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2008 Minivans

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  • artgpoartgpo Posts: 483
    This past weekend I rented a 2008 Sebring from Dollar. The Sebring had 5,997 miles when I took it out. The transmission literally downshifted into first with a very noticeable slam. This was reminiscent of the transmissions on my bought back by Chrysler 1993 Intrepid and its replacement 1994 Grand Caravan. The car roared and had a most unpleasant back seat. Is this Chrysler's best effort at matching the Accord and Camry? I have been castigated by some on here because I made negative Chrysler comments, I maintain that Chrysler's quality is still sub-par and certainly not even close to that of Honda, Toyota, Hyundai or Kia. One of the best ways to evaluate a new car is to rent one and drive it for several days which we did. It only served to underscore why I would never own another Chrysler product.

    Consumer Reports is unbiased and tells it like THEY see it. I have has issues with CR in the past based on their evaluations. Their Frequency of Repair charts are based on real world experience of owners such as myself.
  • Look at all these caps, underlines, faces, bold. To bad they don't have a crayon for you to color on your post as well.

    Back to my other question. What happens when the door welds fail after the 5 years or 100k? Are the customers SOL? Obviously it is a design flaw and should it not be covered for as long as you own the vehicle? It is the same situation with the Ody's transmissions. Many customers are leaving Honda and swear they will never buy another because of forking out thousands for the new tranny which has the same design flaw. Anyway, I understand you love your CR. I do like most of what they say in contradiction to your sweeping statements of how biased I am against them. Personally, I have come to the conclusion that they rate Japanese vehicle higher then they should. If you do not agree just say so and don't pretend you are the presenter of "truth". You don't work for them or test drive and rate the vehicles yourself. I hardly think anyone qualifies you as authoritative on the subject.

    By the way passion is an emotion... so hence emotional...
  • I agree that of course a first hand experience is best way to evaluate but lets be honest in we all know how abused rentals are. Unless you are getting the vehicle brand new we have no idea how it was driven and raced or manually shifted in very negative ways. I know personally I will never buy a vehicle that was a rental in its infantry. Like growing up with parents that were crack heads. No offense to any crack babies out there...
  • thegraduatethegraduate Posts: 9,731
    Yep, we all know how many people rent and race minivans. ;)
  • He rented a Sebring if you look. Though I hardly think it matters. I know I personally don't treat a rental the same as my own, don't know about you.
  • By the way the recall or "warranty enhancement" as they call it is for 600,000 Sienna's which is just a tad more then 6. I think this issue is a bit larger then the vibration problem some Sedona/Entourage owners have had.
  • artgpoartgpo Posts: 483
    My message said that the transmission did exactly what my 1993 Intrepid's tranny did. As I was the only owner of that brand new Intrepid and knew I did not abuse the tranny your claim seems invalid. If what you say is true then every rental car should buck and wheeze down the road. I bought a used Hertz rental for my wife and it ran trouble free for years, same for one my brother-in-law purchased. Rentals tend to have better maintenance than the average privately owned car.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    The envelope which contained the warranty extension has in BIG RED LETTERS across the envelope which reads:

    2004 THROUGH 2007 TOYOTA SIENNA DOOR CHECK
    MOUNTING PANEL WARRANTY ENHANCEMENT


    The letter inside reads:
    "2004 THROUGH 2007 MODEL YEAR SIENNA FRONT DOOR CHECK MOUNTING PANEL WARRANTY ENHANCEMENT NOTIFICATION"

    Is it impossible to understand the exact quote directly from the mailing I received from Toyota...or is Toyota LYING in the mailing sent to me? :sick:

    ALL the information I have written is contained in the mailing I received with return address on envelope
    Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc,
    Owner Notification Processing Center
    No General Correspondence
    P.O. Box 710367, San Diego, CA 92171-0367

    The address contained on the letter inside the envelope is:
    Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.
    19001 South Western Avenue
    P.O. Box 2991
    Torrance, CA 90509-2991
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    The letter has at the bottom right corner;

    "Spanish translation on reverse side
    Traduccion en espanol en el reverso

    And on the reverse side is return address:
    Toyota Motor Sales, U.S.A., Inc.
    19001 South Western Avenue
    P.O. Box 2991
    Torrance, CA 90509-2991

