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Acura TL 2009

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Comments

  • ctlctl Posts: 123
    Why being so mean to this guy? all he did was copy the comment of this article, TL SH-AWD (as sporty claimed as it's) is just so happened to be listed at #1. Camry at #10

    Toyota Camry
    Take rate: 3 percent
    Odds of a manual Camry being sold: 1237 to 1
    Odds of being dealt a full house: 694 to 1
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,896
    edited June 2010
    My comments are regarding the article - seriously, it was about 50/50 interesting vs "so what?" in my opinion. Camry is one of the "so what?" vehicles on the list. Yes, they make a manual Camry. No, it isn't at all surprising that it doesn't sell well.

    None of my comments had anything to do with the person who posted the article. Anyone who thinks that my comments were "mean" may need to seek medical attention for extreme sensitivity to internet-based comment exposure. I doubt that's the case with our OP!

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  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,162
    I did not take kirstie host comments as a direct hit-- I find it refreshing when they actually respond via blog and not delete my posts like in the past. For a "performance" sedan i found it funny that only 5% come in stick form--and so did MotorTREND .

    BILLYPERKS my point is we all know whos buying these cars- people who have moved up from camry's (ES350's) and buicks-- or other cars that rarely sell manuals.. Sorry Kristie I thought the article was more then 50/50 interesting because they were about the car in question in this blog..

    and Billy I have no idea how many infinti G's come standard--but if you look online at your local dealership they prob have atleast one on the lot --and those odds are better then 6305 to 1.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,693
    I'm a big fan of the previous generation TL & haven't warmed up to the current generation's "polarizing styling." I started to like how the SH-AWD models looked. Then yesterday I saw a black/black TL SH-AWD (sorry graphic guy, not your cup of tea) with the acessory Sport Grill and said to myself: "now that's sharp."

    I've been reading up on the TL SH-AWD w/ 6 speed stick and am impressed by both what I read from the road tests as well as owner feedback.

    Now I'm a huge BMW fan, but for me the 3er is too small and the 5 is way out of my price range. I'm going to give the TL SH-AWD 6MT a serious look when it comes time for me to purchase my next car, which won't be for at least a year.

    My daily driver is a 2001 Honda Prelude Type SH - 5spd manual (122K miles & counting), My wife drives a 2010 TSX Tech - 5spd automatic (12K miles & counting). My wife also leases an '07 X3 that has to go back to BMW :cry: at the end of next month with 45K miles.

    Performance wise, I think handling is the most important thing to me. My next car's gotta have some cajones too as my Prelude's 156 lb ft of torque isn't much in the age of mid- 6 second (0-60) Camrys, Altimas, Maximas...

    Interior material quality and overall build quality are also VERY important to me. I'm more than willing to sacrifice some ride comfort for better handling.

    Of course I have to drive it, but from the Prelude & my TSX, I'm very impressed with the way Honda builds a car.

    Your thread has a new lurker/poster. Maybe I'll have 2 Black/Black Acuras in my driveway next year.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    edited June 2010
    I exempt any hot dog served at a sporting event from that description. Those are made only of tasty, meaty goodness - a fan-tastic, fan-pleasing delight.

    Kirstie...you're killing me here, girl. You just gave me a grin. Actually, I agree with you regarding ball park "dogs". But, only if they've been cleansed with bacteria killing lotion. ;)

    I think manual trans cars in general are dying a slow death. Even Lambos and Ferraris are going the way of auto trans vehicles.

    People who can afford to buy the likes of a TL, BMW, Benz, Audi, etc for the most part expect an automatic trans. Yeah, you'll hear of someone here and there who prefers a manual, but they're rarities.

    Fact is, manumatic transmissions have become very, very good, for the most part. The TL's is one of those. If fewer and fewer people know how to drive a manual trans, the fewer people there are to teach someone else how to drive one, then even less folks bother to learn.

    Even among muscle cars, I remember my former Chevy dealer telling me that automatic equipped Camaros were outselling manual trans Camaros 20-1. And, that's for a car with a dedicated manual trans fan base.

    I'm pretty good with a manual trans having done autox and bracket racing in the distant past. There's no way I can shift faster than a good auto trans can shift. Recent auto trans cars have rev matching, quick shift paddles, no clutch take up worries. They've become very good which blunts the need for a manual trans.

    I keep hearing that BMW, Infiniti, etc make manual trans cars, I just haven't seen any of them available. I have seen TL's with the 6 MT. They don't last long on the dealer's lots. That said, the market is miniscule for manual trans cars, period.

    Even folks who are on a tight budget, who tend to buy base economy cars, will pay extra for an automatic transmission.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    edited June 2010
    nyc....sorry, I posted the above before seeing your post.

