United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

stever

People come to this discussion to talk about the UAW. If you want to talk health care, please try to connect it to the union.

thanks....

iluvmysephia1

yeah, a union is only as strong as it's strongest members. Is that what you said? The thing is, SPEEA could only provide help in cases where management had not followed the rules of Boeing business-employee etiquette in some way. Petty and some not-so-petty issues were followed up well by SPEEA. I'll hand the engineering employees union from Boeing that much.

If, for the majority of workers, barring a health care issue complaint or some other benefits issue, a real concern like...oh, I don't know, continued employment for the planemaker were to come up, the union could do very little. I know that laying people off is a common way to handle a downturn in business.

Boeing's way of doing this dirty little task stinks to high heaven, though. It doesn't matter what type of employee you are or how hard you work. In fact, if you're liked by or in the right click you can drink Starbuck's coffee or eat little jelly donuts to your heart's content and make it through layoffs. Or you might not.

During these times(layoff times, not like it is right now)employee job transfers are forbid. For the common folks, anyway. E-mails to other employees for suggestions or help are myseriously not answered. It's like being Jason Bourne and the ones who are keeping their jobs at Boeing are like the CIA in those wonderfully entertaining movies.

Point is, the union is about as useful as...as....umm...as Barbara Walters in a discussion about whether Greg Odin or Kevin Durant are the most valuable addition to their prospective NBA teams from the college draft. She'd be clueless as hell about that subject. But talk about Rosie O'Donnell and that broad she argued with on the air or whatever they waste good time and money talking about on that stupid show and Babwa Wah-Wah will talk your ear a'plenty. The union was useless when a real issue would come up and they really can't do much to get you re-hired, either.

They love to rally the troops when it comes contract time and striking, oh yes. I personally witnessed my union strike for an additional 15-odd days and get another proposal that was worse than the original one they voted down. And they thought it was better! That's what I'm talking about. Unions foster a group rah-rah-rah mentality that prods people along and fosters them to turn off their brains and think logically for themselves. Seen it happen firsthand, man. It's true.

Not to get lost in a union vs. non-union discussion here, I will say this. The UAW is really fortunate for what they've won in concessions so far. That grabby-butt attitude should take on a different tack now when their butts are being tarred so badly by the Japanese and now the Koreans. Time to hold back the Kentucky Fried Chicken grubby fingers and turn on the brains and cut back on what UAW demands are. Think about it seriously for a moment.

And make employees pay more for their healthcare and get less in total benefits. Just a plain reality. If the UAW helps more GM-Ford workers keep their jobs then great.

I have experienced the futility of having an aerospace white collar union(our strike in 2000 was the longest white collar strike in history)but admit that an automakers union has some different parameters but still has some similar goals. They need to be tweaked to suit the times is all I'm suggesting.

gagrice

I can identify with many of your concerns.
First: a Union needs to be aware of the condition of the employer.

Second: Keeping the Union members in line with the prevailing wages and benefits.

Third: Protect the trusts such as pension and wefare.

Fourth: Keep the workers working.

Our Union Has their own healthcare plan. It started out with 100% Medical, Dental & Eyecare. During the pipeline boom days of the 1970s we owned a big hospital, dental clinic and optometrist office. Today our benefit costs many times more to the employer and the healthcare is much less. We pay 30% up to $2500 per year. Maximum dental is $2000 per year at 50%. $200 for eyecare every two years. Retirees were covered for life. In the recession of the 1980s we sold the hospital and clinics. We took the retirees healthcare and they had to pay to keep the coverage. When I retired last year I found better coverage at Kaiser for less than half what the Union premiums are. All the healthcare benefits were killing the Union. People would go to the doctor when they stubbed their toe.

As a shop steward I listened to all kinds of petty complaints. The members after a while felt entitled to a job regardless of their performance. I felt as a shop steward it was the Union's place to discipline poor performance. Management in general are clueless as to who is doing a good job. They are so easily swayed by those they like. If the Union does not police their ranks they become a burden to the company, rather than an asset. Our Union felt that the companies needed to make money from the labors of the Union members. I do not know if that attitude exists within the UAW. If not it should. No one deserves a free ride.

