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Check Engine light

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  • 0patience0patience Posts: 1,542
    You are right about the cost being a little steep for the Geo,beings the fact that the R&R for the O2 sensor is .6 hour.$200 is more the figure that should be seen if it is a direct R&R.So,even a high dollar figure of $160 for the sensor and .6 hour at $70/hr. comes out to $202.
  • 79377937 Posts: 390
    Opatience, ya well, sorry if I gave you a moment of false hope. Only kidding. I think what I'm trying to say is that there are alternative sources for most automotive parts. Things like O2 sensors, spark plugs, oil filters, etc..etc.. are not usually made by auto manufacturers and are outsourced.

    I think that it's good when discussions like this take place because it tends to demystify these new fangled computer controlled engines. Sadly, computers in cars have become a source of revenue for rip-off artists. Now don't get me wrong. I believe that there are thousands of good honest auto mechanics out there and god bless them all. I am more than willing to pay a good mechanic good money for a job well done.
  • jpsmrzjpsmrz Posts: 4
    The check engine light keeps coming on and going off without leaving a code in the computer. The mechanic has even tried to get a code when the light is on but there is not a code in the computer. The throttle positon sensor and the cam following sensor had been replaced but they had shown a code in the computer. The car is equipped with the OBCDII terminal and would require a scanner to read. The mechanic does not seem to have any new ideas on what could be wrong. Any help?
  • jpsmrzjpsmrz Posts: 4
    Received a call from the mechanic. Said that he was finally able to get a check code which showed some problem between the alignment with the cam position sensor and the crankshaft sensor. He thought that it also could be the PCM. He said that there might be an extended emissions warranty-the dealer said 7/70000 but would not tell me if anything else is covered. Has anyone else had this problem?
  • acarrollacarroll Posts: 2
    There is an ongoing issue here in California that I would like to get everyones thoughts on.

    It has to do with CA fuel additives and poor fuel quality. Honestly, GM and the Fuel companies are simply pointing fingers. But the bottom line is I have a huge problem and I was hoping to get some advise.

    Basically I have a 1999 Chevy C/K 1500 extended cab pickup truck with a huge flaw. My understanding is that it has to do with the fuel
    quality here in California.

    I do know that this problem has been going on for quite some time as I would reference a letter C99066 dated November, 1999 directed to the
    attention of all Chevy owners of 96/97/98 models S-10, Blazer, Astro, C/K Pickup, Tahoe, Suburban, Chevy Van/Express or ‘P’ truck that is registered in California equipped with a 4.3L, V6, 5.0L V8 or 5.7L V8 engine.

    The letter goes on to say that due to deposit build up on the sequential Central Port Fuel Injector SCPI poppet valves, they may cause the injectors to stick and/or remain closed. The letter goes on to say most fuels in California cause this condition. The letter indicates that GM is extending the window of the warranty to 10 years or 100,000 miles.

    To date my 1999 truck has 20,000 miles on it and it has been in the shop on several occasions due to the "service engine soon light" Additionally, checks/repairs to the injection system have also been necessary. On two of the occasions 3 of the 8 injectors have been replaced and now I am having more sticking problems. At this point I have requested all injectors be replaced.

    Seems logical to me. But GM won't budge. Dealer is saying it's a political issue and fuel companies say it's a injector flaw.

    I have opened a case file with GM to monitor the issue but I was wondering if anyone here could share any information or perhaps Opatience, maybe you could direct me to a helpful website? Hopefully there are other Chevy owners who may read this posting and share more information on the issue...

    Thanks all...