    Under the address the following is written in large, black letters:

    NOTIFICACION SOBRE LA AMPLIACION DE LA GARANTIA DEL PANEL DE MONTAJE DE LA TRABA DE LA PUERTA DELANTERA PARA EL SIENNA, MODELOS 2004 A 2007

    (except there are Spanish language accent marks that are not on my computer)
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Save your breath here. Some people on here would bash domestic OEMs til they're blue in the face based on a bad experience 30 years ago, or based on someone else's bad experience - not even their own! They'll make broad sweeping allegations like "it shifts like my other POC brand I owned 15 years ago". They can accuse you of biases against CR, while denying their own biases. As I've listed numerous times....the biases are so obvioius with CR. Pick up almost any issue and rarely do you see a domestic car on the cover, go to the start of their auto articles and see what pics you see? Note that they can approve any totally redesigned Japanese car based on prior history but let an OEM slap a new bumper on their car, and even if the previous version had an average rating (which is a major accomplishment), the slightly new model is too new to rate? Look at the recent Pickup issue where they slammed GM's new trucks by not equipping them same as the Tundra (or they would have won). There's an ongoing bias with CR but some just want to ignore it cause it supports their biases!

    You must kneel at the alter of CR, stare at the little red dots and chant "ummmmm Japanese cars are great ummmmm" and you will find the inner peace you desire!!
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    How much faith can you really have in Consumers Report? Or at least people being honest in reporting their vehicles. When you look at the ratings of Toyota for instance, all you see is red dots and glaring reports on how good they are. Pretty much the same on all Japanese vehicles. But do we ever hear about things like this? Why is it that these things never seem to come out in CR or the news? Americans are making some pretty darn good vehicles now, but they get little credit for it.

    Do we want to put the American automotive industry out of business and increase our debt? I mean we have already flooded the world with our dollars that have sank the value of it to new lows. Maybe it's times to look at what America has to offer again. You might be surprised at how good they are.

    Toyota recalled more vehicles than it sold in the U.S. last year

    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1753099/posts

    The Mitsubishi Motors recall cover up is a corporate scandal

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:DeLarge/recall
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Or at least people being honest in reporting their vehicles.

    I got me first CR survey after buying my 2005 Dodge Minivan....though I think it was because of my membership in CR (which my parents give me for xmas every year). I was the most difficult booklet to fill out, I started in good faith and after about page 4 said enough is enough! So my totally trouble free vehicle isn't represented for sure, but then, I don't need CR to feel good about my purchase.
  • Here here! I also have had some excellent experiences with American manufactures. My Mustang GT has been awesome. My first Car an 80 Olds Cutlass Supreme was a great car for the time I owned it, I had a Saturn SL2 for a while which I traded at 186,000 without any problems to mention a few. I purchased my Sedona for my wife because of price and features. When I looked at the Caravan in late 06 I did not like the lack of features but now the new Grand Caravan is much better. I have met many many people who get close to 200,000 miles on Caravans without major problems.
  • maryh3maryh3 Posts: 263
    My beef with CR is that they are making judgments about reliability and quality for new cars. The truth is that we won't know reliability and design problems or quality issues associated with certain cars until they get some mileage and years behind them. It wasn't fair to give that glowing review of the Odyssey for years when the model was new. Most cars don't have problems until after 50,000 miles or so. I don't know how anyone can rate a model less than 5 years old. I'm not at all surprised by the Odyssey transmission showing major defects now because they now have enough miles on them to earn the reputation Chrysler earned back in the mid 1990's.

    The other things CR tests are definitely a matter of taste. I like my cushy, quiet, ultra smooth, soft steering Town and Country. The CR reviewers do not. They prefer the Japanese feel in their cars. I can't say one is better than the other -- its a matter of personal taste. I remember years ago CR reviewed fast food. They raved and raved about McDonalds chocolate shakes (not even milkshakes in those days). I found the older pre-real ice cream McDonalds shakes gross. To each his own.

    In general you are better making your own inquiries and observations. I made a mistake a few years ago by buying a front loading washer. CR says that the front loading washing machines are better than their top loading counterparts. They say the front loader washers are easier on the clothes and put less wear and tear on the clothes because they don't have an agitator to pull, twist and wear on the clothes. Prior to purchasing I wish I listened to a friend who told me she was disappointed in her front loader because it did not clean the clothes as well as her older top loader. I did not listen. Now I find I have paid substantially more for a washer that does not clean the clothes very well. And I have never lost any clothes due to them being worn out by a washer. CR's observations were worthless.

