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United Automobile Workers of America (UAW)

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  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043

    Looks like the State of Nevada has out-porked even the UAW. Each job that *may* be created by Tesla will cost the Nevada taxpayer $78,000 per job in tax breaks. These jobs may not be new jobs either, but more likely jobs that move from one state to another. Oh, and Tesla doesn't pay school taxes either.

    Seems like the american taxpayer gets to choose who extorts them---corporations or unions.


    But some of our friends like Rocky don't believe it is possible to spend too much money on the Green agenda. Even if most of it ends up in billionaire pockets. I see it all as corporate welfare that will never likely benefit the middle class tax payer.

  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,237
    Oh I think "green" will pay off but we are talking longterm here. There's a massive new industry ready to be built around 'green'---it's going to be the Next New Thing to drive the 21st century.

    But not tomorrow morning :)

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  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,676
    edited September 21
    But even if the jobs come from another state, IF the company succeeds, I think it will repay Nevada manyfold for the $78,000 per job it may cost up front...it may be the only way for a company to bring jobs to Nevada other than casino jobs...yes, it is still a gamble (no pun intended), with taxpayer money (altho Nevada has no state income tax, so does the money come from sales taxes and casino taxes???)...and it may cause other support industries to move to Nevada...

    After all, a number of gun manufacturers are leaving their home states (the anti-gun states like NY and others) to move to pro-gun states like TX, AZ and others...if those states are giving the companies incentives to move, bringing skilled folks like gunsmiths may be an improvement over say, the opening of another McDonalds, which will only give us more burger flippers (and after six months of training, they can move up to fries...a la Eddie Murphy/Louis Anderson in Coming to America)...
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,899
    Keep in mind that the incentives are in tiers. Tesla isn't getting the entire $1.5 billion up front. They will be awarded the incentives as they reach milestones and in reality they aren't being handed money. The incentives are based on real estate and corporate tax waivers.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,950
    I'd like to see a credentialed nonpartisan economic analysis of the subsidies. It still kind of resembles goofy American reverse socialism, at least on the surface. And overall, trickle down theory has worked so well. It'd be nice if it works, but I don't know if it is "manyfold", anyway.
    marsha7 said:

    But even if the jobs come from another state,.

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,766
    fintail said:

    I'd like to see a credentialed nonpartisan economic analysis of the subsidies. It still kind of resembles goofy American reverse socialism, at least on the surface. And overall, trickle down theory has worked so well. It'd be nice if it works, but I don't know if it is "manyfold", anyway.

    marsha7 said:

    But even if the jobs come from another state,.

    You may very well be correct that trickle down doesn't work (at least the way in which it has been implemented, but the current evidence is far form a proof since you can't run the experiment both way - i.e., you don't know what would have happened in the alternative scenario. That's why drug trials are double-blinded. Unfortunately we can't do that with a nation's economy.

    And nice to hear from you again!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    You may very well be correct that trickle down doesn't work (at least the way in which it has been implemented, but the current evidence is far form a proof since you can't run the experiment both way - i.e., you don't know what would have happened in the alternative scenario. That's why drug trials are double-blinded. Unfortunately we can't do that with a nation's economy.

    And nice to hear from you again!



    Trickle down has all but been shut off by Keynesian QE and TARP. It starts at the top and stays there. No more trickle down for US lowlifes. Thank you Liberal Oligarchs.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,950
    I am correct. It doesn't work. Every application of it has not produced the desired results, in fact, they've only enabled the chasm to grow via hoarding. By the rest of it, there is really proof of nothing in life. But escaping from the semantics of experiment/hypothesis methodology , it hasn't worked. We're 30 years into the experiment now. Fail.

    And nice to see you again, too :)

    I don't see QE or TARP as greatly impacting failed tax theories. We were yet again sold a bill of goods. Thanks again, so-called right.






    You may very well be correct that trickle down doesn't work (at least the way in which it has been implemented, but the current evidence is far form a proof since you can't run the experiment both way - i.e., you don't know what would have happened in the alternative scenario. That's why drug trials are double-blinded. Unfortunately we can't do that with a nation's economy.

