't associated with Ford any more. Ford was an anchor.
  • wayne21wayne21 Posts: 221
    After experiencing the airbag light and lugging (stuttering) in the Altima I went to the Altima forums. Those were two of the major gripes people had about their altimas and there was no shortage of those complaints. Interestingly enough, Nissan had a recall on the airbag light indicating no airbag for the passenger, but many of the people experienced the very same problem after the recall repair. Two of the altimas that I drove had build dates that were after the date set for the recall - when the "fix" was applied at the factory. I think they have a problem on their hands that they haven't fixed and I'm not remotely interested in driving a car with no airbag for the passenger. The lugging (stuttering) is a complaint for the 4 and 6 cyl altimas - just as it is for the cvt on the accord forums. I'm a cash buyer and it takes me a while to save $25-$35k so I'm picky. I acknowledge that. But if I'm going to spend that much money I feel I can be picky. Perhaps I will move up a class of cars to the genesis sedan or something comparable. Wife and I were talking about this this evening and I mentioned the Avalon. We are in our mid 50s and my wife said she wasn't remotely interested in an Avalon because it's an old person's car. How old, I asked. Someone in their 70s was her response. Having lived in Florida for a long time I think her statement has a lot of credibility. We're not in a hurry, but when we find what we want we'll know it and we'll buy it.
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