Howdy, Stranger!

It looks like you're new here. If you want to get involved, click one of these buttons!





2008 Minivans

1121315171841

Comments

  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    There is no such thing as triple-time in the auto industry. Double is as high as it gets and that's only for Sundays and holidays, when most of the plants are shut down and only maintenance personnel are working.

    I don't know where you're getting your info at, but I have neighbors and friends working at plants here in Detroit and could name names, getting double and triple time. Guys getting in a 6am, driving a hilo for a few hours, then skipping out with sup's approval to got boating in the afternoon. Smoking inside an enclosed space like an SUV is wrong.

    I doubt very much Honda or Toyota would put up with that behaviour ONCE, as they're not protected by antiquated unions.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    Which is the Canadian minivan and which are Japanese ones?

    Chrysler is headquarted in the USA and T&C / GC are made in Fenton, Missouri, USA; and in Windsor, Ontario, Canada.

    Toyota is headquartered in Japan but the Sienna is made in Indiana, USA.

    Honda is headquartered in Japan but the Odyssey is made in Alabama, USA after being made in Ontario, Canada for years.


    But where is the billions of dollars in profits going? Are they staying here and creating jobs for other Americans? Does it help strengthen our dollar and cut our balance of trade?
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    But where is the billions of dollars in profits going? Are they staying here and creating jobs for other Americans? Does it help strengthen our dollar and cut our balance of trade?

    Don't forget about investment in capital, tooling, and technology. It takes a lot of time and money to develop a new vehicle...money spent on tooling new components like engines, trannys, LED lighting, seating etc....
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Which begs another question: "Where are the billions of dollars in loses coming from" when a company is losing money? :confuse:
  • tedebeartedebear Posts: 832
    I don't know where you're getting your info at, but I have neighbors and friends working at plants here in Detroit and could name names, getting double and triple time. Guys getting in a 6am, driving a hilo for a few hours, then skipping out with sup's approval to got boating in the afternoon. Smoking inside an enclosed space like an SUV is wrong

    I am a UAW employee. I'm not a production worker but we are all covered by the same national contract as far as wages are concerned. There is no such thing as triple time.

    Some workers imply that they are getting triple time on holidays because everyone gets 8 hours holiday pay, whether they work that day or not. Then, if you work that day, you get double time in addition to that. That's not the same as triple time.

    Also, if someone goes in, works a few hours and then leaves they are taken off the clock and their pay stops at that point. It's all a matter of if going boating in the afternoon is worth more than the money you'll lose by taking off work.

    I agree that smoking in a customer's vehicle is wrong. I guarantee that if a supervisor caught someone doing it in the plant I am associated with the person would get some time off. Smoking is not permitted at all inside our plant, much less a customer's vehicle.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    Which begs another question: "Where are the billions of dollars in loses coming from" when a company is losing money?

    Invester's stocks and bonds. Employee's 401-K and IRA's.

    Anyone know where all their 401-K's and IRA's are invested in?
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Posts: 508
    Exactly. You won't see that at Honda and Toyota because the inmates aren't running the asylum.

    As for R&D, maybe some of you are finally getting it. Because of years of capitulation to big labor, the Big Three aren't able to invest the same as Toyota, Honda, and now Hyundai on R&D, and the end results are inferior products. Not to say that Detroit isn't capable of putting out decent cars, of course.

    My larger point is that fundamentally, I'm a free market guy. I've changed as I've gotten older (and I'm not old, I'm still in my 20s!) Four or five years ago, I would only buy American out of that sense of guilt. But I've been left stranded and abused (literally actually) by an American company that I finally got driven to Toyota, and I haven't looked back. I'm not longer convinced its the "right" thing to do, in fact I feel like by settling for inferiority, I'm basically enabling a flawed industry that needs drastic reformation.
  • tedebeartedebear Posts: 832
    As for R&D, maybe some of you are finally getting it. Because of years of capitulation to big labor, the Big Three aren't able to invest the same as Toyota, Honda, and now Hyundai on R&D

    It's called corporate greed. GM management complains that they are losing $1,500 per vehicle because of higher labor costs than Toyota. However, that doesn't keep the top executives at GM from averaging 250x more money per year in salary and bonuses than their average production worker.

    I read a statistic recently that said if GM would go back to the 60s, where the top executive salary was "just" 20x more than the average worker, they would turn that $1,500 loss per vehicle into a $1,000 profit.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    I'm going to carry this over to the other thread (Minivan Shopping - Domestic vs. Foreign) where it belongs. Wish they had an open forum for this.
  • Karen_CMKaren_CM Posts: 5,014
    The Auto News board would be the best place to start a new discussion. You might want to look through the current topics as there may be something already suitable.

    Automotive News & Views

    Community Manager If you have any questions or concerns about the Forums, send me an email, karen@edmunds.com, or click on my screen name to send a personal message.

