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Half-ton Pickups - The full field

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Comments

  • Tundra outsold Sierra for ONE MONTH..July. How about the other months and YTD? Oh, and FYI, the Sierra and Silvy are the same truck (aka GMT900's). So, did Tundra's outsell Red Silvy's? Same difference.

    Direct comparison? Did you not read the details of this comparison? 5.3 with 3.73's is "direct comparison" to 5.7 with 4.30's? Um, Ok, whatever you say. If they wanted to be fair, why didn't they choose to compare the 6.0 with 4.10's. that would be closer to a direct comparison. Right?
  • Your overpowered lawnmower couldn't keep with a Titan. I am sure you are in love with your DODGE but seriously you are making yourself a laughing stock with your outlandish comments.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    Some Statistician? Right. More like a mod over at pickuptruck.com. Cmon fill you can do better than that.
  • Here are the August sales and YTD sales:

    Ford F-Series
    481,146 -11.9% YTD
    August 2007: 69,220
    August 2006: 76,804

    Chevrolet Silverado
    425,379 -2.2% YTD
    August 2007: 67,486
    August 2006: 51,185

    Dodge Ram
    246,878 -1.0% YTD
    August 2007: 32,309
    August 2006: 34,177

    GMC Sierra
    138,759 -2.4% YTD
    August 2007: 23,574
    August 2006: 17,564

    Toyota Tundra
    124,909 +57.5% YTD
    August 2007: 18,919
    August 2006: 11,173

    Consider it "explained away"...
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Someone didn't read the link.

    DrFill
  • Sure I did, what's your point? That GMC's sales include the complete line? Big deal, since when is offering a FULL line of real trucks a bad thing? OK, so add up the 1/2 ton Tundra sales to all of the HD Tundra sales and then compare...oh wait, nevermind.

    Sorry dude, but comparing the measly 150-200K Tundra's to the Big 3's sales numbers is a lost cause. The big 3 sell more trucks in one month than Toyota sells Tundra's in an entire year. Face it, until Toyota offers more than 1 half ton with a choice of 3 engines, it is not even in the same game as the big 3.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    Sure I did, what's your point? That GMC's sales include the complete line?

    No.

    It had nothing to do with the HD's, those were factored out. The problem is adding in the previous 2006 1/2 ton version sales, which at this point seems like the preferred version. The Sierra's numbers are inflated. :surprise:

    The new Tundra is outselling the new Sierra.

    And the Sierra was out for months before the Tundra got here. Sierra was fully ramped-up, and should've steamrolled the fledgling Tundra! Where's the word-of-mouth? Where's the momentum?

    Where's the love? :confuse:

    It's at your local Toyota store! :blush:

    DrFill
  • You have no numbers to back that up, so it is purely speculation on your part. Oh, and let's say it is (which it isn't), who cares!!!??? The Sierra's and Silvy's are the SAME TRUCK...hence the name "GMT900". To split off the sales number is just a spin to make the Tundra's look better. Ford has been doing it for years too. The bottom line is, aside from cosmetic sheet metal and trim variances, they are identical and share all of the same components, are assembled on the same line using the same equipment. You could literally take a Silvy apart and a Sierra apart, mix up the parts randomly, and reassemble them. So, again, I ask you, does the Tundra also outsell red Silvy's too?

    What truck do you think a Sierra buyer would have bought if the Sierra was not available? Which truck do you think a Silvy buyer would have bought if a Silvy was not available? I rest my case.

    Let's talk sales numbers when Toyota sells as many 1/2 tons as GM/F/D and at least has more than one 1/2 ton truck in their line-up. Bringing a Tundra into the American truck segment is like a little league baseball player bringing his ball and glove to a MLB game and asking if he can play too. :P
  • Do you know the meaning of the word "estimated"? Maybe you need to re-read the article YOU posted. Oh, and I have heard that Toyota counts sales based on production, not actual sales to end user. The big 3 don't count a sale until it's actually sold to a customer, not a dealer. So, now figure out how many Tundra's are sitting on the lots and subtract that from their sales total, then compare again.
  • I love this quote by Toyota's President:

    "We view GM as a great entity, from which we have a lot to learn," Watanabe said, adding Toyota wanted to maintain its 22-year-old, California-based car assembly plant which it operates with GM. "We want to keep this relationship going."
  • I have a 4.0 v6 2006 SR5 Tundra. Each time I start the truck it takes the oil pressure guage almost 6 seconds before it will register. In other words, after I start the engine, the guage reads zero pressure for about 6 seconds then it will shoot up to about midway. Has anyone else had this experience?
  • I have a 4.0 v6 2006 SR5 Tundra. Each time I start the truck it takes the oil pressure guage almost 6 seconds before it will register. In other words, after I start the engine, the guage reads zero pressure for about 6 seconds then it will shoot up to about midway. Has anyone else had this experience?
  • Perhaps one should do some research on the benefits of box-steel frames. Dodge has been doing this for some time and now the new Tundra has it as well. In short, it reduces flex thereby giving a more rigid structure. Do you guys remember the old unibody (frameless) cars like the AMC Rambler? That was one sweet ride.
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    Sir are you inferring that the current new '07+ Tundras have fully boxed steel frames? I beg to differ.
  • Perhaps one should do some research on the benefits of box-steel frames. Dodge has been doing this for some time and now the new Tundra has it as well. In short, it reduces flex thereby giving a more rigid structure. Do you guys remember the old unibody (frameless) cars like the AMC Rambler? That was one sweet ride.

    Perhaps you should practice what you preach, the new Tundra's do NOT have a fully boxed frame, they have the "TripleTech" (haha) frame. Boxed up front, and c-channel the rest of the way back (cab area is reinforced C). They also do not use hydroforming in their mfg process. Oh, and they chose to rivet the non-boxed crossmembers in. Nice!!!
  • obyoneobyone Posts: 8,065
    the bolts they use......
  • Thanks for the clarification. It is not fully boxed.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    The bolts are smaller, but they use twice as many bolts as Ford does for their tow assembly.

    DrFill
  • That's because it mates along the frame rails for about 3 feet on each side. Why? Because the frame rails are so much weaker and the hitch needs more area to mount to prevent the frame rails from bending. C'mon DrFill, you already made a fool of yourself defending the guage issue, are you sure you want to make a bigger fool of yourself defending the TripleTech frame design?
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    After the last 3 days, I could never keep up with you. :surprise:

    DrFill
  • KCRamKCRam Mt. Arlington NJPosts: 3,516
    You've probably noticed I have renamed this discussion from Tundra vs Ram since comparisons have been spreading to all the half-tons. So all 6 full-size brands are now represented and fair game. I'll be mergin some other discussions in here as well, so don't panic if posts seem a little out of whack.

    kcram - Pickups Host
  • "If CR is not biased, then explain to me why they did the towing comparison between the Silvy and the Tundra the way they did. They equipped the Tundra with the top engine/drivetrain config (5.7, 6 spd, 4.30 rear end) and compared it to a Silvy with the 5.3 liter and a 3.73 rear end. Yeah, that is "Apples to Apples" isn't it? Face it, the ONLY people who do not agree that CR is asian biased is the asian fans.

    CR is a joke, they should stick to rating Washers and Dryers and Toasters and leave the Automobiles to people who know something about them. They do NOT just report on what people say, they conduct their own tests and have no clue what they are doing.

    The rest of your post just illustrates how "brainwashed" you are about Toyota supremity. Talk about "laughable"!!! Go drink some more of that Kool-Aid."