In the past the Unions provided the best employees in any given trade. That is the only way they can survive in this day and age.

grbeck

gagrice: I do not know if that attitude exists within the UAW. If not it should. No one deserves a free ride.

Based on the postings of UAW members on other auto-related websites...it doesn't.

Which is a problem. There is just as much rot and deadwood within the UAW as there was within the Big Three management structure. It needs a good housecleaning, along with a new direction. Perhaps taking on healthcare responsbilities for members will force some needed changes within the union.

iluvmysephia1

discussion the plain fact that the company these union workers are working for needs to produce a buyable product in the first place.

At Boeing right now the 787, made of composite materials, is the talk of the aeropace commercial jet world. I would be able to eventually find myself work right now with my 20 years of experience if I kept up looking for it. The orders just are flowing in for Boeing. And Airbus is struggling so badly that they are in serious shape to survive theirselves now.

I'm in an in-demand position in the Allied Health field, though, too, and I enjoy living in hot and dusty and sunny SE Arizona more than the great Pacific NW, too. So I'm gonna stay in the desert.

But my whole point is that Boeing is offering a very, very desirable product, one that will save on jet fuel for airliners. That is key to their success.

GM and Ford and Chrysler need to really think hard about their offerings and come up with some great new gas-saving ideas now. I don't think gas prices are going to be tumbling anytime soon.

tpe

If the fuel saving claims are true for the 787 then it is truly a revolutionary airliner. Having never worked for Boeing I don't have your perspective when it comes to employee relations. However their products have consistently been world beaters. So from that perspective they are definitely doing something right.

I don't think the European community would allow Airbus to go under.

rkleem

Not sure that supporting the unions is the ticket for Edwards to be elected. Many Americans, myself included, won't vote for him because of that support. Outside the rust belt, unions are generally looked down upon from my experience.

Other than professional sports, is there any unionized industry that isn't in trouble? There may be, but as a southerner I don't know what they would be. We don't have unions here, and don't want them. I'll deal with my company directly, but thanks.

I think unions are primarily to blame for the woes of the auto and airline industries. And are probably responsible for the death of manufacturing in the US.

rkleem

Nicely done. So true it's scary.

cooterbfd

Primarily, or partly. Is it the unions fault that manufacturing can be done in China or Honduras for pennies on the dollar??? Did the unions make the choice to send the work there??? Even at minimum wage, those mfr. jobs would go away.

BTW, if The foreign auto mfr's plants unionized, do you REALLY think they'd take their toys and go home??? No. Why?? They couldn't afford the PR hit and loss of sales from open minded people who feel comfortable buying an "American Honda".

Also, as a unionized telecom worker, I can tell you we aren't in trouble. I often wonder if I truely deserve the good money I make, because my union fights for my wages and benefits. College graduates don't make what I make. But, when I leave a customer's house, and they are happy with my service, and having felt comfortable with THIS stranger in their home, I know why I make what I make. It's not just because what I know, it's because of who I am. Not a superstar ballplayer. Not a genius with a PhD. Not a high profile, successful entrepeneur. Just an HONEST, DECENT, BLUE COLLAR WORKER who lives in the same neighborhoods as they do.

We don't have unions here, and don't want them. I'll deal with my company directly, but thanks.

All I can say to this is, I hope they treat you with the same dignity you treat them with, and provide you with an honest, decent wage that allows you to live a good comfortable life, and never pull the rug out from underneath you.

fezo

Thanks for that.

Have a friend who retired here in NJ but continued working in Florida a "right to work state," which means right to not join a union. This basically keeps unions out.

Within a year, the employer added 5 hours per week to the work week with no increase in compensation. Shortly after that he declared that in an emergency situation that since these people worked for the county they were emergency personnel and that if called would be brought in to manage shelters despite no training. For a while he screened all calls coming in to make sure it wasn't some harebrained thing from the county and then he decided it wasn't worth it and retired for good.

Up here he had a union and the employer had to abide by the contract.

euphonium

Primarily, or partly. Is it the unions fault that manufacturing can be done in China or Honduras for pennies on the dollar??? Did the unions make the choice to send the work there??? Even at minimum wage, those mfr. jobs would go away.