  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Note the LED pipe lighting :) Same as the new Chryslers

    future minivan
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    As of 11am, UAW is on strike against Chrysler. Likely will delay the arrival of the 2008s, so it might hit them where it hurts.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Gosh that is hideous. The outside looks like they slapped a new front end on the old Ford Aerostar! :sick:

    Plus, that only seats 6, my Sienna seats 8. This is progress?

    Mood lighting has been in many concepts before, and I doubt that would make production.

    I like the 4 DVD screens and the center console, and the 2nd row seats remind me of the LS460L's.

    I'll pass, though, too much pseudo-luxury and not enough utility.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    That does look sharp.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    YES. I may decide to buy another Toyota if they will eliminate the console between the front seats. :shades:
  • carcom2carcom2 Posts: 212
    It does look cool. If I were to get DVD players I actually would prefer them on the back of the headrests - easier on the neck and it doesn't interfere with the view through the rear view mirror.

    Fully reclining seats are excellent. Don't know why Chrysler doesn't have it in 2008's. They come in handy when you pull over to a rest area.

    Keep this stuff coming on this Toyota. Any idea yet on if it will be in the US?
  • samnoesamnoe Posts: 731
    Reading all the comments here, makes me more clear what I've said somewhere above. Chrysler did a stupid thing that they did not finish up competing all the way. The new minivan is beautiful, for the most part.

    What else would they need? Well, first of all, the 4.0L engine & 6-speed tranny in ALL trim levels - at least optional. (and at least optional on Touring - the best selling version, not just on Limited!)

    Second, the seating. Offer 8-passenger seating, the stow 'n' go seats should sit higher and flatter, not as angled, and so should be the 3rd row - like ALL OTHER minivans does, they give you much higher seating position and much more cargo space behind it.

    Next, comes the interior quality and some design decisions, as giving oversize a/c vents and lower the temperature controls to an unacceptable position.

    A lot of old goddies they used to offer on pre-2003 model years are still missing and haven't came back yet. Like the heated grid at the windshield wipers (many other vans have it - they copied from Chrysler!); illuminated glove box(es); illuminated ignition key ring; illuminated visor mirrors with variable brightness; and some other minor stuff. I also hate the gear selector position. The old column shifter is about 100 times more convenient and easier to use IMO.

    I do like the beautiful interior LED lighting (if you haven't seen it yet, go out and give it a look, it's beautiful); I also like that the audio controls on the steering wheel remains the same design as before, in the back of the wheel - I think it's very clever (I hate the oversized steering wheel, though, It should be a little smaller, as on Toyota/Honda vans) - I also like that they changed the trunk opening handle - not "electrical" anymore as it was before. - I also love that you can "override" the power sliding doors. No other minivan does it as good.

    I hate that with most options, you must take leather seating and/or DVD entertainment. These 2 options has to be 2 independent options IMO. Not everyone have children, and not everyone wants their children to watch DVD's or TV when traveling.

    I love the extra large interior door handles, and the "Grab Pulls" which is very good on the Chrysler - but not good on the Dodge - why did they choose different designs? I like when your fingers can go "thru" - so the tip of your fingers can touch the palm of your hand when pulling/closing the front door. I also like the numerous storage bins on the front doors. And the bigger size exterior mirrors.
  • I realize that each minivan has its pros and cons. But as far as quality and best value. Which one does anyone suggest I looked at Honda, Toyota, Kia and Chevrolet Uplander.
    Please help I am so confused and should I get 2007 or will there be better prices for 2008. When is BEST time to shop for these vans

    THANKS A DESPERATE & CONFUSED MOM
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    It depends on what you are looking for.

    Honda Odyssey - handles best, most like a sedan. Rides harsher than competitors. Not the cheapest out there either.

    Toyota Sienna - rides smooth, doesn't handle nearly as well as the Odyssey. Can be expensive depending on options. Fastest minivan on the market.

    Kia Sedona - Major Value here, good 3.8L V6 engine standard on all trim levels, a few cheap touches but overall an excellent contender.

    I'd avoid the Uplander. It is an outdated design based on the old Chevrolet Venture van. It is mainly relegated to rental-car lots these days.

    Take a look at the Chrysler vans too. They are new for 2008.

    Have you gone and actually sat in and tested these vans? You should do so and form your own opinions instead of using others'. My idea of comfort may not be yours.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    thegraduate gave EXCELLENT advice to which I would add "Rent one if possible so you can drive it more than the average test drive".

    Check each van in bright daylight and also at night. After looking and sitting in all minivans at the Annual Auto Show each year, we narrowed it down to Odyssey, Sienna, and T&C/GC. Two different Honda salesmen gave us the keys and told us to drive the Odyssey. :shades: (All others had the salesman go with us.)
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    Second, the seating. Offer 8-passenger seating, the stow 'n' go seats should sit higher and flatter, not as angled, and so should be the 3rd row - like ALL OTHER minivans does, they give you much higher seating position and much more cargo space behind it.

    I think the design of the stow-n-go seating is determined mostly by how they have to fit in the storage bins. I would think especially height. Not sure if that would also have to be the reason for the angle of the seat too.