    My observations about the Kia's is that you get a lot for your money. They are too new and have too few miles on them for me to make any observations about reliability or design. There are several insecure minivan owners on these board who need to constantly reassure each other that they have not erred in their auto purchases. Be happy with your Kia and relax. CR can't possibly have any significant amount of data from which to draw any conclusions about your van. I spent yeara thinking my van was a POC until it kept racking up the miles problem free.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    How can you have the kind of problems Toyota is having and not have it show in CR? Why isn't it even carried in most of the papers? Even the Japanese government is threatening to sue Toyota for the cover up of recalls.

    My Brother had a 2001 Plymouth minivan he bought new. He just traded it in this year for a 2006 Dodge minivan. Only problem he had in six years was a freeze plug and brakes needed replacing.

    I have a 2005 Dodge GC. In 39 months, the only problem I have had, and it just started, is the rear hatch latch is sticking, not allowing the motor to lift the tailgate up. It doesn't happen all the time and I am going to put some graphite on it first before taking it in to see if that doesn't clear up the problem.

    My Sister has a 2006 Chrysler minivan that has already made two round trips out here to Arizona, from Ohio ( over 8,000 miles) and has no problems with hers yet with over 35,000 miles on it.

    My family wouldn't by these vans if they were junk and had a lot of problems. My Brother sure wouldn't buy another if he had a lot of problems with the first one.

    Stow and go is a fantastic idea. Mine has been a work horse for me. From moving my daughter, to carrying electric wheel chairs and scooters for my Mom and other Sister. After three years, it still looks great. We own a Honda Civic, so it's not that I don't like foreign vehicles. I'm just telling it like it is.

    http://www.carspace.com/marine2/Albums/marine2%27s%20Album/HPIM0133.JPG/page/pho- to.html#pic
  • dbtdbt Posts: 298
    "How much faith can you really have in Consumers Report? Or at least people being honest in reporting their vehicles. When you look at the ratings of Toyota for instance, all you see is red dots and glaring reports on how good they are. Pretty much the same on all Japanese vehicles."

    If you check CR, you'll see they've withdrawn recommendations of Toyota products due to the problems you cited which they've seen documented in their surveys. Their surveys aren't perfect, but they're pretty good information, and frequently tend to be consistent with broader trends.

    "My beef with CR is that they are making judgments about reliability and quality for new cars.
    ...
    In general you are better making your own inquiries and observations.

    I made a mistake a few years ago by buying a front loading washer. CR says that the front loading washing machines are better ... Prior to purchasing I wish I listened to a friend who told me she was disappointed in her front loader because it did not clean the clothes as well as her older top loader. I did not listen. Now I find I have paid substantially more for a washer that does not clean the clothes very well. ... CR's observations were worthless."


    Ahh, it's wrong for CR to make judgments, but perfectly fine for you to? Fine for you to judge CR's reliability estimates on the basis of your personal experience with one front-load washer? I don't understand your logic here.

    CR is one source for reliability information (there are others), and also for testing information. Scrutinize them as you would any source.

    And now, back to minivans ... :)

    How has the swivel-n-go worked out for those using it?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    If you check CR, you'll see they've withdrawn recommendations of Toyota products due to the problems you cited which they've seen documented in their surveys. Their surveys aren't perfect, but they're pretty good information, and frequently tend to be consistent with broader trends.

    Thanks for stating this better than I could.

    I never said I loved CR. I was playing Devil's Advocate when they were attacked and criticized of bias. The example given proved the opposite - CR in fact did rate the Body Hardware poorly for the 2004 Sienna.

    The funny thing is that bogus claim ended up having the opposite effect from what was intended - it showed that CR was not biased, at least in this specific example - the door weld issue was reflected accurately in their scores.

    As dbt put it, they "frequently tend to be consistent with broader trends".

    Indeed.

    The 600,000 vs. 6 comparison is absurd. Potential number of vans affected doesn't mean 600,000 were affected. They're just being covered if there is a problem. Have it inspected at 99k miles. If the problem has not appeared by then, it likely never will. This is just common sense.