The unions eventually priced themselves out of being competitive against foreign workers. The medical premium burden for retired UAW is a major factor of cost to USA companies. The union worker's quality of work is not as high as the pay he receives for it compared to overseas labor. Most importantly, the stock holders of the corporation constantly press on management to be competitive. Why don't unions and union members thrive on competition?

cooterbfd

Why don't unions and union members thrive on competition?

Let's see:

A union stitcher making jeans in an air conditioned shop makes what, $13-15/ hr?? Even min. wage here is what, $6.75???

A non union stitcher in Honduras makes what, 65-75 CENTS/hr.
How can ANYBODY thrive when the pay difference is that great???

A worker at the Georgetown, Ky Toyota plant gets fired (probably rightfully so) for releasing an internal memo to the press from a high ranking Toyota official that basically states that the $30/hr they make there is too much, and thinks they should have their pay cut to 17-19/hr, or just a little more than the average person in Ky makes in manufacturing.

Because of a little thing called a contract, GM couldn't just arbitrarily cut workers pay, just because they "think" they make too much.

imidazol97

>GM couldn't just arbitrarily cut workers pay, just because they "think" they make too much.

And those in management and higher jobs are paid at great multiples of the base pay. That unfairly high wage is also a factor in the need for unions to protect the worker.

Everyone is always antiunion until their relative or spouse or kid gets fired to make room for the relative of a boss or management person... hehe..

Another factor to help the people in this country will be foreign companies selling insurance at much cheaper costs taking the high pay of the face-to-face agent out of the cost formula. Half price for all my insurance? I can call a phone bank; may as well, my agent works such infrequent hours in his office.

Now if we can let the foreign companies replace these highly paid lawyers. With their union called the AMA... and since most legislators are lawyers they won't let their brethren be replaced with lower-paid workers.

euphonium

Any successful insurance agent will not be chained to his office because the sales are made at the customer's location. Knowing the commission schedules for Property and Casualty, you are not going to get a 50% discount when your policy is written overseas. In fact, most of the domestic carriers re insure with foreign companies and the overseas companies re insure with our companies. It's called "spread the risk".

iluvmysephia1

being a member of SPEEA(Seattle Professional Engineering Employees Association)didn't help me keep my job in 2003. Airbus was at that time having Boeing for lunch and the competition was very intense. I remember reading the articles in the union paper from SPEEA members complaining that they were already being outsourced(don't 'cha just love these New World Order corporate terms)in favor of younger college graduates and Russians(yes, Boeing started up shop in Russia to train engineers to do our work, up ahead of more outsourcing).

This didn't stop Boeing execs from having their affairs at work and paying theirselves huge pay increases. This was at a time that more pay for them made about as much sense as Rosie O'Donnell hiring back on at The View.

These dorks in suits are crooks. Even though times are much more favorable now and I could get back on at Boeing I'll leave that to anyone who deems the place favorable to them.
I made decent money there for just short of 20 years. Funny, when a person gets that many years shouldn't their union jump in and help them a tad? Maybe they like their job and would like to retire there, I don't know! Working hard and/or smart had nothing to do with it. I tried that practical route.

I lot of the SPEEA members were clueless as to what a good contract offer was, anyway. They struck another 18 days in 2000 for nothing. The first offer from Boeing was the better one and they rejected it. Rah-rah for you SPEEA!

Unions are a bad Leno joke. If Boeing fell in to Puget Sound and found theirselves at battle with a few thousand octopii I would barely bat an eyelash. Good riddance.

I'm not going back. Watch out, current Boeing workers, they'll slit your throat fast and hard if they get a little nervous twitch. And SPEEA and the IAW will not be able to catch you when you fall. They will make sure they get their dues every month, oh yes.

euphonium

This didn't stop Boeing execs from paying theirselves huge pay increases.

The Boeing execs earned their pay by attaining college degrees and post graduate degrees. They know what they did to earn their pay and we all know what you didn't do to earn yours. The execs aren't union, but self empowered to negotiate their income without union bosses taking a major portion and taking charge of them.

fintail

Yeah, execs always earn their pay and perks! They work hard and create legititmate good. There is certainly no cronyism or recycling of old garbage in the exec ranks.

The growing socio-economic gaps in this lovely society are a good thing, too!

iluvmysephia1

eat jelly donuts and drink Starbuck's all they like. I am one who realizes that it is not like comparing apples to apples. They have earned different degrees and more degrees. Some of them are still clueless, immoral dorks. I don't like them and I don't respect them. So what, right?