    Black interior is what I've decided to stay away from since it gets very steamy around the midwest. I think the Black (crystal black pearl) is very sharp....especially with the midnight chrome grill and tailpiece.

    I did drive the manual trans TL SH AWD as my dealer had a couple available when I was shopping. They're great, great manual trans cars. Probably the most refined manual trans lux sports sedan I had ever driven, bar none. You should drive one and form your own opinion.

    But, we're getting to the end of the model year for Acura (August? Sept?). If you want a 2010, and you can find a manual trans car, I think I might jump on one because I'd bet the initial shipments of '11s won't be manual trans cars.
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,693
    I know the manumatic slushboxes are getting better & better. The 5 speed automatic in my wife's TSX is the best I've ever driven. For my own car, I really want to stick with a stick for no other reason than I enjoy shifting my own gears. Can modern day automatics shift faster than me? Yes. Can they shift smoother than me? Absolutely.

    I'm not in the market for a car right now. We're in the middle of trying to buy ahouse right now & I want to get comfortable making mortgage payments for at least a year before I even start car shopping. Besides, my aforementioned 2001 Prelude Type SH is wonderful for now. 122K miles and still as tight as the day I picked it up.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,162
    here is the link again
    http://www.motortrend.com/features/consumer/1004_10_cars_you_didnt_know_you_coul- d_get_with_a_stick/index.html

    no BMW, Infinitis, on this list== seems motor trend hit it on the head when they put a Camry and BUick on the same list as Acura. Your arguement should be look the A5 is on the list-- but my counter would be is the S4/S5 on the list? A True sports car?

    And automatics will always out sell manuals-- always in america -but for BMW and infiniti you will get a number of people looking to get into manuals -those numbers are no where near 6300 to one. -- Acura well built safe car but its not a sports sedan-and does not live up to its comp in performance- please find me an article by a major publication that says otherwise.
  • jtlajtla Posts: 375
    There's no way I can shift faster than a good auto trans can shift. Recent auto trans cars have rev matching, quick shift paddles, no clutch take up worries. They've become very good which blunts the need for a manual trans.

    IMHO, the real difference in driving a stick vs. automatic is that YOU -- not the car/computer -- get to decide WHEN to shift gears.

    With your eyes on the road and dictated by your mood, your brain tells your right hand and left foot how to maneuver next. No automatic (or manumatic, steptronic, or whatever fancy name) can ever match that until engineers can connect the control of shifting mechanism to human mind. Paddle shifters may come close if only the time lag can be eliminated.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,162
    totally agree. its more control,ts reflexes, its totally different. I think the reason why acura continues with the stick is to try to differentiate itself from buick/lexus but performance enthusiasts have not been duped.
  • ctlctl Posts: 123
    edited June 2010
    and anyone who speaks with such tone is fit to be a host?? never see this anywhere else, really...

    Anyone who thinks that my comments were "mean" may need to seek medical attention for extreme sensitivity

    Maybe I should have clarified that the "mean" feeling was after a series of "not-positive" collective responses to sween's post, and not directed to just one person or just kristie's comment.

    but still, not sure who needs medical attention here... I can give one if anyone needs it :)



    My comments are regarding the article - seriously, it was about 50/50 interesting vs "so what?" in my opinion. Camry is one of the "so what?" vehicles on the list. Yes, they make a manual Camry. No, it isn't at all surprising that it doesn't sell well.

    None of my comments had anything to do with the person who posted the article. Anyone who thinks that my comments were "mean" may need to seek medical attention for extreme sensitivity to internet-based comment exposure. I doubt that's the case with our OP!
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    edited June 2010
    jt....I hear you.

    But, the numbers of cars you can buy with manual transmissions (regardless of whether or not you can actually find them on dealer lots) seems to me to be dwindling every year. At some point, the manufacturers have to decide whether those numbers are enough to warrant continued production of them, at least in this country.

    In the sports lux category, manual trans cars may be stipulated as being produced. Good luck finding them, though.

    I know when I was shopping, the only manual trans Audi I found was an A5 (not the A4) in my entire state. I could have swung a helluva deal on it, too as the dealership was honest in saying Audi forced them to take a manual trans car. They know it would take a long time to sell it (it had been there 5 months when I looked at it 3 months ago....it's still there). It wasn't a weird color (it was black with black interior) or optioned strangely either. It was a pretty straight forward A5 that they couldn't move because of the manual trans. I could have made a great deal on it, if that's what I wanted.