    As for 8 passenger seating, not sure how that would work, unless they had a bench seat that went all the way across, which would mean redesigning the storage wells and redesigning one seat to fold over to get in the rear seats. Unless of course they did away with the storage bins. Not sure there is enough demand for eight passenger seating to do all that.

    Remember, Chrysler has to be competitive in their pricing and the imports already have over a $3,000. advantage on them in profit, per vehicle. Probably also why you don't get the bigger engine and six speed on all lines.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    I remember Chrysler doing extensive market research for 8 passenger seating and AWD, and the market wasn't there for these items. I also heard the reason for angled seating is a safety issue and keeping passengers in their seats, and kids now slipping under belts?
  • bobw3bobw3 Posts: 2,997
    That I doubt. I'm guessing they angle the seats simply because the seats are lower to the floor and without the angle, your knees would be up in the air with zero support.
  • artgpoartgpo Posts: 483
    Here is a list of the latest (last week) of the most (un)reliable minivans from the largest consumer magazine, the one that does not accept advertising. I did not include the scores because I do not want to violate the copyright laws. Only the Sienna and Odyssey had good scores (the Sienna was double that of the Odyssey) all the rest were sub par. The Chrysler models were the best of the worst.

    Make and model


    Toyota Sienna
    Honda Odyssey
    ------------------------------
    Chrysler Town & Country (2007)
    Dodge Grand Caravan (2007)
    Kia Sedona
    Nissan Quest
    Hyundai Entourage*
    Chevrolet Uplander (-146%)
  • carcom2carcom2 Posts: 212
    I always take those magazines "ratings" with a grain of salt. My grades with my vehicles have always been higher than their category grades. Maybe that is in part due to proper maintenance - just the usual stuff, nothing overboard.
    My low mileage- 103K- '97 Grand Caravan Sport still drives great. The interior materials, seat fabric, dash are all in excellent condition. Recently replaced a 5 yr old battery. The car has not been garaged for the last 3+ yrs. Still have original engine & transmission. So, based on my actual ownership of the GC, I think it's been a great vehicle, very reliable and am strongly considering a 2008 T&C Limited over the Sienna which I drove last week. Don't like the interior of the Ody dash, so wouldn't buy it although the seats are very nice.
    You think it's just because Dodge/Chrysler has sold more minivans, that you see many more of their older vans on the road still today VS the Ody or Sienna? I occasionally see the Previa and hardly ever an old Ody.
  • bobw3bobw3 Posts: 2,997
    Reliability and quality are hard to measure. Even though you might have statistics that show one vehicle is better than another, you'll always have lots of conflicting stories.

    The problem is that the measurements are always comparisons versus individual statistics. So we hear that the Odyssey is more reliable that the Caravan but not how much more or what is the difference.

    It could be that with the Odyssey, 95% of them will go to 100,000 miles with less than $1000 worth of repairs, while with the Caravan, it's only 90%. And 80% of Odysseys and only 70% of Caravans will reach 100,000 miles with less than $100 worth of repairs. In both cases you can accurately state that the Odyssey is more reliable (if only we could get such statistics like this that meant something!!). But on the other hand, you'll have 70% of Caravan owners saying, "Hey, my Caravan has been trouble-free for the past 100,000 miles, so how can you say my van isn't reliable."

    So when you see the red circles and black circles, or some other generic Good, Fair, Excellent rating you have to ask yourself what's the real difference and what percent of all vehicles we're talking about.

    You may have 3 good vehicles all close in true reliability (which I define as dollars spent over miles driven) but in a ranking there has to be a number 1 and a number 3. If someone can show me stats broken down into $$/mile, then I'd be impressed but until then, I'd just use these ratings as a guide in addition to your own experience.
  • bobw3bobw3 Posts: 2,997
    Is the 3rd row of the Caravan's seat as angled as shown in this link?? Hard to imagine being able to sit in that seat and reach the table, especially for kids in booster seats. It also looks tough to climb out of that seat.

    http://www.allpar.com/model/m/2008-minivans.html
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    I know when I got my "survey" from CR a few years back, I started filling it out, gave up halfway thru and tossed it. So my completely trouble free 2005 Caravan isn't accounted for. Also, I see how fair they are every time a new issue comes out - filled with photos of japanese cars on the cover, lead of articles etc... Ohh and lets not forget the controversy a few months back when CR tested full size pickups, and got caught!!!

    When I think of it, none of my cars ever rated highly with them, but they did with me. Thinking there's no bias at CR is like news anchors being non-partisan and being able to be fair...yeah right!!!!
  • bobw3bobw3 Posts: 2,997
    When I think of it, none of my cars ever rated highly with them, but they did with me. Thinking there's no bias at CR is like news anchors being non-partisan and being able to be fair...yeah right!!!!

    If you think they're biased, tell me what is their motive?
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    CR is NOT RECOMMENDED for purchase due to biased writing unsupported by their own research. :lemon:
This discussion has been closed.