    Alan
  • 0patience0patience Posts: 1,542
    Important
    The ONLY solvent that will have any effect on the deposits occurring on poppet valves is: "PORT FUEL INJECTOR GASOLINE DETERGENT" (P/N 12345104) (IN CANADA USE P/N 12345515).
  • Hi all, this is my first time visiting and hope someone can be of help. i have a 2000 Subaru Outback. At 5000 miles, check engine light came on--car started running rough, and they ended up replacing the #1 Fuel injector...everything fine til 6,500 miles, light back on, I got it in (has been running fine) and they say it is a air fuel sensor failed. The part has been ordered overnight, and will arrive on Friday--However I have to drive 400 miles RT on Friday, so the service guy says it's fine to drive, just bring it in on Monday.

    I don't want to mess us my car by driving it too much with this failed part, and I WOULD HOPE the service people wouldn't want that either. Is it OK to drive over the road with this "failed" part. I already have about 500 miles since the light first came one (as i got the "perhaps the gas tank lid wasn't put back on right, if it's running ok,don't worry about it" line when I called in.)

    If someone can let me know ASAP i'd sure appreciate it! I'll check back later. Thanks. Julie
  • cpikecpike Posts: 3
    My check engine went on at 13500 miles. By the time I went to the dealer the light was off. Dealer said they found nothing wrong. At 15000 the light was on again, but this time it stayed on . I went to the dealer and voluntarily paid $300 for the 15000 mile check up. The intake manifold was leaking no charge. I sent my wife to pick up the car my mistake I had to work. The check engine was still on. I called the dealer they said that they forgot to reset the computer. I wonder if this is true? Before the vehicle was running rough with idle surges now the vehicle is fine. I would think that the computer would reset itself?
  • 0patience0patience Posts: 1,542
    First,on the OBD2 system,if the check engine light comes on,it will store a code for a set number of restarts(inother words,the code is stored until the vehicle is restarted a set number of times).Second,If the check engine light remains on,it means that there is still something triggering a code.If the problem was fixed and the codes weren't cleared,then the check engine light would reset and turn itself off.If you had an intake leak and it was surging,I wouldn't be surprised to see the O2 sensor caked and not reading properly(may be why the light is on).If you step on it,do you smell sulfur?If you do,I may be right.
  • 0patience0patience Posts: 1,542
    I think they must be refering to the Oxygen sensor,if they are,you can drive it.BUT,your fuel economy will suffer and there is a real good possibility that your engine is running rich and may eventually clog the catalytic conveter if run too long.Some things to think about.
  • 0patience0patience Posts: 1,542
    I'm beginning to feel like a hog.Sorry.
  • pat455pat455 Posts: 603
    Don't shut up 0patience! You are so very helpful! Also, the TSB's you've been posting are great.

    :-)

    Pat
    Community Leader/Maintenance & Repair Conference
  • cpikecpike Posts: 3
    About going to another dealer. I would think they would give me the cold shoulder since I did not get the car from them. I guess one bit of luck is that I lease this car. Thank you again for your response. I'll try calling Isuzu or another dealer and hope they don't laugh.
  • torektorek Posts: 92
    she_z: It sounds like your engine computer is "seeing things", as it were -- it got a facefull of nasty stuff and its eyes and ears no longer work right. The problem is most likely not the things the codes suggest, but rather the computer itself and/or its connections to the things it is trying to observe.

    You need to take the car to a place that will figure out what is actually wrong, rather than simply taking the most recent code and replacing whatever that suggests.

    Chris
  • 79377937 Posts: 390
    Something rings a bell here. I've just received an extented warranty from GM for the spark plug wires on my 99 Cavalier. Seems like the plug wires are breaking down on certain cars and causing a fault code to be set and the check engine light comes on. GM will replace the spark plug wires at no charge. Now, this sets me thinking. With modern high voltage spark systems isn't it possible that many cars with OBD2 computers, ( which detects miss-fire and sets a code) are suffering from the same problem that GM describes? Add to the equation water and antifreeze all over the spark plugs and wires and you have a recipe for problems. If the plug wires dry out - problem gone! Just a thought.
  • 0patience0patience Posts: 1,542
    MALFUNCTION INDICATOR LAMP (MIL) MAY BE ON
    #63-65-02