    Same when I looked at the Benz C300 lux sports sedan I looked at Sales person said they're available, as a special order from the factory. But, they hadn't stocked them as general inventory for 3 years.

    Good luck finding a new BMW with a manual trans on the dealer's lot. I'm sure they're out there. They're just extremely hard to find and not big movers.

    I love a good manual trans car. I've been eyeballing a pristine manual trans '98 Mustang Cobra Convertible with ~20K miles that one of my friends has for sale. He bought it new. Always garaged, never seen rain, nor snow. Totally optioned up. Just a real cream puff. Now, that's a perfect car that has a manual trans.

    (if I could only get him to be realistic on the price).

    In my lux sports sedans, I prefer manumatics (as it seems the vast majority do). I know the one in the TL is a very good one. I've become used to downshifting into corners with the paddle shifters on mine, then blasting out the other end of a sweeper.

    ctl....kirstie doesn't need me to defend her. But, I disagree with your assessment of her as a host (she's witty, funny, likes to mix it up). I do believe somehow, there seems to be some very sensitive folks here regarding her post. I didn't find it condescending, nor mean spirited at all. Just sayin'!
  • billyperks2billyperks2 Posts: 378
    In my lux sports sedans, I prefer manumatics (as it seems the vast majority do). I know the one in the TL is a very good one. I've become used to downshifting into corners with the paddle shifters on mine, then blasting out the other end of a sweeper.

    I try to baby mines because I plan on keeping her for the long term but when going around corners or merging on to the freeways, the manumatic turns the car into a beast.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H Posts: 10,896
    relax, hombre. Really. Relax. You're reading way too much into my comments, namely the one you picked out - t'was meant in a humorous manner.

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  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 7,693
    Numbers continue to dwindle, auto makers still see a small market for MT cars in the USA & continue to offer them. Finding them on a dealer's lot might be a whole other issue. I'm pretty sure every 4 door G37 in the ny/nj/ct area is of the X variety - auto only.

    When I picked up my wife's TSX, there was ONE sitting on the lot - white/black/tech.

    If it is out there, and I want one, I'll find it.

    My problem with the paddle shifters is that I know there's a torque converter that doesn't like when I redline the car.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Subaru Legacy 2.5i Premium

  • jtlajtla Posts: 375
    edited June 2010
    Unfortunately, the number of MT buyers and the availability of MT cars is in a vicious cycle. There aren't enough MT buyer to warrant dealers to stock on MT cars; with the few cars on the lots there is virtually no selection (colors/options) for MT buyers. You almost always have to resort to special ordering one to get what you want -- if you can wait or plan ahead.

    As to manumatic and paddle shifters, besides the time lag and the torque converter as nyccarguy mentioned, it drives me crazy that you have to go from gear 6 to 5-4-3-2 when cornering. Even though it may not actually shift through each gear, those tapping (and counting in head) just kills all the fun. :(
  • gbosilgbosil Posts: 88
    I agree about the paddle shifters. I have a 2007 TLS with Paddle Shifters basically as a compromise for my wife to drive it. I am a MT Guy all the way. The Paddle Shifters suck! There is a lag in between shifts up or down and they are just NOT FUN! Acura needs to improve the functionality of the Paddle Shifters. Nothing like a MT that ties the driver to the car! Paddle Shifters take out all the fun! :(
  • rlonn1rlonn1 Posts: 106
    I drove a 4 speed 1965 Chevy Camaro, YELLOW, when I was in high school back in the 60's. Over the years since then and a lot of Big City stop and go driving , convinced me to go with a more relaxing Automatic. However you may want to try the SH-AWD and the paddle shifters. For me these are a BLAST and a lot of fun, as it takes me back to having that control. The Paddle Shifters and how they respond are totally new for 2009-10. I find them very fast on the shift... I took it down to Qualcomm Stadium here in San Diego (Chargers Football)... and put the TL through its paces.. When I was GOOD at using a manual I was Real Fast, and it is FUN for sure, but at 62, having the luxury of a super smooth Automatic, a "S" mode and also the Paddles, just is a sweet combination of all three! BTW, some may feel that the "S" mode means paddles, not true. In S mode it is still automatic but holds the gear a bit longer based on acceleration and torque. However once you hit the paddles in "S" it does not shift till you tell it to shift, but it will shift from 2 to 1 if you are coming to a stop for safety reason... It may also shift out at redline, but i always shift at 750 RPM BELOW red line! :blush: :blush: :) :)
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    edited June 2010
    manumatics are compromises without a doubt. However, as most point out, the market for manual trans cars is minute. Hell, even I wouldn't mind owning one again in the form of the TL SH AWD. Loved driving the one I test drove. Truth is, I the auto version and the manual version are so good, I would be happy to live with either (actually, I do :) ;) )

    I'm not so certain I'd be one to drive a manual trans on a day-to-day basis. I've had them in muscle cars, in the first BMW I owned, and in Japan based sports cars. Fun on weekends. Fun in good weather. Day-to-day? Not so much, especially in traffic, in bad weather, etc.

