BMW 3-Series - AWD or RWD?

Mr_Shiftright

You made that up.

circlew

No, he meant V-10 AWD Audi

RS6



Regards,
OW

roadburner

Too many shoppers are being fleeced into thinking that AWD will protect their families from certain death because "4 driven wheels are safer than 2." AWD won't help prevent you from understeering into an embankment because you took a slick corner too fast. And when you are heading out of control towards that embankment, it won't help you stop any sooner either.

It's still inconceivable to me that some people have been bamboozled into thinking that AWD is a necessity to be able to drive in the rain. At first I thought those people were joking, but sadly enough they are not. Unbelievable.
Another thing to remember is that not even Munich considers their AWD models to be the hot ticket. Otherwise you would see AWD M cars as well as an xi Sport Package that contained more than just tires, seats, and a steering wheel.
People looking for an AWD performance car would be better served considering an EVO X or STi at the low end of the price scale, and a C4 or RS4 at the upper end.

circlew

A 330xi is not a necessity to drive in the rain. Heck, this is the first AWD car I've driven. It sticks like glue in all weather. Not really much fun if you want to sling the tail out. I DO NOT consider this car a hot ticket or even the 335xi with the added grunt.

It's just a great handling car that stays planted no matter what. This is not a track car or even a part time track car. In fact, as I am on record as agreeing the RWD is more fun and you need more skill when burning up the roads. Your offerings are excellent for the performance minded die hard AWD'ers.

BTW, some people can't drive in the rain or snow (or in the sun!) no matter what wheel drive.

Regards,
OW

roadburner

A 330xi is not a necessity to drive in the rain. Heck, this is the first AWD car I've driven. It sticks like glue in all weather. Not really much fun if you want to sling the tail out. I DO NOT consider this car a hot ticket or even the 335xi with the added grunt.

I have to admit that there is one AWD BMW that I've seriously considered owning- An E53 X5 4.8is:



It's too big and way too heavy but for some reason it is just a blast to drive- especially in hooligan mode(kind of like the B7). The thinly disguised Alpina B10 V8 and M Sport suspension completely transform the truck. It was an unmitigated hoot on my gravel driveway/rally stage. If an E30 M3 is a scapel, than the 4.8is is a 375 hp chainsaw...

BTW, some people can't drive in the rain or snow (or in the sun!) no matter what wheel drive.

Agreed. What is really scary is that most of them probably think that they are great drivers.

fedlawman

"You made that up."

But you were tempted. Admit it.

Mr_Shiftright

I saw RIGHT through you. :shades:

unlimitedjoe

OW,

you are one of the more, respected guy on this post, so i ask please, do not underestimate the xi sedan to the i, with a NO QUESTION ending statement.

my take on ( both with summer tires ) the 2 cars is, there is a QUESTION.

and that is, what road or track are we talking about?
is it 0 to 60, 1/4 mi. or at (apg) arizona proving ground?

as i posted before, TENTHS OF A SECOND difference either way.

unlimitedjoe

bruce, well said, cheers.
lawman,

i feel ( could be wrong ) that you have not driven an xi?

i feel that it does not take away, any SAP from the fun or challenge, from a fun & challenging car.
understand that i do feel that there is a, difference in challenges.
and as far as your view on families, thinking awd will save themselves from death.
i feel you underestimate, the knowledge of the american public!

fedlawman

I feel we can agree to disagree.

circlew

UJ, both cars are fantastic. To me, it's simple. If you are looking for more traction, 335xi. If you are looking for a lighter steering feel and want more fun, 335i.

You can debate the traction and fun factor back and forth. The fact remains both are unbelievably great cars. Racing? Different equipment. Depends upon the goal.

Regards,
OW

unlimitedjoe

agreed, will not be around for a while, so happy turkey day!

unlimitedjoe

your a good man!

happy thanksgiving!

UJ

habitat1

Was driving around yesterday morning and happened to tune into "Car Talk", just as a question about AWD came up. Coincidentally, the same question was answered in the print edition of the Car Talk column in the Washington Post this morning (although they elaborated much more on the radio).

Essentially, the message both on the radio and in the column was that buyers of AWD often don't take into account the added costs of AWD in terms of fuel economy, maintenance and repairs. They do not recommend AWD for any climate milder than their home town of Boston and, even in Boston, they think RWD with good all season tires is adequate for most "all seasoned" drivers. Between ABS, LSD, stability control systems, etc. "even my brother would have an easy time getting around compared to his 1970 Impala".