    Hmmm... Mr. buttoy, I guess you are saying that the whole world is wrong and you are the authority? Okay, well before you get too confident here, just remember that Toyota is the most studied and emulated car company in the world. If a fully boxed frame is the most important thing in the world to you, it doesn't matter to me. Go ahead and buy a Silvy and have a great life if that's what makes you happy. My bad experience with GM and Ford, and the experience of others in my family with their American cars, has led me to my disposition and the respect I have for Toyota. I have owned and currently own other brands as well - hardly brainwashed as you would like to think. Of the three cars I currently own, only one is a Toyota, so don't pat yourself so hard on the back. I think there are a lot of good brands out there and obviously don't just buy Toyota's because they are Toyota's, but I do think Toyota deserves its reputation as the benchmark for quality. Enjoy the Cool Aid, and by the way, it's "supremecy," not "supremity." That isn't even a word.
  • OK, if you have had bad experiences with GM and Ford, or whoever, I have no problem with you changing your loyalty. I would do the same. But do not assume just because you had these experiences, that everyone else has too. Personally, I have never had a bad experience with any domestics in my entire lifetime. And I have been driving for 26 years. My loyalty is not blind or inherited or anything of the sort. It is solely based on my personal experience, which has been nearly perfect. What urks me more than anything is when someone has a bad experience with a car(s) and right away assumes the entire corporation makes junk. I will also admit that Toyota has helped force the domestics to improve their quality due to competitiveness, especially in the late 70's through the early 90's. Mostly in the car market though, because they really have never offered a full sized truck until now and the domestics have always made great trucks (can't say the same about the cars though). But today I think a person has an equal chance of getting a good car and/or a lemon as I believe the quality has pretty much leveled off. Basically, you can get a cherry or a lemon no matter what brand you buy and your chances of getting a lemon are not any less buying a Toyota. Automotive technology has leveled off in today's mfg industry, plain and simple. They all use the same methodologies and technologies and engineers bounce around from corp to corp. I am NOT saying that all companies make the same overall quality vehicles however, some cut corners where they should not on such things as build quality. That is where I think the Tundra lacks, Toyota placed their focus on the engine/tranny and safety features, but cut corners just about everywhere else because they knew most people buying half-tons put HP and 0-60 times at the forefront and will overlook such things as fully boxed frames and quality fit-n-finish. The interior in the Tundra is a joke IMO, as is the overall build quality. Just look at the panel gaps for an example of shoddy fit-n-finish as compared to the GMT900's. But I understand that Toyota had to cut some corners since this is a brand new undertaking, in a brand new plant, with brand new everything, including people. As it is, they are already higher priced than the competition and have less features and lack alot of technology the domestics are incorporating i.e Hydroformed fully boxed frames.
  • It's good to hear sound reasoning prevailing again. I agree that the new GMT900's are put together nicely... as for the Tundra, I only casually looked at one a while back when I was buying the wife's new Sienna Limited, and didn't notice anything shoddy about the way it was put together, just the hard plastic where the Silvy has soft stuff. I prefer the soft, it feels more upscale. But as I said, I am gun shy, after nothing but bad with my previous GM's.... It just seems like flushing my hard earned money down the drain, and it will take a little while for GM to prove itself to me. Just for the record, I have never owned one of the domestic trucks... although I have spent a fair amount of time driving them, having previously worked for a company whose business was building high performance electronics for Duramax, Cummins and Powerstroke. I have said before, I loved every minute behind the wheel in those trucks, their power potential is almost limitless... but there again is the difference between myself and someone who buys a truck for work - for me, the utility is important, but probably second to the fun-to-drive quotient. I'd rather just drive a car, but find that I need a truck often enough that I am considering buying one. I wanted to buy a Duramax at one point because I really love the engine, but every one of them that we had had something falling apart on it. I don't want another bad car. In just the last year, I've known three different poeple who's late model GM trucks have blown trannys. So when I hear about that and think of my own bad luck with them, yeah, I get a pretty bad allergic reaction to the thought of spending any more money on one. The real clincher is my wifes grandfather spent his entire working career at GM. That's all they have ever owned. Needless to say, we avoid car discussions at family parties. I think you make some good points, and I would at least test drive a Silvy before buying anything, just for comparison, but I have to say, this is the first time in my 19 years of driving that I have ever heard a GM guy criticize the fit/finish of ANY other car make. That says something about how far GM has come along, I suppose, but I find it hard to believe the Tundra's fit and finish is bad. The hard plastic may not be as rich as is should be, but in my recollection, nothing fit poorly on the one I looked at. If it really does have issues with fit/finish, then I would hope and expect that it's a bug associated with ramping up on a new model.
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    The '06 Silverado had the worst interior ever put into a vehicle, unless you count the '98 C/Ks.

