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2008 Minivans

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Comments

  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    The T&C with the tow package includes the self leveling rear suspension and I thought it drove much better and the steering feedback was much better than the GC.

    What baffles me a little is the tow rating, 3500 lbs? My 2005 was rated at 3800 lbs with tow package...and has smaller engine?

    I'd love to see a Diesel version on the market, I'm hearing that'll happen in 2009 for Chrysler, and rumors of a Honda Ody for 2010?
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    T&C is a BETTER minivan for the money. Each has advantages and disadvantages. I like the Toyota dealer and salesman but the Sienna is a disappointment because it is overpriced. :shades:
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Let me repeat what I said before, because it's obvious, you didn't understand me

    Actually, I understood you completely.

    Legacy costs are precisely the "excuses" I was referring to before. To call yourself the best van there is no room for excuses. That was my whole point!

    Edmunds' van was $39k and change. Now we see another stickering for $41k plus. These are not the value-priced vans that the outgoing ones were!

    Edmunds compared the new 4.0l/6 speed to the outgoing 2007 Honda JC35 engine, which is being updated for 2008. It's already more efficient and should only increase that advantage.

    That arrives for model year 2008, I believe, same as the new Chryslers.

    It's a moving target. To be best you need continuous improvement.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    It's a moving target. To be best you need continuous improvement.

    Disagree. To stay the best you need constant improvement. But you can be the best one year and not the next. This year it's Chrysler's turn.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Wonder if you factor in the Chrysler warranty, what the savings would be?

    keep your car for 225,000
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    Interesting how the NEW Chrysler features are called "gimmicky" by the Honda-Toyota fanatics until they appear years later on an Odyssey or Sienna.

    It is also faster to just open or close the sliding doors manually on either a Sienna or an Odyssey than to wait for the power feature to open or close the doors. :shades:

    My Sienna is a BIG, costly disappointment. I will be glad to get back into a Chrysler. :shades:
  • hause7hause7 Posts: 153
    Why do you say your Sienna is a BIG costly disappointment? i hated our 99 and 05 T&C, both were garbage...sorry. We are thinking of trading our 04 Sienna in for an 08 sienna with that nice 3.5L V6.
  • Consumer Reports has customer survey dots showing the best & worst problems. Chrysler's boxes show alot of black ones, where as Honda Odyssey & Toyota Sienna show mostly red ones.

    Don't mention Odyssey transmissions to me. I have a 2002 Odyssey with 175,000 kms on it. I also have NOT had any mechanical problems. :)

    If you are thinking about buying a Chrysler product maybe you should wait a year so that any bugs in these new Chrysler minivans are worked out and have consumer reports show alot more red dots.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    If you are thinking about buying a Chrysler product maybe you should wait a year so that any bugs in these new Chrysler minivans are worked out and have consumer reports show alot more red dots.

    That could be a smart move, as these 2008 minivans are new from the ground up. Plus, Chrysler is coming out with a whole new line of V-6 engines in the next year or two.They also have some new innovations to their new six speed automatic transmission.

    The Phoenix engines were first discussed by "superduckie" way back in March 2006. “ask1919” wrote in April, “Phoenix will be a collection of V6 engines to replace the whole line.” oh20, whose track record has been 100% accurate on such breakthroughs as the Caliber and Sebring, wrote in July 2006 that the engines would include the following. (list updated May 2007). As of this last writing, all will have variable valve timing and some will even have multiple displacement, which is rare in a V6.

    Chrysler wrote that: “The new Phoenix of V-6 engines will feature cylinder deactivation (MDS). Specifically, this means the engine will operate efficiently on three cylinders when less power is needed, and in V-6 mode when more power is needed. This optimizes fuel economy when V-6 power is not required – without sacrificing vehicle performance or capability.

    “The new family of V-6 engines will feature an aluminum die cast block, dual variable valve timing (VVT) and a two-stage oil pump, among other technologies. The end result is an expected across-the-board V-6 fuel efficiency improvement of six to eight percent – in addition to new levels of V-6 power, performance and refinement.”

    It would seem Chrysler has no intention of letting up on Honda and Toyota in their minivan market.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    That could be a smart move, as these 2008 minivans are new from the ground up.