Who gives a crap about another Boeing worker losing their job? I mean, that's one of Boeing's trademarks. Laying off good employees.

My point is that SPEEA and the IAW are not good examples of fortitudes to put your trust and confidence in. They are good at making signs when it comes time to strike and for solving real simple little disagreements that the average 3rd grader could solve if you give them a few minutes to look at the case.

Other than that they aren't worth the monthly dues and Boeing is not worth going back to. Even if I didn't have 10 college degrees I had a lot of years in at Boeing. Went through many layoffs. Planned and detailed and checked and charted a lot of production illustration engineering drawings for many, many years. And if some dork in a business suit(or in Boeing's case its a collaboration of several Homer Simpson's sitting together eating fine donuts and sipping hot Starbuck's coffee)decides he wants to poop-can 19 out of 21 people in 767 Production Illustration and off-load their work to people being managed by a former Boeing manager(who started his own engineering support group outside of Boeing but knows Boeing's work process)who will get half the pay we got, they will do just that.

Calls to the union produce no help, because they can't help you in these witty corporate decisions. Calls to other Boeing workers get you no e-mail responses or phone call repsonses. You're basically a laid-off leper who is going to be gone. Gonna have to go meet other people and go other places. Sure thing.

Then, those execs are fired for their little flings on the job at Boeing. HQ's now in Chicago, no longer Seattle. So the execs didn't have to get their dirty little heads tired by the long, arduous airplane flights back to Seattle from Washington, DC, and Chicago.

Sheesh. What a trip. Have fun Boeing. We all love and respect you and your talented workers and immoral executives. Watch your hindquarters from the back-stabbing and hope some idiot know-it-all doesn't decide over a jelly donut that he should throw away your 20 years of jet-making engineering drawing experience out the door to "save a few bucks for the big-boy company."

Now I'm a happy Allied Healthcare worker ready to make your hospital stay a little bit nicer.

cooterbfd

What a pompous and arrogant post!

I suppose because you spend a lot of money on a college degree, that entitles you to rediculous pay scales??? I suppose you think it's OK for these people with masters in engineering, many that may have invested $250k or more in their education, to lose their jobs to some nerdy twit in India making $400/month, all due to a decision from some "pedigreed crony" in a suit.

Incredible.

euphonium

Yes, arrogant, but true. There is more to attaining post graduate degrees than spending a lot of money. These professional levels are earned, not bought. Often, delayed gratification is involved in making carnal sacrifices secondary to primary goals of education rather than reproduction. It takes an amount of dedication, patience, and perseverance, not practiced by the majority of young people who expect more for having done less.

It is good you are in competition with an Indian, but if you fail to convince the pedigreed crony of your abilities here vs the Indian's performance levels over there, you lose. How well did you perform your job in competitive comparison?

In a competitive job market, the best usually surface and survive.

10 years ago, Boeing was considered an Adult Day Care Center and today, not so.

fintail

Do you have any experience in postgraduate education? I am willing to wager not.

Indeed, it is not difficult to buy an education. The real world exists outside of podunk SW WA.

And Boeing is still called the "Lazy B" :P

euphonium

If you bet, you'd be a loser at that also. (Your question attempts to personalize the issue - very defensive on your part.)

Podunk SW WA is preferred by educated retired folk over Calamity King County.

When just "buying" an education, how do you take and pass the state board exams without the knowledge obtained through dedicated years of study?

All else being equal, the Resume with the advanced degrees trumps little experience.

cooterbfd

It is good you are in competition with an Indian, but if you fail to convince the pedigreed crony of your abilities here vs the Indian's performance levels over there, you lose. How well did you perform your job in competitive comparison?

First of all, I work for Verizon in the manholes, which can't be packaged up and sent to India so the work can be done for $2/hr. That's why I get $32/hr. At that difference in salary, no matter HOW GOOD I could do, the work would go over there. Sending work over there does nothing but depress salaries here. My salary isn't overblown, it's just not depressed.