    And nice to hear from you again!

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,766
    And how well has the UAW produced good jobs for the "working man"? Pretty good for a few decades, but then the unsustainability of that little organization finally caught up with it!
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    tlong said:

    And how well has the UAW produced good jobs for the "working man"? Pretty good for a few decades, but then the unsustainability of that little organization finally caught up with it!


    That is a fact. The 600,000 UAW retirees cannot be supported with less than 300,000 workers. The Ponzi scheme that is most pension plans is a failure. More Union Pensions are in critical condition than healthy. The UAW would already be BK if not for the $27B gift from Obama to the UAW.
  • Mr_ShiftrightMr_Shiftright CaliforniaPosts: 45,237
    Why do some folks seem to forget that the corporations which employed the UAW accepted the pension plans? Are we trying to caste corporate management as innocent victims of UAW mugging? Wasn't this more of an agreement between the John and the Lady of the Evening? :)

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  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,766
    edited September 22

    Why do some folks seem to forget that the corporations which employed the UAW accepted the pension plans? Are we trying to caste corporate management as innocent victims of UAW mugging? Wasn't this more of an agreement between the John and the Lady of the Evening? :)

    I don't think anybody has forgotten that. It was a symbiotic set of failures on both sides. The consequences were predictable, especially once some actual foreign competition stepped in. But to some degree, strikes which shut down the company were a form of "mugging". The management had to make the tough choice between short term ("give them what they want" and long term "in the long run this is unsustainable" options). They chose the short-term options, and now we see the end game of the long-term results.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,950
    It's still trendy to only hold one side accountable. I don't know how long the fad will last. It might be kind of an Americanism - don't bash those who hold positions you aspire to.

    Why do some folks seem to forget that the corporations which employed the UAW accepted the pension plans? Are we trying to caste corporate management as innocent victims of UAW mugging? Wasn't this more of an agreement between the John and the Lady of the Evening? :)

  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,950
    edited September 22
    And still a better result than trickle down. Many of the demands were unsustainable, but almost all of the product planning and strategy of the sixty-leven levels of "professionals" in the ivory tower was also unsustainable. Combine them and get a perfect storm.
    tlong said:

    And how well has the UAW produced good jobs for the "working man"? Pretty good for a few decades, but then the unsustainability of that little organization finally caught up with it!

  • berriberri Posts: 4,234
    I believe there was an occasion when trickle down worked. Way back around the Kennedy administration era. Of course back then taxes were much higher than these days, even significantly higher than pre-Reagan. This is the instance I believe that is so frequently used by the trickle down special interests, often in less than full disclosure.

    The auto industry agreed to a lot of this stuff with the UAW going back the days when D3 was an oligopoly or even duopoly. In that environment they could just jack up prices to cover it all. What I find scary these days is how the gov is blindly letting tons of acquisitions and mergers take place potentially moving many industries into that oligopoly mode. The auto industry history should be a warning flare that these excessive market consolidations are not good for the consumer and will hurt the US economy down the road. But money talks when politicians have their hands fully extended.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,950
    Were Kennedy-era tax breaks as widespread and strong as Reaganomics, and the unproven idea behind it? And yes, the taxes were higher then, for everyone. But the average person probably got more for it, too. Today, it has devolved to trickle up.

    The D3 oligopoly wasn't so bad when the product was superior to the competition. But when that slipped...watch out. We might see similar situations to that in cable/telecom, where the big players become arrogant.

    Always remember the real golden rule.
    berri said:

    I believe there was an occasion when trickle down worked. Way back around the Kennedy administration era. Of course back then taxes were much higher than these days, even significantly higher than pre-Reagan. This is the instance I believe that is so frequently used by the trickle down special interests, often in less than full disclosure.

    The auto industry agreed to a lot of this stuff with the UAW going back the days when D3 was an oligopoly or even duopoly. In that environment they could just jack up prices to cover it all. What I find scary these days is how the gov is blindly letting tons of acquisitions and mergers take place potentially moving many industries into that oligopoly mode. The auto industry history should be a warning flare that these excessive market consolidations are not good for the consumer and will hurt the US economy down the road. But money talks when politicians have their hands fully extended.

