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Chevy Tahoe/GMC Yukon Hybrid

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Comments

  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,719
    "But if it's been decided that it's for the good of society as a whole - and it's done lawfully - then those being forced to comply with what the majority wishes is just being in a minority. There's nothing unusual here."

    Off to the races again! The right of the minority to be free of "tyranny of the majority" is a well established rule of law in the US.

    Just out of curiosity (purely hypothetical), what would you do if the majority - i.e., Congress - passed a law making it against the law to sell hybrids, or perhaps a national referendum had the same results? Not a pleasant thought from any perspective.
  • galvanggalvang Posts: 156
    I have fairly strong agreement to your points unfortunetly some individuals in this board have a twisted mind set on our alternative energy needs. The bottomline our government needs to step in and take the lead on this and work together with the auto manufactures to resolve this.

    For those who say that these issues take care by themselves are really ignorant.

    Alternative energies in the long term is about saving american lives, enhancing our national security, econmic security and Al gore's environnment. :shades:

    These new technologies on alternative energy will bring new jobs with new prosperity just as the internet did in the last decade. Energy Efficiency is a also part of this equation where these new hybrids will help use less fossil fuels till new one alternative solutions spring up in the near future.

    GM should of introduced the diesel first but I believe the reason they went with hybrid is because of emissions. Diesel is still too dirty but finally new cleaner diesel engines are being introduced. The Germans such as Mercedes, Audi, VW have recently introduced them. Honda is next and they did it with out using "Urea".

    Next step is integrating both technologies to get the double whammy effect of fuel efficiency. It may be initially expensive but I'm sure the prices as these technologies mature will go down. Other technogies in the wing all Plug- in electric car with some exotic battery technology or the infamous Hydrogen fuel cell. Exciting future ahead and the auto corporations along with the government need to work together to resolve our energy needs for our future.
  • nedzelnedzel Posts: 787
    "GM and other car mfg. are setting up the hybrid to be a failure. They are being heavily subsidized by the oil companies to not to proceed with fuel efficent vehicles."

    That is completely false. GM, Ford, and most other car manufacturers are public companies. So are the oil companies. They make statements to their shareholders every quarter. I suggest that you read their quarterly reports and look for such payments. There aren't any.

    GM, Ford, and all the other manufacturers are doing everything they can to improve the mileage of vehicles while building vehicles that people want to buy. The fact of the matter is that, until the last couple years, most people in the US didn't want to drive small, fuel efficient vehicles. More people in the US now want small vehicles, but not everyone. And it takes several years for the manufacturers to bring new models to market.

    The most efficient way to improve the fuel economy of the US fleet is to increase fuel taxes and rationalize the diesel emissions regulations. There is a significant price elasticity to the demand for fuel. We should work with human nature, rather than trying (via CAFE) to force manufacturers to build cars that people don't want to buy.

    Finally, hybrids work pretty well on small cars in city traffic. But they are not simple technology. Witness the fact that the car company with the most proven hybrid cars, Toyota, has pretty much failed in their efforts to build larger hybrids. The Highlander, Camry, and LS600h hybrids have all had disappointing economy. That isn't because of some back room deal. That's because hybrids are hard to engineer.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,719
    "The Highlander, Camry, and LS600h hybrids have all had disappointing economy. That isn't because of some back room deal. That's because hybrids are hard to engineer."

    I don't think the Camry Hybrid is that disappointing. Most people are reporting Mid-30's, while having V6 acceleration levels. That is better than the I4 Camry.
  • peraltaperalta Posts: 94
    In my book, Toyota is very successful in large hybrid like the highlander. My 2006 highlander hybrid AWD is consistently getting more than 30 miles per gallon on every fill up at the pump, regardless if it is city or highway driving.

    Compare that to an average of less than 20 miles per gallon on the non hybrid version.

    That is a realistic increase of more than 50% in fuel economy. That even beats the compacts cars that I used to drive in the past.
  • galvanggalvang Posts: 156
    "That is completely false. GM, Ford, and most other car manufacturers are public companies. So are the oil companies. They make statements to their shareholders every quarter. I suggest that you read their quarterly reports and look for such payments. There aren't any."