    As for the Entourage/Sedona vibration/shimmy issue, they've issued TSBs (who knows how many vans are covered), but the problem still has not been fixed for many Edmunds members. To me that is a bigger concern - it's unresolved.

    Back to the van discussion - my 2007 wasn't included, nor were the 2008 models. So if you're shopping for a new van today, there are no major issues to be concerned about.

    No van is perfect, of course not, nobody made that claim.
  • maryh3maryh3 Posts: 263
    Nobody said CR is wrong to make judgments, it is their livelihood to do so. But since they actually make money by making judgments, I trust myself more than I do them. I know what I like better than they do and I trust what I observe as far as reliability goes. I simply find CR judgments worthless, irrelevant and differing from reality.

    As this poster, like myself, has experienced similar observations of reality vs CR, I responded to him telling him not to worry about what CR says about his Kia - they don't know what they are talking about IMO. You are welcome to regard their judgments and let them influence your purchases but my post wasn't directed toward you. In general I believe people would be happier with their purchases if they used their own observations and asked real people they know who own the product how they like it. Some may disagree, it is their option to do so.

    In general, it is hard to dispute somebodies experience and I think it is a mistake to do so with most issues in life. My front-loader washer poorer cleaning observations have been echoed by several women I know using several brands. I know what I see - clothes that look dirty even after washing on the super-cycle, pre-wash, stain-treat program that lasts 1:40 for 1 load. Wish I listened to people I know and trust instead of strangers.

    Back to minivans. Don't have my swivel seat van yet so I can't comment.
  • maryh3maryh3 Posts: 263
    In their time - CR gave good recommendations for the Oddy, when, as I pointed out, they had little mileage on them. It wasn't until this:

    http://www.hondatransmissionsettlement.com/php/pdf/caht1faq.pdf

    that they had to acknowledge "issues". Unfortunately it is hard to know what to expect from an auto until they are tested out in the field for a few years. CR should be used for hindsight - not foresight.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    I have a 2005 Dodge GC. In 39 months, the only problem I have had, and it just started, is the rear hatch latch is sticking, not allowing the motor to lift the tailgate up. It doesn't happen all the time and I am going to put some graphite on it first before taking it in to see if that doesn't clear up the problem.

    I went to the store this morning and bought some Mr. Zip, extra fine graphite, and that seems to fix my latch problem on my rear hatch. So it's 39 months and counting with no problems to take it back to the dealer for.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    How many miles do you now have on your 39 month old GC SXT? What is your fuel economy?

    (My 2006 Sienna LE gets slightly better gas mileage than my 2002 T&C LX 3.3L got.) :shades:
  • artgpoartgpo Posts: 483
    What do you believe in, little green men? I owned almost nothing but American cars and minivans (4 American minivans from 1993 - 2005). Only one was was a POC and that one was a Chrysler product. The other Chrysler products I owned were also junk as was the 2008 Sebring I just drove for three days.

    You don't believe CR and you bash owners such as myself without knowing me or the FACTS. Every American mini I have owned: GM x 2 and Ford excepting the Dodge were excellent. I owned many American cars as well so why do you say I "bash" American vehicles? I state unemotional facts to try and help people avoid buying a new Chrysler rolling piece of junk. You get SO emotional and personal.

    Back off dude and let the information freely flow without insults, racial slurs and innuendo so people can make their own mind up on 2008 minivans.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    How many miles do you now have on your 39 month old GC SXT? What is your fuel economy?

    (My 2006 Sienna LE gets slightly better gas mileage than my 2002 T&C LX 3.3L got.)


    I have 42,000 on my 2005 and using a calculator and not the overhead computer, I get around 17 MPG city and the highest I got on a trip to California, from Arizona was 23.9mpg. Never have been able to go on a full tank without crossing mountains so not sure what I could get on flat land.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Looking at some of the details, dbt was on to something:

    For the Ody, CR gives them below average scores up until the 2003 model, any one want to guess what category?

    Transmissions.

    So not only does CR score these Japanese-brand vans poorly in those categories, they happen to be the ones you guys keep bringing up.