BTW Mr. pedigreed crony doesn't compete with educated Indians either. They, like you and I, aren't part of the GOOD 'OLE BOY NETWORK. Sure, if Mr. Crony does a poor job at Company A and gets canned, somebody from Company B's board (of which the now deposed CEO of Co. A probably serves on) will get the job based on the recommendation of the CEO of Company B (who, BTW, just happens to be on the board of Co. A.) What a coincedence!!!! THAT is a conflict of interest, which would get any Congressman sent to jail.

fintail

Defensive or unjustifiably arrogant and free of substance and credibility/credentials...I can't say one is a victor.

How many bloated CEOs pass state board exams? These usually are not lawyers and CPAs.

Do family trees fork in your neck of the woods? :P

iluvmysephia1

and lack of really good sense, did decide that young college graduates that were aerospacedly clueless were worth more to them than someone who had slaved in their Starbuck's-laden jelly donut land-den of inequity. What a joke. I would've loved to have been there and watched them struggle so mightily for 2 straight years looking for the right engineering data. Don't worry-we've got complete control-these birds will fly I tell you-they'll fly-high-high-ha-ha-haa-haa-haa. Everyone at Boeing is so worried about protecting their own job and backside that the politics snuffs out the talent that propels the drawings out the door month after month. They never instituted a plan that would reward hard work at Boeing. The place was so political that one's talent didn't matter. They were looking for something else..something else that doesn't deserve the room in cyberspace to discuss. So I won't.

No matter how much money I saved that company for so many years by making experienced business decisions...in the end...it all wound up as a big pile of Washington state pigeon crap. Business decisions that were made by choosing the best path to go...seriously thought out ones that would give the company readable production drawings that helped them get through crisis after crisis.

As I was reading the union journals about people criticizing the Boeing execs and management crews for deciding to slay hundreds and eventually thousands of loyal employees, I would think..."Wow..these SPEEA members are really whiners. They really think they'll be poop-canned? No way. Boeing knows what they're doing(right...)and they'll keep you. You've got to have faith."

Well, guess what? Boeing decided in their infinite wisdom to poop-can thousands and thousands of loyal, dedicated, hard-working aerospace workers to "lay the formwork for Boeing's future."

Right. Those dog-fighters dont care about your future at all. They want to have affairs at work and let everyone else do all the work and then lay them off. I think I hate the immorality of Being more than the stupidity of their managers and executives. True idiots.

Once again, you can think that lining the walls with degrees makes you a better employee. With Boeing I think they went to some funky Deming course and got all the managers drunk nightly afterwards... and brainwashed them in to thinking that having drone-like employees who are ever-so-willing to flash you their high credentials at any momemt...they made this their God and just shooed away thousands of the people that kept that place going during the tough times.

Nope, not going back to that hell-hole. Washington state is the home of back-stabbing theives who would rather run you off the road than extend a hand of help to you or anyone else. I'll stay here in the SW desert poking around for scorpions and horned lizards and dodge javalina's.

I think I'd rather watch 6 months straight of The View than go back to my Boeing job or to Washington state.

Can you imagine listening to Bawbwa-Wa-Waaa nonstop for 6 months? Maybe get Mr.I've lined my cube with fetterance degrees to study the intelligence of Bawbwa-Waaa-Waaa for a while and then get back to us. Huuu-awwwwhhh.

gagrice

I think I'd rather watch 6 months straight of The View than go back to my Boeing job or to Washington state

Now that is funny. I agree about living in Washington. Especially Seattle. It is cloudy and gloomy too much of the year. So depressing. Besides we grow sweeter apples in the back hills of San Diego than they do in Yakima.

I think that the UAW is facing an uphill battle. They will need to bleed a lot to keep jobs for the future.

iluvmysephia1

exactly, UAW is going to have to give concessions. But they're not going to want to. They've lived the fat and slappy life for way too long. They call Boeing "The Lazy B" and I might agree with that if I hadn't put twenty years in at that place. Believe you me there were times that we had to bust our fannies to get those drawings out on time. I am commenting in here on this discussion because there are probably some similarities between UAW and SPEEA and GM and Boeing. Boeing responded to intense competition and lowering stock dividends by slaying 40,000+ workers in about 1 1/2 years of time. Yikes. And it wasn't done in a scientific, well-thought out manner. Fingers would get pointed at a group and the Einsteins would get to work deciding how that well-established group should be "dispensed" with.