    SUBJECT: MALFUNCTION INDICATOR LAMP (MIL) MAY BE ON, DTC 29 OR 410 SET, AIR FUSE BLOWS (INCREASE WIRE AND FUSE SIZE)

    MODELS: 1993-96 CHEVROLET CAMARO 1993-96 PONTIAC FIREBIRD WITH 5.7L ENGINE ONLY (VIN P - RPO LT1)

    CONDITION:

    SOME OWNERS MAY COMMENT THAT THE MALFUNCTION INDICATOR LAMP (MIL) MAY BE ON. DIAGNOSTIC TROUBLE CODE (DTC) 29 (ON 1993-95 MODELS) OR 410 (ON 1996 MODELS) IS SET. THE AIR FUSE (#7) IN THE UNDERHOOD ELECTRICAL CENTER WILL BE BLOWN.

    CAUSE:

    THE AIR PUMP FUSE AND WIRING ARE NOT ADEQUATE TO PREVENT THE FUSE FROM BLOWING UNDER SOME CONDITIONS. THE AIR PUMP OPERATES ONLY ON A COLD START UP, BEFORE THE ENGINE GOES INTO CLOSED-LOOP OPERATION.

    CORRECTION:

    A 25 AMP FUSE, AND WIRING INCREASED FROM .8MM (18 GAUGE) TO 1.0MM (16 GAUGE), WENT INTO PRODUCTION APPROXIMATELY 11-29-95.

    NORMALLY, THE AIR PUMP WILL NOT BE DAMAGED AND WILL NOT HAVE TO BE REPLACED. TO VERIFY THAT THE AIR PUMP IS STILL OPERATIONAL, REPLACE THE FUSE, THEN USE THE TECH 1 TO OPERATE THE PUMP FOLLOWING THE DIRECTIONS IN DTC 29 CHART IN THE SERVICE MANUAL. THE PUMP SHOULD RUN AND DELIVER AIR TO THE ENGINE PORTS. LISTEN FOR ANY UNUSUAL NOISES THAT COULD INDICATE BEARING PROBLEMS. IF ANY INDICATION OF WATER IS FOUND, REPLACE THE PUMP. THE STEADY STATE CURRENT DRAW OF THE PUMP SHOULD BE NO MORE THAN 15 AMPS. IF THE PUMP OPERATES NORMALLY, IT WILL NOT HAVE TO BE REPLACED.

    1993-95 VEHICLES ================

    USE THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURE TO CHANGE THE AIR PUMP FUSE TO 25 AMPS, INCREASE THE WIRE SIZE FROM THE AIR PUMP RELAY TO THE AIR PUMP, AND UPDATE THE LABEL ON THE COVER OF THE UNDERHOOD ELECTRICAL CENTER. THE WIRING DIAGRAM FOR THIS CIRCUIT IS ON PAGE 8A-21-3 OF THE 1995 SERVICE MANUAL.

    1. DISCONNECT THE NEGATIVE BATTERY CABLE.

    2. REMOVE THE AIR CLEANER/MASS AIR FLOW (MAF) SENSOR ASSEMBLY.

    3. A. REMOVE THE UNDERHOOD ELECTRICAL CENTER TO GAIN ACCESS TO THE WIRING ON THE BOTTOM.

    B. REMOVE THE AIR PUMP RELAY.

    C. REMOVE TERMINAL E4 (TWO RED WIRES ATTACHED). CUT THE OLD TERMINAL OFF.

    D. CRIMP A 36 INCH (900MM) LENGTH OF NEW 1.0MM (16 GAUGE) RED WIRE, AND THE EXISTING 1.0MM RED WIRE, TO NEW TERMINAL, P/N 12015870. SOLDER THE CONNECTION.