    Just my opinion, of course.

    I don't see availability ever getting better, and probably leaving the U.S. based luxury cars entirely at some point.

    As an example of how good automatics have become, I remember reading one of the trade rags a little while ago where they tested an automatic 'vette vs a manual trans 'vette. The automatic 'vette was faster.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,162
    faster is not always better as pointed out by other TL owners --sport is about driving and not cruising, its about driver feel and not only how the car performs but how it looks and how it reacts - I find it funny when people talk about traffic and how it sucks to have a manual-- sure its more work but if you get a good car with a slick stick (like acura offers) its not bad at all to deal with--2nd gear and some clutch work all you need- no break needed if done right- and you have your daily driver.
    I know the economy stinks but acura introduced this car as the 2009 model and they sold 33k cars --new model mind you --sure honda sales in 2009 were down 20% y/y -- but in 2004-06 (3 yrs) it sold 75k on avg.- its clear that most performance lux car buyers are not looking at the brand- even with the great lease rates and commercials about how safe they are. (do the math on manuals from my previous post-- they are rare in TL form almost as rare as finding a BP supporter outside tony haywards family) So i would conclude that acura might depart from manuals quicker then other U.S. based lux brands and concentrate on Lexus not BMW (or have they already done this and not told the owners??) I think lux makers that support the sport market will continue to offer manuals (in limited form).

    here is the data from 09

    http://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/american-honda-december-sales-up-156-per- cent-80720207.html
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    edited June 2010
    It will take awhile to move in the direction Acura wants to move. My perception, as I've mentioned before, is that the TL is positioned as a "tweener". It's between a BMW 3 and 5 series (closer in 5 series size and performance, but closer to the 3 series in price), between an Audi A4 and A6 (same comparison to BMW).

    You could probably make that same comparison between the Infiniti G and M, although the M is available in a V8 (where the Acura RL was going before the Honda cutbacks), and the G is moving down market with the G25. Given the announcement for the G25, I see it competing more in the Buick Regal sandbox.

    Given that Acura revamped their entire lineup in the last 2-3 years, based on the interviews I've heard with their execs, they knew it was going to take a little while for the dramatic changes to be accepted. That being said, I see next year as being a nice one for them.

    Regarding manual trans, good luck finding a manual trans BMW, Audi, Mercedes on a dealer's lot. You'd probably have better luck finding a manual trans Acura TL than any of those other brands.

    A Lexus buyer is substantially different than those who'd buy any of the brands above. The Lexus buyer would not like the ride of any of those car brands, regardless of how well they handle.

    Lexus' target was Buick (probably Cadillac, too). They hit a bulls-eye. Now, GM/Buick is hitting back. Again, I don't see much cross shopping with those and Acura/BMW/Mercedes/Audi/Infiniti and Buick/Lexus.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    While I agree with you on almost all points graphic, I have always felt that of the 3 main German luxury companies, Mercedes as been pretty close to Lexus in regards to soft ride, less precise handling (compared to Audi and especially BMW) and more focused on luxury comfort then sport performance like Audi and BMW are!

    if anything, I think the luxury cross shopping goes as follows:

    Mercedes-Lexus-Buick

    BMW-Audi-Infiniti

    with Cadillac and Acura kind of thrown in between all these depending on what model Acura or Cadillac people are considering!

    just my two cents!
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,162
    Why the new TSX wagon? Do they have another car in the pipeline that would "advance" the line ? Because if not those growing pains will continue.

    Bring back the legend, integra, nsx - Acura has lost its vigor.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    smarty .....I can see how your grouping may very well be how those brands perceive themselves.

    No big disagreement, except that I could see a Mercedes buyer looking at a Cadillac....maybe a Buick....probably cross shop a Lexus, too.