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,766
    "The D3 oligopoly wasn't so bad when the product was superior to the competition. But when that slipped...watch out. We might see similar situations to that in cable/telecom, where the big players become arrogant."

    I tend to run libertarian, but the one thing I feel government should really do (and isn't doing very well) is to preserve a relatively level playing field and prevent major mergers and oligopoly situations, Which is why I can hardly wait for the disruption in the internet and telecom industry (which will come). Don't get me going about the big banks that are even bigger - you know, the ones that almost sent us into the second great depression. And then there are the original D3 - they were an oligopoly that fell apart with the advent of competition. It was the oligopoly that enabled crappy products and a fat UAW. Fortunately those situations have changed for the better.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,950
    It's coming now - at least one telecom merger was prevented. How long that will last is unknown, but that arena is feeling pressure and is evolving. The government could be doing worse, anyway. Regarding banks, it's not government who controls the FIRE cabal, but the other way around. Petty much all legislation shows who holds the leash. Maybe the real golden rule, again.

    I am still not sold that it was primarily a worker issue when the competition started making in-roads. Supposed managers and cookie cutter cereal box MBA sycophants sure didn't react well, either - and haven't paid nearly the price.
    tlong said:

    "
    I tend to run libertarian, but the one thing I feel government should really do (and isn't doing very well) is to preserve a relatively level playing field and prevent major mergers and oligopoly situations, Which is why I can hardly wait for the disruption in the internet and telecom industry (which will come). Don't get me going about the big banks that are even bigger - you know, the ones that almost sent us into the second great depression. And then there are the original D3 - they were an oligopoly that fell apart with the advent of competition. It was the oligopoly that enabled crappy products and a fat UAW. Fortunately those situations have changed for the better.

  • dieselonedieselone Posts: 5,651
    edited September 24
    What's up guys, haven't been here in a while. I see the conversation hasn't changed much;)

    "Were Kennedy-era tax breaks as widespread and strong as Reaganomics, and the unproven idea behind it?"

    I'd say they were only because if they weren't we wouldn't have the Alternative Minimum Tax. Which BTW I got hit with last year. OUCH, that freakin hurt! And I'm no where near being a 1%'re much less a .01%'re the AMT was initially created for.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    Will the Cadillac split from GM take more UAW jobs? My guess is it will. The largest selling Cadillac SRX is mostly Mexican built. With separation from Detroit Caddy will not feel so obligated to the state.

    General Motors is splitting off its Cadillac luxury brand as a "separate business unit" and relocating its headquarters from Detroit to the trendy SoHo area of New York City next year in a "strategic realignment."

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/09/23/gm-cadillac-separate-business-unit/16093343/
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,196
    Could they move Buick to Philly and put me in charge?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    I think Buick is their biggest seller in China. Buick seems to be doing well here, so probably no changes. Getting out of Michigan seems to be a trend.
  • robr2robr2 BostonPosts: 7,899
    gagrice said:

    Will the Cadillac split from GM take more UAW jobs? My guess is it will. The largest selling Cadillac SRX is mostly Mexican built. With separation from Detroit Caddy will not feel so obligated to the state.

    General Motors is splitting off its Cadillac luxury brand as a "separate business unit" and relocating its headquarters from Detroit to the trendy SoHo area of New York City next year in a "strategic realignment."

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/09/23/gm-cadillac-separate-business-unit/16093343/

    IMHO, you are over reaching. Cadillac is moving about 30 sales and marketing people to SoHo in order to be closer to the customers they covet - premium buyers living in a cosmopolitan city. They have already announced the new flagship sedan will be built in Detroit at the Hamtramck plant and that engineering and styling will stay in Michigan.
  • steverstever Viva Las CrucesPosts: 41,252
    edited September 24
    Did I start something? B)

    No UAW workers around here as far as I can tell.