    The 4.0 V6 is based on the multivalve 3.5 V6 that's been around a few years. This same 4.0 V6/6 spd auto has been used in the 07 Pacifica for the past year without problem.

    I don't put much credit into CR's little black dots. I've compared them to my 05 DCX van and have yet to have any of their problems. I had a Chevy Cavalier that I put 180k very trouble free miles on, when CR said I should have bought a Honda or Toyota. Their recent comparison of the Chevy and Toyota pickup was so skewed to Toyota, so plainly biased....it was pathetic for CR!! Pick up any issue of CR and note what cars pics are always blastered their cover or lead page of articles....Japanese! Ohhh sure, they "balance" out the pics in the individual writeups but all additional pics are [non-permissible content removed], even if they do happen to approve a domestic model as a token gesture.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    The rear suspension is not fully independent. Honda wins there, period. No argument there. Toyota still uses a torsion beam as well, so both are well behind Honda in this regard.

    Actually my ex is a chasis engineer for GM, he's now in Australia working for Holden. If you get him talking, he'll tell you there's plus and minuses for both suspensions, and it's not strictly a cost issue. A Toyota/Chrysler system with coils and torsion beam is preferred if you're towing anything....it tracks truer, provides better control. The Honda's wishbones will give a better overall ride but most people wouldn't notice it unless you live on a rutted road someplace.

    The same for pushrods. Many of the [non-permissible content removed] engines show impressive figures on paper but for example Torque is generated much higher in RPM band.

    Sure, the 08 Dodge van is an improvement over the very outdated 07 vans (the 2nd row windows didn't even open). But we're not comparing those.

    Now there's a "ice cream topping"....2nd row windows tha open!! How many people you see driving around with windows opened anymore? I'd rather stow n go seats, or power rear hatch, or power folding seats, or knee airbags, or back up camera... Things you can get on any DCX van, in any combination, that you can't on any other minivan.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    It's only ice cream topping when the other side has it and you don't. I remember reading all those posts on how everyone loved the GPS on the Honda and made fun of the little screen on the Dodge. Now Dodge not only has a nice GPS screen that is voice activated, but can watch DVD's on it too, when not driving.

    As for the rear suspension. I think as long as the ride is smooth and stable, who is going to care what kind of suspension it has? I mean no one seems to care that Chrysler has self leveling shocks on the their vans and Honda doesn't.
  • bobw3bobw3 Posts: 2,997
    I think the below article says it all, and I quoted the final paragraphs. As a driver, I'll take the Odyssey, although all the kids in the back may like a Grand Caravan more.

    From the article: http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=122398

    "One Winner, but It's Close
    Dodge has built its best minivan ever in the new Grand Caravan. It's quick, comfortable, innovative. And with so many versions and so many options it's sure to deliver exactly what so many buyers are looking for. It's clearly...the second-best van on the market.

    The Honda Odyssey, however, is still the best of the breed, and the best for breeders. It's quiet, beautifully finished and well equipped. It also handles better than some sedans and is the only minivan that could be considered a driver's car. It's the one Dad can drive without feeling like Mom.

    And it's bound to get even better. For 2008 the Odyssey will receive a long list of revisions, including the adoption of Honda's second generation VCM cylinder cutoff system to improve fuel mileage. And the rest of minivandom continues to play catch-up."
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    you can be the best one year and not the next. This year it's Chrysler's turn.

    Each of us will have a unique opinion, but I agree with Ward's and still think the Toyota 2GR V6 is the only minivan power mill among the 10 Best. More HP and more MPG.

    Nice to see Chrysler is working on MDS and VVT.

    dennis: not to dismiss your positive experience but you're comparing a sample of one vs. a sample of over 1000 (their minimum for each model to publish results) for Consumer Reports. I'll go with the 1000+, no offense.

    Torsion beams are compact and cheap, those are the 2 primary reasons they are used. These vans tow 3500 lbs, no more than Honda does.

    Check out the Toyota 2GR V6's torque curve, you don't think that's flat? Check out the low rpm torque. It's the one on the right.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    The Honda Odyssey, however, is still the best of the breed, and the best for breeders.