    IMPORTANT: SOME VEHICLES MAY HAVE BEEN BUILT WITH BOTH RED WIRES OF THE SAME GAGE. IN THIS CASE, USE AN OHMMETER TO DETERMINE WHICH WIRE TO RECONNECT. CONNECT ONE LEAD OF THE OHMMETER TO TERMINAL "A" AT THE AIR PUMP CONNECTOR. TOUCH THE OTHER LEAD TO EACH OF THE TWO RED WIRES. THE ONE THAT HAS VERY LOW RESISTANCE (CLOSE TO "0") IS THE WIRE THAT WILL NOT BE USED. THIS IS THE WIRE THAT GOES TO TERMINAL "A". CUT IT OFF AND TAPE IT.

    E. INSERT THE TERMINAL INTO THE ELECTRICAL CENTER. REINSTALL THE AIR PUMP RELAY.

    F. ROUTE THE NEW WIRE TO THE AIR PUMP USING THE OLD WIRE AS A GUIDE. SECURE THE WIRE AS NEEDED TO PREVENT CUTTING OR RUBBING.

    4. A. REMOVE THE CONNECTOR FROM THE AIR PUMP.

    B. REMOVE TERMINAL "A" FROM THE CONNECTOR; CUT OFF AND DISCARD THE OLD TERMINAL. CAREFULLY REMOVE THE OLD SEAL FROM THE TERMINAL AND REUSE IT.

    C. CUT OFF ANY EXCESS LENGTH OF NEW WIRE. CRIMP AND SOLDER A NEW TERMINAL, P/N 12048074, TO THE NEW 1.0MM WIRE. REUSE THE SEAL FROM ABOVE.

    D. INSTALL THE TERMINAL INTO THE CONNECTOR, THEN REATTACH THE CONNECTOR TO THE AIR PUMP.

    5. A. REINSTALL THE UNDERHOOD ELECTRICAL CENTER, THEN CONNECT THE NEGATIVE BATTERY CABLE. REINSTALL THE AIR CLEANER/ MAF SENSOR ASSEMBLY.

    B. INSTALL A 25 AMP FUSE IN THE AIR PUMP (#7) LOCATION.

    C. CLEAN THE PRESENT LABEL ON THE INSIDE COVER OF THE UNDERHOOD ELECTRICAL CENTER, THEN CUT OUT JUST THE "25 AMP" PART OF LABEL, P/N 12191559, AND APPLY IT OVER THE EXISTING LABEL.

    D. VERIFY THAT THE AIR PUMP OPERATES.

    1996 MODELS ===========

    USE THE FOLLOWING PROCEDURE TO CHANGE THE AIR PUMP FUSE TO 25 AMPS, INCREASE THE WIRE SIZE FROM THE A/P-FAN FUSE TO THE AIR PUMP RELAY, AND ADD A NEW LABEL TO THE COVER OF THE UNDERHOOD ELECTRICAL CENTER. THE WIRING DIAGRAM FOR THIS CIRCUIT IS ON PAGE 6E-664 OF THE 1996 SERVICE MANUAL.

    IMPORTANT: THE WIRING DIAGRAM SHOWS THE WIRE FROM S189 TO TERMINAL "A" ON THE AIR PUMP AS .8MM. HOWEVER, IT IS ACTUALLY 1.0MM AND WILL NOT HAVE TO BE REPLACED.

    1. DISCONNECT NEGATIVE BATTERY CABLE.

    2. A. REMOVE THE UNDERHOOD ELECTRICAL CENTER TO GAIN ACCESS TO THE WIRING ON THE BOTTOM.

    B. REMOVE THE AIR PUMP RELAY AND THE A/P-FAN FUSE (#7).

    C. REMOVE TERMINAL E1 (.8MM ORANGE) FROM THE RELAY LOCATION. CUT THE OLD TERMINAL OFF, AND TAPE THE WIRE. THIS WIRE WILL NOT BE USED.