    Same headline, different "Southern" company and state:

    "The head labor official on Daimler AG's supervisory board says he considers it "unacceptable" that the German automaker's Mercedes plant in Alabama stands alone among the company's factories around the world without union representation for its workers."

    Mercedes Labor Chief Seeks UAW Foothold in Alabama (ABC)

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  • slorenzenslorenzen Posts: 322
    gagrice said:

    I think Buick is their biggest seller in China. Buick seems to be doing well here, so probably no changes. Getting out of Michigan seems to be a trend.

    When I went to Beijing back in 2005, I was amazed at how many Buicks I saw. That and Volkswagen were very popular cars.

    Of course, there were a lots of weird little cars running around that we don't see here or in europe. Mostly HyunKia's...

  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,950
    I think some Germans don't understand the differences between workers and mgt that exist between the US and Germany. I see a lot more friction in one place than the other, and likely, much more of a cooperation from both sides in one place vs the other. Maybe a symptom of the dog eat dog world that we've been told is the best ideal.
    stever said:

    Did I start something? B)

    No UAW workers around here as far as I can tell.

    Same headline, different "Southern" company and state:

    "The head labor official on Daimler AG's supervisory board says he considers it "unacceptable" that the German automaker's Mercedes plant in Alabama stands alone among the company's factories around the world without union representation for its workers."

    Mercedes Labor Chief Seeks UAW Foothold in Alabama (ABC)

  • tlongtlong CaliforniaPosts: 4,766
    fintail said:

    I think some Germans don't understand the differences between workers and mgt that exist between the US and Germany. I see a lot more friction in one place than the other, and likely, much more of a cooperation from both sides in one place vs the other. Maybe a symptom of the dog eat dog world that we've been told is the best ideal.


    More like we are going to the dogs.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    robr2 said:

    gagrice said:

    Will the Cadillac split from GM take more UAW jobs? My guess is it will. The largest selling Cadillac SRX is mostly Mexican built. With separation from Detroit Caddy will not feel so obligated to the state.

    General Motors is splitting off its Cadillac luxury brand as a "separate business unit" and relocating its headquarters from Detroit to the trendy SoHo area of New York City next year in a "strategic realignment."

    http://www.usatoday.com/story/money/cars/2014/09/23/gm-cadillac-separate-business-unit/16093343/

    IMHO, you are over reaching. Cadillac is moving about 30 sales and marketing people to SoHo in order to be closer to the customers they covet - premium buyers living in a cosmopolitan city. They have already announced the new flagship sedan will be built in Detroit at the Hamtramck plant and that engineering and styling will stay in Michigan.

    The article says they will have a 100 people and only 30 will re-locate from Detroit. To me splitting means just that. See ya GM we are outta here. And with their largest seller SRX mostly made in Mexico, I really wonder. Though NYC does not seem a likely place for engineering to move. With Cadillac sales in the dumpster, it makes you wonder if this is the last gasp.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 29,043
    stever said:

    Did I start something? B)

    No UAW workers around here as far as I can tell.

    Same headline, different "Southern" company and state:

    "The head labor official on Daimler AG's supervisory board says he considers it "unacceptable" that the German automaker's Mercedes plant in Alabama stands alone among the company's factories around the world without union representation for its workers."

    Mercedes Labor Chief Seeks UAW Foothold in Alabama (ABC)


    The German labor leaders are wanting to beat down the US competition. They don't like the fact they are losing market share with factories all over the World. I don't think the US MB management will be quite as easy as VW USA.
  • marsha7marsha7 Posts: 3,676
    Speaking of Cadillac, I walked past an ATS the other day, and I looked at the brakes thru the alloy wheel (I always like to see if they have Brembo brakes)...I was SHOCKED to see rear DRUM brakes on the car...when I mentioned this to my local service place (Goodyear) they looked up the car and it noted that it had something like 7 inch by 2 inch rear brake shoes, which was the size brakes Ford used to put on the Falcon (if you are old enough to remember that car)...How does a Cadillac get de-contented with drum brakes on the rear???...and they expect me to buy it???...I thought drum brakes were still installed on Yugos, but Cadillacs???
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