    BMW/Audi/Infiniti, more or less is where Acura plays. Again, the size and performance of a 5 series, A6, or M series, for the price of a 3 series, A4 or a G.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    yeap, exactly what I was talking about! Cadillac and Acura are cross shopped among all the other luxury brands depending on what model your looking at! I know that because of how many comparisons, awards, etc the MDX gets, that is cross shopped with a lot of other luxury SUVs!
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,162
    MDX is a nice rig- but its not the flagship to a brand. Whats acuras next move to make it stand out in the lux car market? Graphguy you said that the CEO was optimistic on the future, and said that next year will be a good year--but why? Buick (advertising on this very page) will undercut them on price and offer similar fwd performance on sedans. They will struggle to gain share but its a viable option if your looking to buy a car and not lease one. Lexus has its "brand", BMW has it on performance, Infiniti on its diverse line of cars, Audi on its performance/german heritage. whats the next move for acura?
    My feel is they need a sports car-- a Viable flagship with a V8-- A coupe a convertible and a hybrid- bring back the legend (coupe and sedan). Stop recycling the same cars (accords) and put out something that puts it on the leader board and not a company like the atlanta braves- sure good competitive team but never wins the ring.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    smarty...I think the MDX is actually the very definition of the luxury SUV segment more than any of the other lux SUVs on the market.

    sween....Acura made it's bones with arguably the best 6 cyl engines on the market throughout their existence. They've either delayed or canceled the V8 they had planned for the RL. While another NSX would be exciting, it would be a very low volume car. Even the previous one came with a 6 cyl.

    V8s are falling out of favor except in the muscle cars and the largest SUVs.

    The Acura Prez wants to have the brand be viewed as leading edge compared to the competition of BMWs, Mercedes, etc. I had a video interview with him a couple of months ago, but can't remember where I saw it.

    Again, seems like you like the Buick. Not my cup of tea, and haven't heard anyone except you who would cross shop the Acura with a Buick, but to each their own.
  • sweendogysweendogy Left lanePosts: 1,162
    graphicguy,

    best 6cly engines in the market thats an interesting statement-- where can they prove that- or can you provide documentation that this is the case? They delayed the V8 prob because they could not sell a RL - while the NSX did prove to be a low volume car-the line did use its technology (like the Vtec) and incorporate it into other cars-they also cut back on indi racing- Lexus now has a supercar- at a stupid price - toyota has its nascar backing-- nissan has a supercar and a Z car-- BMW has the M line-- Audi the S line (plus racing)- and Benz has AMG.

    I agree with you on V8's are now "falling out of favor" as the ford taurus sho commercials tell you, but to be a true lux car you need a standard V8 (atleast one). Each one of the flagships have one.. except the RL.

    To say the acura prez wants to have a brand leading view - i would agree that the brand has great technology - the AWD is interesting but nothing its comp doesnt offer-- great nav i'm guessing hes talking about..none of which comes to power or performance-and its styling is one that only the CEO would love.

    Standard TL shoppers are looking a buick dont kid yourself..

    I'll be into Buick in maybe 10 years -and in my mid 40's..while i'm cross shopping it against Acura- the buick folks are noticing (look to your right, another laCrosse ad) i woundn't knock the car if i was you- its the same as the standard TL just better looking. :shades:
  • jtlajtla Posts: 375
    edited June 2010
    sweendogy, I got to agree with graphicguy that few people in the market for performance sedan would cross-shop Buick with Acura/Audi/BMW/Infiniti, maybe not even Lexus buyers.

    You often mentioned Buick, but have you driven a LaCrosse or Regal yet? While Buick may have improved with these new models, it is hard to imagine that its cars suddenly are on par with those segment leaders in terms of quality and performance. Even if initial data looks good, the long term reliability and resale value are still big question marks.

    You said that you will be into Buick in 10 years. Wondering why wait that long if you think so highly of it? I found it especially interesting because, like you, I also drive the Infiniti G. I just can't see how a G owner would want to move into a Buick. The only GM car I would consider is the Cadillac CTX -- a RWD sedan.

    C&D just had a comparison test among Huyndai Genesis, Lexus ES350, Buick LaCrosse, and Ford Taurus Limited (not SHO), and they finished in that order. C&D did a good job in picking these contestants. IMO, that's the group Buick belongs to.
  • graphicguygraphicguy SW OhioPosts: 7,275
    sween....no dice on the Vigor, Integra, etc. That's a step backwards for Acura. I can see perhaps bringing back the Legend name, as it has some name recognition. But in reality, it's still going to be the same engineering, same drivetrain, same car underneath as they're selling today. I remember all of those cars of yesteryear being way too conservatively styled for my tastes, though.

    jt...I keep forgetting to put the Genesis as a Buick competitor. While I don't lend much credence to the trade rags as few of them drive the same way I do, they're fun to read.

    While I did test drive the Genesis, I can see it as a competitor to the Lexus, Buick, probably a Cadillac, too.

    Again, anyone looking for a lux sports sedan probably isn't going to like the Genesis. If they like the Lexus, or the Buick, then I can see looking at the Genesis, too. I have a business acquaintance who has an '09. He loves his.
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