    The new Silvys interiors are posh compared to the Tundra, but, surprise, surprise, nobody cares, as sales fall for the new Silvy, while they soar for the more utilitarian Tundra.

    The last Tundra was very quiet and car-like, and no stampedes were seen at Toyota lots. Nobody cares.

    381HP, with 0% available, might be good for people. You can do a lot worse. :blush:

    DrFill
  • Fill, fill, fill...I have said this before and I'll say it again, try to stay with me here, I'll type VERY slowly for you, ok?

    Yes, the Silvy sales are down compared to last year, do you know/understand why? Let me explain..again. With high gas prices and a very poor/down housing and construction market, builders are not buying new trucks, they are making due with what they have. This affects the domestics because MOST real work trucks are from the Big 3. This does not affect Toyota because construction workers and other "real" truck buyers do not buy Tundra's. Sorry, but it's a fact.
    Now, as to why the Tundra's sales (as a percentage) are up...Because it's replacing a mid-sized wannabe that everyone agreed was less than capable as a full sized truck. Toyota fans finally have a full sized truck to buy. Of course they are going to pounce. Let's see if this can be sustained. I am betting it won't. Once the hype wears off and the people waiting for this new Tundra have theirs, sales will level off and will hover around 200K. Still a tiny little league player in a big league game.
    So, you continue to beleive that the reason the 1st gen Tundra was a flop was due to being "car-like" and "quiet" and not due to capability. Sure, most people put capability first, but they DO care about about build quality and fit-n-finish too. I can only imagine what you would be saying if the Silvy's interior was made of cheap painted plastic with poor ergonomics and the Tundra had the nicer interior. I am betting you would be singing a different tune, right? The bottom line is the GMT900's are just as capable as the Tundra, have better build quality/fit-n-finish, nicer interior, more features, better ride, more options/configs, get better gas mileage and all for a lower price.

    Nobody cares? LOL, nice try!!! I do, and from reading all of the forums, so do most people. "Utilitarian" Tundra...again, LOL, is that why I have yet to see one with a company badge/sign on it or on ANY construction sites? Face it, 95% of Tundra's are driveway queens that make Home Depot runs and streetlight race back home with fertilizer and plants in the bed. But in a sense you are correct, Toyota fans who buy this truck for it's 0-60 times can overlook it's inferiorities.
    Oh, what was wrong with the GMT800's interiors? And isn't a bit hypocritical to put down the 06 Silvy interior and then turn around and say "nobody cares"? Or is it that nobody cares about the crappy Tundra interior only?
  • drfilldrfill Posts: 2,484
    I think way too quickly for that.

    But you need this explained, again.

    GM has MILLIONS of truck owners. THE biggest customer base ever for a redesigned truck! Sell them a new truck! :mad:

    The Tundra has the same market disadvanatges the Silvy does, probably more, as they've missed the market twice already.

    With the millions thrown into the design of this truck, the market, and the need to keep Toyota in it's place, the GENERAL has FAILED! :sick:

    You can spin it eight different ways, make any excuse you want. And you will! :blush:

    There are holes in GM's marketing, design, and power. Toyota is driving a Tundra through those holes. :)

    When Toyota is the only full-size truck gaining share, that says a lot about the job the domestics have done protecting their turf, and making better trucks.

    Losing 2-3% a year, on a brand-new truck is UNACCEPTABLE!! The time for EXCUSES has passed. They missed something, and they know it.

    You may not know it yet, but...... :surprise:

    DrFill
  • Maybe I need it explained again..I ain't buyin that load of.....

    "Sell them a new truck"? Why? They already have a great one. :P

    Toyota has the same market disadvantages huh? Go to your local construction sites and tell me the ratio of Tundra's to Domestics, then tell me the Tundra suffers equally to a down construction market. C'mon Fill, a little common sense please.

    Toyota is still and always will be "in their place". That "place" is 5th. With a fraction of total sales as compared to the Big 3 and still no HD's or Diesels. Just ONE truck with 3 engine choices.
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