    My statement was an opinion and belief. Do you have any facts to substantiate otherwise?? :mad: With this in mind... .

    I have worked in corporations all my life, almost 30yrs, what corporations say to shareholders are sometimes exagurated and sometimes outright lies. Most have been truthful but one or two have been almost criminal. I usually take corporation statements with a grain of salt and with a little skeptism. Hence Enron, Tyco, and others. So.... .

    Do the quarterly reports show how the car manufactures and oil spend in lobbying efforts in doing everything they can to block legislation to improve efficiency on vehicles. NO. Do the quarterly reports (10q) show the back room deals that went on with oil industry and the white house, No. The quarterly reports only show what is legal for them to report to their shareholders. It does not report any unethical activity or behind the scene deals or any other activity that would benefit soley the suspect corporations.

    I have nothing against government backroom deals as long the intent is to improve the majority "we the people".

    Agreed, Toyota is arguably ahead in the game on hybrids in terms of cost. Although GM did a nice job with the Tahoe/Yukon with the dual mode hybrid. Thats why I'm on this board. For larger trucks and SUVs, diesels will probably improve the highway mileage while Hybrids will improve mostly in city driving. Toyota already acknowledged that they see that hybrids will be a standard for all vehicles in the future. Minimal cost adder for hybrids, Toyota stated recently.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,681
    According to the Chevrolet website the Tahoe Hybrid was due fall of 2007. I think it is fall and have not seen any. Edmund's do not have them listed. Not that I would even consider buying one. I would like to hear from an early adopter.
  • nedzelnedzel Posts: 787
    "My statement was an opinion and belief."

    Based on zero evidence.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,719
    "Compare that to an average of less than 20 miles per gallon on the non hybrid version.

    That is a realistic increase of more than 50% in fuel economy. That even beats the compacts cars that I used to drive in the past."

    Yes, but compare it to the Honda CR-V, which gets about 22-24 in town and from 30 MPG (@ 60-65 MPH) to 26 MPG (@ 80 MPH). The increase is not as significant. (CR-V numbers based on Edmunds Forum reports).

    Also, many people are not getting that kind of MPG from the HH.

    Compare the prices of these two vehicles to get a feel for the value over the normal ownership of the vehicles based on initial costs and gasoline costs, plus estimated resale...
  • peraltaperalta Posts: 94
    I know that the CR-V and Highlander have been crossed shopped by many but these are different classes of vehicles.

    I have driven the CR-V and it is underpowered. The real city driving (NYC) is below 20 MPG. The highway is good at about 26-29 MPG. Tank average from combined driving about 23 MPG.

    Compare it to my Highlander hybrid which has a V8-like power and a 4 cy;inder fuel economy. It's not really a comparison since it is also more expensive, more luxurious, has all the most advanced stability control package.

    My combined city/highway mielage is 31 MPG. Highway mileage maybe about the same compared to CR-V but that's about it. It is very powerful, low road noise, very comfortable, and has excellent city mileage, sometimes approaching more than 40 MPG on some trips.
  • galvanggalvang Posts: 156
    "According to the Chevrolet website the Tahoe Hybrid was due fall of 2007. I think it is fall and have not seen any. Edmund's do not have them listed. Not that I would even consider buying one. I would like to hear from an early adopter."

    GM is saying next month (Nov) for the Tahoe/Yukon Hybrid. We'll see.

    MPG- 20MPG is good for this type of truck (Tahoe/Yukon Hybrid). Compare this to my former gas-a hog Nissan Armada 12-13MPG all round. Even to my current truck the Honda Ridgeline 17MPG all round.