With execs Stonecipher and Condit and their torrid affairs gone the company unexpectedly did an about face and the orders started coming in. Maybe these dorks in business suits mean more to a company's fortune than one might think?

Yeah, I know it would be cool to keep your $25-$50/hr UAW jobs and get paid even when you're not working, but that makes about as much business sense as having Britney Spears start driving NASCAR cars in real races for real money(hey, Brit, why don't you leave the little puppies home while you're racing?). Eventually the sales of pick-em-up trucks and large SUV's aren't enough to keep all of your jelly donut and Starbuck's fannies afloat. Hey, I've been there. I worked hard for Boeing and I'm sure a lot of you work or worked hard for Ford, GM and/or Chrysler.

But times change and your UAW demands might start getting a bit sticky for corporate Daddy to comply with in these competitive times, eh?

jd10013

But times change

That is exactly it in a nutshell. Nobody is going to pay $60 an hour plus another $30 an hour in bennifits to put an air filter on an engine as it comes down an assembly line. If you want to make that kind of money, then you need to get an education, or go into business for yourself. No company can compete paying that kind of money for what is basically unskilled labor.

Unions once were very important. they gave us things like safty regulations, eliminated child labor, a 40hr work week and so on. But, they've out lived their usefullness. Kind of a victim of their own success. Now, they're corrupt, broke, uncompetitive, and foster a lowest common denominator mentality where even grossly unqualified employes can't be removed, and are promoted if they have the most senority. Its a system that doesn't allow the best and the brightest to advace, but rather the one that got in the door first. The job market has become competitive enough that its not hard to get a good paying job without the union.

The truth of the matter is, despite what pro union people think, companies don't exist to provide jobs, or health care, or retirement, or anything else. They exist to make money, period. And if you can make that comany money, they will give you whatever it takes to keep you. But unions see it more as "I exist, therefor I should get".

euphonium

When I bought my block of stock, it was $42.

As for employee retention: Keep the best, cull the rest.

Job Security is a myth.

Times change and globalization is here. Live with it.

cooterbfd

Unions once were very important. they gave us things like safty regulations, eliminated child labor, a 40hr work week and so on. But, they've out lived their usefullness.

In what way??? Who is going to stop them from taking those rules and regulations away from us??? Check this out:

http://www.southcoasttoday.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070516/NEWS/70516039- 6

foster a lowest common denominator mentality where even grossly unqualified employes can't be removed, and are promoted if they have the most senority.

You see, That's not always true. Where I work, bids go up for Building and Auto mechanics. If you don't qualify (pass an aptitude test for Auto) or have the certificates (Building), you don't get the bid. Plain and simple. If you do, the most senior person in the local gets it. This is just as fair as anything, considering that the job is the same in Bangor, ME., Buffalo, NY, or Boston Ma.

Other jobs are jobs that are trained IN HOUSE!! Meaning that the MANAGEMENT is RESPONSIBLE for training the worker. If the worker slips behind, then management is (reasonably) reponsible to retrain them. That is a basic courtesy even Walmart would extend to their employees. If they don't get it, they don't get it, and can (and do) get shown the door. Now, allowances can be made for senior employees (to send them to another job, or back where they came from) if their new job is over their head.

As far as advancement, the best and brightest do have the opportunity to move up, w/ no preference to seniority: It's called management.

iluvmysephia1

bad decisions by management are quite another. Boeing is going great guns right now...good for them. They can fly right off into the stratosphere and make a deal with their...umm...destiny. My point is that unions can do nothing when management has ideas they intend to implement. I just don't have any respect for a company that will plead with you to work overtime all the time. PLEASE, PLEASE HELP US GET LUFTHANSA AND JAL OUT THIS WEEKEND. PRETTY PLEASE!

Everything will be going along fine and then Joe Jelly Donut will decide to just poop-can 19 out of 21 dedicated, hard-working, loyal employees in an instant. Big-whoop-dee-doop, huh? Took one for the Big Bopper.

Well, they can have all the big birds they want. Big birds for Boeing's Big Boys. What a bunch of dorks. Fly bye-bye now!