    Honestly, you should stop saying CR is biased, and jump on the CR bandwagon and complement them for accurately pointing out that these Japan-brand minivans are far from perfect! LOL
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    What do you believe in, little green men? I owned almost nothing but American cars and minivans (4 American minivans from 1993 - 2005). Only one was was a POC and that one was a Chrysler product. The other Chrysler products I owned were also junk as was the 2008 Sebring I just drove for three days.

    I doubt anyone on this board has own more Chrysler products than I have. Going all the way back to a used 41 Plymouth and a 48 Chrysler New Yorker. My last two were a 2001Dodge Dakota PU I traded for the 2005 minivan. We had a 1993 Eagle Vision we traded for our 2004 Honda Civic. The Eagle was one of the best cars we ever owned. The only ones we had any real problems with was a 1975 Plymouth and a 1954 Chrysler. I have also owned a Duster, New Yorker, Neon and Charger.

    I have the 2008 CR Buyers guide. If you look at yours, see if they have any blacks spots on the 2004-2006 Tundra and the 2004 -2006-7 Sequoia. Toyota has had a lot of problems with those, especially with the suspension's lower ball joints. But they don't show that in their latest addition. They don't tell about all the recalls on Toyotas and the recalls Toyota should have made on many of their models and didn't. Why? They have had time to update their scores on them, but haven't. Here Toyota has recalled in one year, more carsand trucks than they built. But you'd never know it looking at CR
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    As a matter of fact, in the 2008 CR Buyers Guide, they rate the 2008 Toyota Sequoia. as above average in dependability even though they have had troubles for at least six years with steering and ball joint problems. How do they know the 2008 will be any different than the 2002-2007's? Which they still do not recognize the problem. from 2004-2007
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    Now again using the CR Buying Guide, (Rating the 2008 Models.) On page 149, they don't even list the Dodge/Chrysler minivans, under (Minivans) Why? Under (Wagons and Hatchbacks), on the same page, they list the Dodge Caliber, and say it is a new model under predicted reliability and new, under owner satisfaction. But they don't even list the best selling minivans on the market for 2008 under (Minivans)? And then say they aren't biased against American?

    I remember when I looked at CR after I bought my 2005. They had practly nothing good to say about it. Worse than average predictability. I haven't had it in the shop once in 38 months. Talked about how slow it was compared to Honda and Toyota although it was only about 1.8 seconds slower in the quarter mile than the Honda. They said the instrument panel was (busy) What the heck does that mean? There is nothing wrong with the instrument panel. Everything is laid out pretty easy to get at and simple. Not as nice looking as the Honda and Toyota, but (Busy)?
  • carcom2carcom2 Posts: 212
    For those that don't think your top load washer washes as well as a side loader, have you used the High Efficiency detergent recommended for the newer top loaders. Some manuf. are requiring it to not void out the warranty I've been told. The HE stuff works better for those HE machines. Our top loader cleans great.

    CR, wether sometimes biased or not, just like our opinions even when trying to be as objective as possible, doesn't always have info. matching our own experience. It's just another tool that you may or may not consider to make your decision. Use your brain. I've had much better experience with all 3 Dodge/Chrysler products we currently own compared to CR ratings. And like them better than the Ford/Mercury stuff of the past. When I've looked at CR "black dots" in some categories, they did not coincide with my actual experience at all. I have had no regrets at all buying these 3 - 2005 300C, 2002 Intrepid, 1997 Grand Caravan.

    Anyway, for all you complainer and also the optimists, seems like you should check out the Chrysler website accolades from Popular Mechanics, Popular Science and others:

    http://www.chrysler.com/en/2008/town_country/accolades/awards/
  • artgpoartgpo Posts: 483
    Once again personal experience/observation trumps CR. Just remember, opinion is like a rectum, everyone has one including CR and we posters to these boards.

    Having owned many minivans I qualify for having seven opinions (rectums?). Would I buy another VW or Chrysler? HECK NO! I am glad to see VW teaming up with Chrysler because the baby of that marriage will undoubtedly be the most black dotted model in CR's minivan history.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    As to that 2nd article, the issue is that public perception lags a few years behind reality.

    Many domestics have indeed improved, look at the CR ratings for the Fusion for instance. The public perception will catch up about 4-5 years from now.

    They still have the Taurus fresh in their memories.
This discussion has been closed.