I don't exactly consider the Car Talk guys the authority on sports cars or sports sedans, but they did chastise the caller for spending extra money on AWD in Phoenix. And they also claimed that, even in stallwarts like Subaru's, the additional mechanical parts in AWD systems will pretty much double your odds of an expensive drive train repair down the road.

circlew

Here is the take from " Smart Motorist" on the net:

All-Wheel Drive - All-wheel drive offers the best of both worlds. In an all-wheel drive system, power is distributed to all four of the vehicle's tires, all of the time. Subaru and Audi have built their reputations on all-wheel-drive sedans and wagons. All-wheel drive passenger vehicles handle better than most front- AND rear-wheel drive vehicles. Both 4WD and AWD improve traction for moving on ice and snow, but they don't do anything for stopping ability. For that reason, they can build a false sense of security that leads drivers to follow too closely.

I know most RWD sports sedans handle better than AWD but some have performance tuning. There are always pro/con you will hear but I respect your view. I can only comment on the car I am driving at the moment. I called it a wash on price considering the Nav system I did not includes.

As far as repair costs, I already paid a premium on that since I lease but all costs for premature drive train failure is covered in my case. I did consider this in advance because as systems are increasingly more complex, costs will rise on repairs.

Regards,
OW

fedlawman

AWD in Phoenix?!?!

That's like selling snow tires to someone in Miami. I guess there really is a sucker born every minute.

roadburner

don't exactly consider the Car Talk guys the authority on sports cars or sports sedans, but they did chastise the caller for spending extra money on AWD in Phoenix. And they also claimed that, even in stallwarts like Subaru's, the additional mechanical parts in AWD systems will pretty much double your odds of an expensive drive train repair down the road.

But if you don't have AWD, what do you do when it rains?
:P

shipo

"But if you don't have AWD, what do you do when it rains?"

I know it's kind of a new and radical thought, but in my case, I drive. :P

Best Regards,
Shipo

habitat1

Click and Clack weren't disparaging the AWD choice if you actually lived in a climate where snow was a serious consideration. But they have questioned the financial prudence of AWD, even in SUV's for mild climates.

In a show a few years ago, they advised somebody from Atlanta that was considering the Pilot or MDX to get the Pilot 2WD version, save a bundle in price and another bundle in fuel efficiency and maintenance/repairs (and of course, send half of the savings to them for their advice). We were shopping the MDX at the time and I happened to check the Honda/Acura extended warranty prices. A 7/100 extended warranty on an AWD Pilot or MDX was substanitally more than the 2WD Pilot. They were even considerably more (+50%) over my Honda S2000, with all of it's high tech engineering.

Click and Clacks point was simply to consider all of the costs of AWD in your decision. And not just the up front costs, but also the onging costs, at least if you plan on keeping the car for longer than a short term lease.

On another note, I met a former Mercedes exec turned lobbyist a couple of years ago and we started chatting about cars (I had just purchased a 2004 TL 6-speed). I mentioned that if Mercedes had offered a 300CDI in a manual transmission and 4 matic, I'd have gotten one instead of the TL. His response was, you can get the manual transmission in Europe, but forget the 4-matic on a diesel E-class. He claimed that the great advantages of the E-class diesel - excellent fuel economy and 250k+ mile low cost mechanical lifespan would both be significantly compromised with 4-matic.

Again, I don't want to sound like I'm trying to throw a wet blanket on AWD. It certainly has benefits worth considering. (We did get an AWD MDX). But, as with anything, it has costs. I'm just as quick to question the financial prudence of putting 18/19" wheels and W rated tires on a family sedan that isn't heading to Nurburgring. In 155k miles, my Maxima SE has cost me a whopping $1,300 in tire replacement. My friend's E350 Sport will cost him roughly $9,000 over the same period (he does keep his cars 10+/- years). Those AMG wheels look great on the E350, but the actual real world difference in handling, given the way each of us drives a family sedan, is almost negligable. Certainly not worth 750% more in tire replacement costs and even he admits that it was a brain fart on his part to get them.

circlew

I agree, although I ran a test yesterday over 100 miles and kept it under 80. On the Highway with light traffic, the 330xi E90 got 26 at the end of the ride. I did the same ride with the loaner 330i back in '06 and it was 28.5 MPG. (My average so far is 22 MPG combined). I assume at 55-65 I could have eeked out a bit more. I can only go so far egg-shelling the throttle before I get bored!

Over 50,000 miles, thats about 170 gals of gas saved with RWD vs. AWD on the same car, or around $500.