    Smaller SUVs are always a good bet for gas mileage. My second upcoming (next year) maybe a small SUV RAV4, VW Tiguan looks interesting. A diesel Tiguan would fit the bill quite nicely. I'd be interested to see those MPG numbers for that one. Looks pretty nice indeed. CRV is nice but definitely a chic car.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,681
    Of the smaller CUVs you mention, the Tiquan Diesel would be the only one I would have considered. Now that I bit the bullet and bought a gas guzzler Sequoia, I will not entertain buying another vehicle for at least a couple years. This is the time to buy a fullsized SUV. The savings will more than pay the difference in gas cost for the life of the vehicle.

    I saved $10k on my Sequoia. At $3 per gallon for gas it will buy over 3000 gallons of gas. More than I will use in 6-8 years at 15 MPG. You have to crunch the numbers before you pay a big premium to save fuel.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,719
    I realize you like your HH, and I congratulate you on your purchase. However, I DID cross shop them, and found the CR-V superior (to the ICE version, at the time HH wasn't present).

    The whole point is that it IS less expensive, it HAS an I4 rather than V6, has a lot of usable space for 5 passengers, and I personally found the acceleration and handling to be superior. If an absolutely loaded CR-V EX-L / NAV is 27500, and a loaded HH is 37000, that is almost 10K difference - buys a lot of gas. And after 10 years the CR-V will probably have better resale (though you may not keep your cars that long), because after 10 years / 150K (in NY state) the hybrid parts will no longer have warranty coverage.

    BTW, I got about 21 MPG in town, in LA traffic. Never drove in New York, a hybrid might make more sense there.

    I hope you will pardon my posts; I'm still upset with Toyota for putting a V6 in the HH instead of an I4 - just imagine the MPG with the HSD and an I4 (at least as an option)! You are driving in NYC, and I don't think that in such terrain the two extra cylinders of the V6 add much value, especially in traffic - but they do require fuel to run. :confuse:
  • peraltaperalta Posts: 94
    By the way, I got my Highlander Hybrid for invoice price at 31K. I know how to wheel and deal. I even helped lots of friends purchase theirs for invoice price.

    I am glad to have a V6 since my drive to work is hilly terrain, >90% highway.

    I also had a 2006 Honda Civic hybrid before and it was obviously underpowered going up those hills. Fuel economy suffered on the hills. The highlander hybrid fuel economy and performance is not affected going up and down the hills.

    For a second car, I traded my HCH-2. I ended up with a Subaru outback and cancelled my order for a CR-V (AWD version) since the outback has slight advantage in fuel economy.

    I think, the best Toyota can make is a RAV-4 with TCH drivetrain plus a rear motor. I would say this will attain 33 MPG city and 39 MPG highway, oombined of 35.

    And if I drive, maybe I can squeeze 39 MPG from it.

    I tried to drive the outback to work. It is able to attain a round trip of 30 MPG on an ideal traffic conditions (no traffic jams, no crowded streets). However, by the time I refuel, the tank average is 23-25 MPG. Those intersections, traffic lights, crowded streets, traffic jams really do add up and kill your fuel economy.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAPosts: 3,719
    "think, the best Toyota can make is a RAV-4 with TCH drivetrain plus a rear motor. I would say this will attain 33 MPG city and 39 MPG highway, oombined of 35."

    Yes, a Rav-4 with HSD would be awesome, but it might pull sales away from HH, and where would they put the batteries?

    Actually, CR-V and Highlander buyers don't tend to mix - Honda engineers for stiffer ride, smaller engines, and road feel, while Toyota engineers for ride quality and power. Different philosophies entirely...
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    "GM and other car mfg. are setting up the hybrid to be a failure. They are being heavily subsidized by the oil companies to not to proceed with fuel efficent vehicles."

    That is completely false. GM, Ford, and most other car manufacturers are public companies. So are the oil companies. They make statements to their shareholders every quarter. I suggest that you read their quarterly reports and look for such payments. There aren't any.

    I have to agree that this is false because the one industry is dependent on the other for its survival. When one, the oil industry, jacked the pricing after Katrina the sales of the other went into the dumps. Collaborators wouldn't have done that to each other.