    LOLOLOL....just noticed "Breeders", there's only certain types of guys who use this term!!!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    To be very, very clear...

    Ice Cream Toppings are OPTIONS, folks.

    Things you get in the standard, base van are not ice cream toppings.

    Things like windows that open in the 2nd row come in the base van. They are not options. All models have them.

    I use them any time my kids are saying good bye to friends or family, so basically often.

    I don't even understand this last paragraph:

    I'd rather stow n go seats, or power rear hatch, or power folding seats, or knee airbags, or back up camera... Things you can get on any DCX van, in any combination, that you can't on any other minivan.

    Just about every van out there has a power rear hatch, you say "can't on any other"?! Huh?

    Same thing for backup cameras. All the vans I test drove had those.

    Can't on any? That doesn't make sense.

    Toyota had power folding seats way back in 2004.

    You need to get out more often. Have you even looked at a Sienna? :confuse:

    Chrysler deserves kudos for the Stow-n-Go, Swivel-n-Go, self-leveling rear suspension, and 6 speed auto.

    I'll give them kudos for the knee air bags if and only if their crash tests scores beat the competition, we'll have to wait and see on that one.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    According to Consumer Reports' survey of owners, 79% of Sienna owners would buy the car again compared to 49% of Chrysler Town & Country owners.

    hansienna falls in the 21% of Sienna owners that will buy something else next time. He is in the minority, and he's very vocal for whatever reason.

    Ask 2 Dodge/Chrysler owners and on average 1 of those 2 will tell you the same thing.

    Bottom line is Sienna owners are happier on average.

    Hopefully the Dodge numbers will improve substantially with the arrival of the 2008 models.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Just about every van out there has a power rear hatch, you say "can't on any other"?! Huh?

    What I meant is Chrysler offers greater flexibility in adding options, whereas, with a Honda for example, you don't get a power hatch unless you get the top of the line. You can't add it to your LX or EX model. What about a DVD system in a Honda LX? Or you're an elderly couple with limited $$$ and have a hard time opening and closing doors/hatches?

    I get out quite often, and looked at and test drove all minivans prior to buying my DCX. Hopefully you comprehend my explanation above now?

    When it comes to airbags, test scores by some govt agency isn't the only thing that matters to me in deciding if I need a certain type of protection of not. Knee bags have been proven effective in keeping passengers in place in accidents instead of possibly sliding under the IP during an impact. The more airbags, the better....not topping.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    OK, now I get what you were trying to say. Dodge offers the most flexibility in terms of ordering options for even base models. Gotcha.

    Toyota is better than Honda, but the trade-off is Honda's simplicity, i.e. it's very easy to know what you are getting. This actually annoys a lot of people, you need a PhD to understand all the options packages on Toyota/Dodge vans.

    I agree that air bags are not just a topping, but one would hope it's effective at actually making the vehicle safer.

    The reason I'm skeptical on the knee air bags is that the Kia Sportage got them and still had a lousy performance in crash tests. Hopefully Dodge implemented them better.
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    One of the nicest features of the Dodge/Chrysler for the parents, is their new LCD screen, which not only operates voice activated navigation, shows what's behind you when backing up, but you can also watch video on it when parked and it has a 20 gig hard drive to store, play and show pictures and MP3 music files. Add on to that their506 watt surround sound audio system, with sub-woofer and you have your home entertainment system, on wheels. A great option for any vehicle
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It might be useful for us to list what is unique about each of these 3 vans. I'll start, please feel free to add things I forgot to mention.

    Dodge has Stow-n-Go, Swivel-n-Go, self-leveling rear suspension, Satellite TV, power folding 3rd row, 6 speed auto, and lifetime powertrain warranty.

    Honda has VCM, rear mutli-link suspension and run-flats.

    Toyota has power folding 3rd row, AWD, HIDs, run-flats, Direct Injection for the engine, power 3rd row vent windows, 3rd row that can tailgate, 8 seat model, Bluetooth, Laser Cruise Control, tow prep package standard, turn signal in the mirrors, telescoping wheel, auto express button moonroof, auto dimming driver's side mirror, fold flat passenger seat, 2 in glass antennae, 2 115 power outlets, battery saver.