    D. REMOVE TERMINAL L7 (.8MM ORANGE) FROM THE FUSE LOCATION. CUT OFF AND DISCARD THE TERMINAL. CRIMP AND SOLDER A NEW TERMINAL, P/N 12020321, TO A 9 INCH (225MM) LENGTH OF NEW 1.0MM ORANGE WIRE AND THE EXISTING ORANGE WIRE FROM L7.

    E. INSTALL THE NEW TERMINAL INTO CAVITY L7.

    F. CRIMP AND SOLDER A NEW TERMINAL, P/N 12015869, TO THE OTHER END OF THE NEW WIRE.

    G. INSTALL THIS NEW TERMINAL INTO CAVITY E1.

    3. A. REINSTALL THE UNDERHOOD ELECTRICAL CENTER.

    B. INSTALL A 25 AMP FUSE IN THE AIR PUMP (#7) LOCATION. REINSTALL THE AIR PUMP RELAY.

    C. CLEAN THE PRESENT LABEL ON THE INSIDE COVER OF THE UNDERHOOD ELECTRICAL CENTER, THEN APPLY A NEW LABEL, P/N 12191559.

    D. RECONNECT THE NEGATIVE BATTERY CABLE. VERIFY THAT THE AIR PUMP OPERATES.

    PARTS INFORMATION:

    PARTS ARE EXPECTED TO BE AVAILABLE ON MARCH 4, 1996.

    WARRANTY INFORMATION:

    FOR VEHICLES REPAIRED UNDER WARRANTY, USE:

    LABOR OPERATION NUMBER: N6276 USE PUBLISHED LABOR OPERATION TIME.

    FIGURES: 00 ATTACHMENTS: 00
  • fritz1224fritz1224 Posts: 398
    I would think these comnputers would accurately diagnose problems. I think all they do is complicate things. Am I wrong? Why can't problems be accurately pinpointed ? Maybe they are the same as this box I'm using now.
  • fritz1224fritz1224 Posts: 398
    short and to the point, please!
  • rykeronerykerone Posts: 7
    My Check Engine Light just came on, so the natrual thing is to take it to the dealer to get checked out. Well, they could not get to it (did not buy the ODY there), so waited two hours for them to check it out. I times them take the car in, and they only had it for 15 min in the shop. They tried to charge me, but I told them that it was under warranty. Found out that thye will charge $80 to reset the light.


    I also noticed my friends light came on around 10000 miles. I am wondering, if this is a plan by Honda to make us bring our cars to them to be checked out. More money for them. I believe so, since it only took them 15 min to reset the light...

    Does anyone know how to reset the light......
  • rykeronerykerone Posts: 7
    My Check Engine Light just came on, so the natrual thing is to take it to the dealer to get checked out. Well, they could not get to it (did not buy the ODY there), so waited two hours for them to check it out. I times them take the car in, and they only had it for 15 min in the shop. They tried to charge me, but I told them that it was under warranty. Found out that thye will charge $80 to reset the light.


    I also noticed my friends light came on around 10000 miles. I am wondering, if this is a plan by Honda to make us bring our cars to them to be checked out. More money for them. I believe so, since it only took them 15 min to reset the light...