I read that SPEEA's Executive Board has voted to remove Charles Bofferding, their Executive Above All Other SPEEA Executives. Another Starbuck's and Jelly Donut decision. Hummm..I wonder how many degrees C.Bofferding has? Charles was away attending his daughter's graduation and came back, the Board had a meeting and pulled a surprise out of their hat. We're gonna take a vote on you keeping your job or us telling you to leave, C.Bofferding. Guess how it came out? 4-3 to oust him. Oh well. Another brilliant Boeing moment. Apparently these people who voted him out didn't discuss their intentions like some super-important members of the SPEEA Executive Board felt they should have(democratic, open-discussion type principles)and they are hotter than hornets over it right now. But that's Boeing. They can have it and buzz off with it, too.

I'll hang out down here and work my Allied Healthcare job(that is in great demand all over the nation right now)and do a good job. All the while I'll be glad that dorks in business suits don't oversee everything I do and then clamp in with a Starbuck's and jelly donut Homer Simpson brilliant sleaze-ball moment while I'm not looking. Have fun up there in Jimi Hendrix land, y'all.

Don't try keeping the Sonics up there, either, Mr. Bennett has pulled his own Starbuck's and jelly donut moment out by buying the Supersonics from Mr.Howard Schultz, the majority owner of Starbuck's. They very well could be on their way to OKC. Looks like the Muckleshoot tribe may just have to be the group to propose the $500mil stadium complex that will make Clay happy and keep the Sonics in Seattle. But that's off-topic and not in the same line of thinking that perhaps UAW demands just may have flown the coup a tad and gotten a bit out of control. Just a tad?

jd10013

In what way??? Who is going to stop them from taking those rules and regulations away from us??? Check this out:

competition does that. employers are in desperate need of qualified, skilled, reliable employees. Hell, we're importing them from other countries now. They will do what it takes to aquire and retain such employees.The secret is, you need to aquire a skill or knowldge that makes you valuable. Unions don't see it that way. they look at it as, I exist, therefore I get. all unions do is inflate the wages of low skilled people. It isn't 1930 anymore, if you want a six figure salary you don't need a union.......you need a college education. Most manufacturing jobs are simply repetitive, low skilled labor positions. Technology has done that. And they just arn't worth what the UAW thinks they are. Its simple supply and demand. If you can find any joe blow off the street to perform a job, they why would you pay him a rediculous wage when you can find ten thousand more like him to do the same thing.

As far as advancement, the best and brightest do have the opportunity to move up, w/ no preference to seniority: It's called management.

yes, and thats because management is not allowed to belong to the union.

I'm sure you can find examples here and there where the union allowed a promotion without senority, but seniority far and away rules the day at any union shop.

british_rover

Errr can someone translate?

euphonium

You leave me with the impression you have been defeated by your former superiors at Boeing and were let go.

As for affairs at work, the only one to make the papers was the Stonecypher mistake that began when "they" were at M/D. Those two brought their trist with them to Boeing.

While you are happy where you are - stay out of the vineyard business. You would only grow "sour grapes". :sick:

euphonium

the most senior person in the local gets it.

The "Union Mentality" of honoring "seniority" over "quality" is what has enabled mass mediocrity to come out of the union shop.

Why should the oldest and/or longest serving employee be honored more than the better qualified younger person?

What has fairness got to do with competing for a job?

iluvmysephia1

if you leave a lot of the people out of it. The actual job was a challenging one and working conditions were generally fairly good. Pay was good and the benefits were excellent. Like I say, I was feeling like working there until retirement. Until too many Chiefs got together and changed all of that. It's a very uncomfortable place to work...even now as Boeing is prospering I'll bet the vast majority of the workers are scared of losing their job. That feeling permeates the workplace. I wish them well. Glad to be gone. They can have it and attempt to make sweet wine out of an entire company full of sour, rotting grapes, know-it-alls and degreed dorks in various degrees of tough Puget-Sound attitude. If you work there you are always going to be hounded and you'll be swooshed away in a micro-second. If they decide in a moment of jelly donut Homer Simpsoon brilliance that they'd like to swoosh you, they'll do it. Idiots. Let them be forced to watch 'The View' nonstop for 6 years.