    Let me know what I missed. I own a Sienna so that's the one I know best, obviously.

    And yes, for those wondering, now you can layer on all the ice cream toppings you want. It's all you can eat. :shades:
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    The reason I'm skeptical on the knee air bags is that the Kia Sportage got them and still had a lousy performance in crash tests. Hopefully Dodge implemented them better.

    Realize there's more to safety than airbags, probably most important is the driver themself, followed by body structure.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    Check out the Toyota 2GR V6's torque curve, you don't think that's flat? Check out the low rpm torque. It's the one on the right.

    But look at the RPMs, 4800???
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    Well you missed a heck of a lot on the Dodge/Chrysler. They also have a moon roof, front dash video, sub woofer, halo lighting,pinpoint LED lighting to read, rechargable flashlight, two glove boxes, Two screen DVD's, that can play two different programs or games. Cruise control, adjustable peddles, flex-fuel capability, tire pressure monitoring, industry-first integrated child booster seat, a voice-activated navigation system with real-time traffic, ParkSense® rear back-up system. Automatic one touch folding rear seat, 3rd row that can tailgate, front and middle heated seats. Driver and passenger eight way power seats. Dual- or tri-zone heating and cooling system. Hands-free cellphone system, mesh side pockets on the second-row seats, 110V inverter, two second-row output/input jacks with a 12-volt power outlet and an overhead console with bins large enough to store headphones. New to the industry is streaming video, supplied by Sirius satellites. You can also get a new, removable sliding front console that is large enough to store a purse; remote start;
  • artgpoartgpo Posts: 483
    My '03 Silhouette (long discontinued) had self leveling shocks as standard equipment. Olds added it prior to 2003. The van had a small air compressor to pump up the shocks or inflate a football. :) This is not something new.
  • dennisctcdennisctc Posts: 1,168
    If I ever buy a Dodge/Chrysler dealership, you have a job!!!
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    It's a heck of a minivan. Not much they forgot to put on them. Chrysler offers a little more than the Dodge. Oh, I forgot, both have a place to store an umbrella
  • Oh! The Sienna's handbook suggests you fill up with premium gas (an option, regular is fine; Odyssey states that you should use regular. Maybe someone could tell everyone what the Chrysler/Dodge use {I don't know}.
    I'll say again, in Canada (where I live) Honda does not have run-flat tires and Dodge/Chrysler does not offer lifetime warranties.

    2002 Odyssey EX
    1992 Ford Taurus 100
    1982 Ford E150 Customized Travel Van
    1979 Mercury Zephyr
    1972 Datsun 510
    1967 Plymouth Valiant
    1965 Morris 1100
    1963 Austin Mini
  • marine2marine2 Posts: 1,155
    Oh! The Sienna's handbook suggests you fill up with premium gas (an option, regular is fine; Odyssey states that you should use regular. Maybe someone could tell everyone what the Chrysler/Dodge use {I don't know}.
    I'll say again, in Canada (where I live) Honda does not have run-flat tires and Dodge/Chrysler does not offer lifetime warranties.


    THe Dodge/Chrysler both use regular gas. You should be happy Canada does not use run flat tires on the Honda. I have heard many complaints on them. Sorry Chrysler doesn't offer a lifetime warrany in Canada. That's one heck of a deal if you keep the van for four years or more.
  • hansiennahansienna Posts: 2,312
    I am vocal because I was STUPID enough to believe CR and other "experts" when they wrote that the Sienna (and Odyssey) are superior to the Chrysler minivans and I now drive a minivan that lacks features that were on the "inferior" Chrysler T&C.

    I have MANY friends who are repeat Chrysler minivan owners and I know only one who would not buy another Caravan...But he did purchased and now drives a Chrysler PT Cruiser that replaced the Caravan.

    BTW, since I am stuck with the Sienna, I am concentrating on the nice features like the most cargo area behind 3rd row seats of any minivan, the selector P-R-N-D-4-3-2-L, and the excellent "stand-alone" Oil/Oil Filter and if desired, Tire rotation facility of the selling Toyota dealership. :shades:
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