    GM, Ford, and all the other manufacturers are doing everything they can to improve the mileage of vehicles while building vehicles that people want to buy. The fact of the matter is that, until the last couple years, most people in the US didn't want to drive small, fuel efficient vehicles. More people in the US now want small vehicles, but not everyone. And it takes several years for the manufacturers to bring new models to market.

    Again no disagreement.

    The most efficient way to improve the fuel economy of the US fleet is to increase fuel taxes and rationalize the diesel emissions regulations. There is a significant price elasticity to the demand for fuel. We should work with human nature, rather than trying (via CAFE) to force manufacturers to build cars that people don't want to buy.

    Again agreed, but - HUGE BUT - taxing fuel works very very well as shown in Europe. But to make it work it has to be painful. An additional $2/gal painful. Even if it's phased in it's got to reach a painful level to be effective.

    BUT... do you realize just how much money this will take out of circulation every single day? It's nearly ONE BILLION DOLLARS every day - forever - that goes into the Fed Govts coffers. Gone. And it's after-tax money. If like most you drive 15000 miles a year and average 20 mpg then you're buying 750 gal a year. That's $1500 additional taxes you'd be paying. Now multiply that by 150 Million drivers, not to mention businesses, and it's probably $300-$400 Billion taken out of our pockets at the pump every time we go there. Talk about a drain on the economy. That's money that currently goes to rent, food, clothes, vacations, schooling, etc.

    Finally, hybrids work pretty well on small cars in city traffic. But they are not simple technology. Witness the fact that the car company with the most proven hybrid cars, Toyota, has pretty much failed in their efforts to build larger hybrids. The Highlander, Camry, and LS600h hybrids have all had disappointing economy. That isn't because of some back room deal. That's because hybrids are hard to engineer.

    OK, outside of the first sentence this is just wrong. Unless you are an insider at Toyota you don't have any solid information on what is coming or what their strategy is. It's speculation at best. The fact that they are concentrating their efforts in the area where they are strongest sounds more likely. GM is concentrating its efforts in the area where it's strongest as well. That sounds pretty smart on both players part ( now I can see where there might have been some collaboration here ). And your understanding of the fuel efficieny of the various vehicles is based on your/our faulty measurement system. Do you realize that both the Highlander/400h and Tahoe/Yukon hybrids are more efficient than the Camry or Civic hybrids?
  • galvanggalvang Posts: 156
    "OK, outside of the first sentence this is just wrong. Unless you are an insider at Toyota you don't have any solid information on what is coming or what their strategy is. It's speculation at best. The fact that they are concentrating their efforts in the area where they are strongest sounds more likely. GM is concentrating its efforts in the area where it's strongest as well. That sounds pretty smart on both players part ( now I can see where there might have been some collaboration here ). And your understanding of the fuel efficieny of the various vehicles is based on your/our faulty measurement system. Do you realize that both the Highlander/400h and Tahoe/Yukon hybrids are more efficient than the Camry or Civic hybrids?"

    Between Toyota and GM, they utilize different Hybrid technologies. GM has the more advanced one as they utilize 2 sets of gearing ratios one tailered for low speeds and the other for higher speeds (Highway). However, Toyota has the more cost effective one. So the question is who has the leg up????

    As for Small SUVs versus the large SUVs, I need the Yukon because I need the towing capabilities. I have big toy to haul around, Need the extra power.

    Just curious, In NYC is their large SUVs driving around in the city like in Manhattan???
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 28,681
    In NYC is their large SUVs driving around in the city like in Manhattan

    Every Wall street tycoon, poitician and rapper has to have a Hummer limo in NYC. Does not leave much room for the Prius taxi cabs.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Posts: 7,160
    A good friend that I grew up with married a top exec at Citibank ( Ding! ), 7-figures annually. She, the exec, drives a Caravan my friend drives a Highlander.
  • galvanggalvang Posts: 156
    "( Ding! )"
    Its more like cashching.

    It been awhile since I've been to NYC (30Yrs+). Lot of tycoons over there with their souped up toys. Maybe I'll visit soon. Appreciate the answer.
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