    Does anyone know how to reset the light 2000 Odyssey
  • 79377937 Posts: 390
    fritz1224, I reckon that computers are good in cars. However, when you have a situation where spark plug wires are sparking all over the place, the computer might pick up all sorts of impulses and set a false code. So to anyone having this problem, I would suggest that they check the spark plug wires first. Thanks for the info from GM Opatience. As the wires are probably not made by GM and are outsourced, it's possible that many other makes of cars are having the same problems. By the way, Opatience, I can get a Bosch front O2 sensor for $35 and the back one costs %75. That's for my 99 Cavalier. Not too bad a price. Finally, I would suggest once more that people get a $200 OB2 scanner from the source that I suggested earlier on here. It will also erase codes after the problem has been fixed.
  • 79377937 Posts: 390
    Sorry, that's $ 35 for the front O2 sensor and $75 for the back one.
  • 0patience0patience Posts: 1,542
    fritz12224,that was a GM bulletin.Sorry it was long,but if I was to leave anything out,it would have been useless.If you don't want the info,just say so,I'll quit posting it.
  • nadavinadavi Posts: 14
    I followed your instruction in me 1088 Oldsmobile 98 with the "service engine soon" yellow light on. I jumpered the A&B terminal and counted the following: flash, pause, flash, flash (it repeat 3 times) and then "flash, flash, flash, flash, flash, flash, pause, flash, flash, flash" (it repeat 3 time) and then again "flash, pause, flash, flash"...
    can you estimate the problem according to it. I did not now how to figure what code number is it?

    thanks

    Nadav
  • 0patience0patience Posts: 1,542
    Flash,pause,flash,flash,that is code 12,it is the start of the diagnostic mode,then the other one is code 63,the next is the return of code 12,the is the end of the diagnostic mode.Now,the code 63 is what is setting the check engine light,which could mean a couple of things,depending on the engine you have.
    63 MAP sensor voltage high
    63 EGR flow check (3.8L)
    63 Right side oxygen sensor circuit open (5.7L)
    No matter which engine you have,check all of the vaccum hoses to be sure that they are in good shape and hooked up.But,are you sure that is the sequence? When the light starts to flash,the first set is tens,then the pause,then the next set is ones.Flash,flash,pause,flash,flash,flash=code 23,follow?Recheck the numbers.
  • graybograybo Posts: 8
    I have a 97 Chevy Tahoe with 68000 miles. Back in March, the check engine light came on. Took it to the dealer and a diagnosis found a bad O2 sensor on bank 1, sensor 2. The check engine light came on again this month and it diagnosed a bad O2 sensor bank 2, sensor 2. Had it replaced. Two days later, my check engine light comes on again. Does changing one sensor cause the others to go bad? Should the O2 sensors fail at this mileage? I'm going to take it back to the dealer. If it's another O2 sensor, should I go ahead and replace the last two? Also, I was told the converter may be going bad. I think that's still under warranty. Any comments will be appreciated.
  • 0patience0patience Posts: 1,542
    If the rear sensors have gone bad,did they say if they were "caked" or if they had actually quit working.If they were "caked",then the front sensors may be causing a rich condition.Did the dealer say if they tested the O2 sensor circuit?Just because the trouble code says an O2 sensor,doesn't mean replacing the sensor is going to solve the problem.They need to do the diagnostics and check and see whay the sensor is bad.And the fact that the light is still coming on,tells me they didn't do the diagnostics.More than likely,by now,you do have a problem with the catalytic converter,but the O2 sensor circuit problem needs to be taken care of or it will plug the new cat eventually.If you can get the exact trouble codes they came up with,we may be able to give you a better idea.
  • nadavinadavi Posts: 14
    what does code 63 mean with 3.8L oldsmobile?
  • graybograybo Posts: 8
    Thanks for the information. I will get the codes Wednesday. I will inform them of what you suggested about the circuit problem. Also, should'nt the computer tell me my converter is going bad? Or, if one of the rear O2 sensors goes bad, is that the "indicator." Anybody know for sure if the exhaust system is warranted for 8 years/80,000 miles (97 Tahoe)?
  • graybograybo Posts: 8
    I spoke to the dealer service manager today and he said that his computer would only tell me which O2 sensor was bad. That he wasn't sure if they could test the sensor circuit. My question is, what exactly do I need to tell him to educate him on the circuit problem or should I ask to speak to the technician? He said I needed to go ahead an replace the last two, because when you replace O2 sensors, the old usually go bad shortly thereafter. I told him the heck with that. Poor design. How true that is I don't know. I asked him how I would be sure the problem was corrected and he couldn't answer me. Thank again
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