I do think that the UAW are part of the reason that Ford, GM and Chrysler are where they are today. Even when Boeing got antsy and laid off 40,000+ loyal, dedicated workers in 2002-2003, the Company was still earning money. Just not enough publicly traded stock dividend money was coming in to please enough greedy palates. Once again, outside influences creeping in and creating nuisances.

To lose what Ford is losing and Chrysler, increasing worker benefits and demands don't make any sense. That should change or more jobs will fall.

cooterbfd

Why should the oldest and/or longest serving employee be honored more than the better qualified younger person?

Because, at least where I work, those bid jobs that go strictly by seniority are for jobs that we train fully for IN HOUSE!!! There is language in the contract that states that the company can look at extra qualifications when considering elegible candidates, but ALL THINGS BEING EQUAL,SENIORITY SHALL PREVAIL (as opposed to the employee who spent most of their workday under the bosses desk, or the one who is related to a vice president).

jd10013

And you think unions prevent that? then I have some swampland in arizona I'd like to sell you. Unions are amoung the most corrupt organizations out there. Just getting a job in a union shop usualy requires favoritism. But then again, union jobs are hard to come by. Because of the destructive nature of a union, few union shops are doing much hiring. And you almost always have to know, or be related to somebody on the inside to land one of those jobs. And once again, sure, there are some exceptions. But for the vast majority of unions thats how it works.

If you want to put your barganing power in the hands of someone else, or let a corrupt, broke, self interested union tell your employer what your worth, then by all means go ahead. I, on the other hand, will watch out for my own interests, and determine myself, what my work is worth.

euphonium

And you almost always have to know, or be related to somebody on the inside to land one of those jobs.

Very true in the ILWU (International Longshore & Warehouse Union)as the only way to get a "Regular" card is by incestuous nepotism. Locally, it used to help a lot by joining a certain lodge first, making a connection via a brother of the lodge. Gotta know the handshake and password

When the "Regular" gets to work an hour or more away from the hall, his pay includes portal to portal which can be up to four hours a shift sitting on his caboose in a pickup going to and from the ships.

Harry Bridges is still and always will be their hero. :P

rockylee

I guess that's why the rest of the first world feels pity for the uneducated in this country. :confuse:

-Rocky

iluvmysephia1

what do unions have to do with being an educated people? That's assuming a whole lot.

euphonium

Other names for unions are:Association, Guild, Organization.

Public school teachers = NEA a union

International Woodworkers Assoc. " "

Nurses have their group

Pharmacists have their group

All of the above lose their "Professional" status because they are subject to going on strike. True professionals do NOT strike. :P

stever

Sure, doctors never strike. Except the ones in Israel, Nepal, India, Saskatchewan ... and West Virginia. Lawyers struck in California. Engineers struck at Boeing. If you go out on strike, does that mean you struck?

Baseball anyone? :P

iluvmysephia1

struck out. Not only did they never need to strike at all in 2000 but they rejected the first offer from Boeing one month in to the longest white collar strike in worker history, that IMHO was the better offer. I should say "we" rejected it because I was a SPEEA member, too. I hate situations where you're thrown in with the rest of the group's decision whether you like it or not, ya know what I mean?

Glad to be a non-unionized Allied Health worker right now.

imidazol97

> True professionals do NOT strike.

Yeah. Sure. :P :confuse:

Doctors just refuse to work with a medical insurance brand they don't think they get paid enough for their "services" from.
Baseball players don't strike.
Football players doon't strike.
Actors don't strike.

gagrice

I worked under a Teamster contract for 37 years in Alaska. We never went on strike. We did slow down a time or two to get our point across. Never hit a boss with a baseball bat. I guess we were professionals :shades:

iluvmysephia1

gagrice. Never hit your boss with a baseball bat. :P
Admirable.

Oooh...just got a nasty thought of M.Vick and puppy dogs. We won't go there.

jd10013

Lawyers struck in California

and for a short period of time, the world was a better place. :P

grbeck

imidazol97: Doctors just refuse to work with a medical insurance brand they don't think they get paid enough for their "services" from.

That's not a strike. They are merely refusing to work with a particular insurance company. They are still seeing patients, but if the patient relies on that particular insurance company for coverage, then he or she will have to pay cash.

imidazol97

>They are merely refusing to work with a particular insurance company.

They are on strike against that insurance company.