My 2003 Linclon LS clocked an average of 19 MPG so I gained in the switch. My point is that added cost of the 2 extra drive wheels was worth it in my value proposition.

In the same vein as others get sick over even the thought of AWD, those "Bling Things" they pass off as wheels over 18" are rediculous to me.

When I grow up and ditch the training wheels, I'll look back and wonder "What was I thinking!" In the mean time, it ain't that bad.

Regards,
OW

Mr_Shiftright

Wheels that big also affect acceleration and braking. Most people don't realize that.

str8line

I agree about what a waste of money these huge wheels and tires are. There are so many silly people getting worse performance with these monster setups. They must be compensating for something.

circlew

That's the "Super Size It" mentality. That's why they make Hummers. I understand a lot of weathly Saudis have these bling-factor trucks. Do they have Mickey D's over there also?

I guess they don't care about braking and fuel mileage!

Regards,
OW

roadburner

In the same vein as others get sick over even the thought of AWD, those "Bling Things" they pass off as wheels over 18" are rediculous to me.

After talking with TC Kline of TC Kline Racing I replaced the 225/50-16 tires on my Club Sport with 205/55-16 rubber. When TC used to race the E36/5 he found that the car was faster on the smaller tires.

circlew

It makes great physical sense due to decreased friction. Everything is about balance in the long run.

It reminds me of my 1/4 mile track days where most serious competitors stripped everything except the driver seat out of the car. The front tires resembled bicycle tires.

Regards,
OW

roadburner

It makes great physical sense due to decreased friction. Everything is about balance in the long run.

If you put sticky DOT race tires on a ti and you don't increase the roll stiffness there is a very good chance that you will roll the car in any sort of slalom style cornering, especially if the car has a sunroof. I haven't noticed any down side to fitting the smaller tires. I still have more lateral grip than I can use. I may need to return to the stock size when I eventually stick a stroker motor in the thing, but right now I'm good.

habitat1

My point is that added cost of the 2 extra drive wheels was worth it in my value proposition.

And that's all that matters. There is no universal "right" answer to what amounts to a subjective value/preference decision.

spiritinthesky

I concur with the suggestion that a prudent and thorough evaluation of the pros and cons should be made relative to everything from AWD, Sport Packages, transmission selection.

In the last two weeks, I've taken both of my cars in for their winter "check ups". while at the BMW dealer lounge, I spoke with a gentleman who had sprung for a new BMW M5 last year, now that he had put his last kid through college. He paid $90,000 for a car without so much as a test drive. Now he is cursing the SMG transmission which has had to be repaired and or reprogrammed three times in less than 8,000 miles. He had never driven anything but a manual transmission before, but assumed that BMW's SMG transmission, the only one offered at the time he bought, would be fine. He hates it and, when he saw my 2003 M5 keys being handed back to me, offered to trade me even up. I thought he was joking, but he insisted he wasn't. I declined.

Then, not 5 days later, I'm in for the same service on my 911TT and essentially, the same thing happens. Guy who bought a 911TT Tiptronic is in the service lounge sees my car being brought in to the bay area and starts complaining about the tiptronic transmission that he ostensibly bought so his wife could drive it. I said that that I thought it was a noble thing to do, wanting to be polite. He responded, "like hell" - they were in the process of getting a divorce and was going to have to sell the car. Claimed that the car wasn't the cause of their problems, but it didn't help that he didn't like driving an automatic and she never drove it, period.

As I was joking with the service manager about the guy's predicament, he mentioned that "a lot" of the buyers of the 911 Turbo Tiptronics complain about them after the purchase. Many buy based upon reading a one liner review that says "faster than a manual" and don't even go out for a test drive. Granted, not easy to do, but still a prerequisite, IMO, for buying a $135k car with a transmission you have never experienced. He said a nearly equal number buy the AWD "4" versions of 911's without test driving both and then complain that the "4" doesn't feel as nimble or quick as the RWD "2" they previously drove.

In todays marketplace, there is a BMW 3 series for just about aeverybody. Coupe, sedan, convertible. RWD, AWD. 328 or 335. Sport or standard suspension. Manual or steptronic. It really shouldn't be hard to find the one that is right for you, as long as you are willing to do your homework.

circlew

Great story...and wise advice as usual. Perhaps that is why some houses and cars go on the market that do not seem to make any sense. You can't "cram" your way through life with little awareness and acting on pure emotion. Unless you are a Presidential candidate....

Thanks and regards,
OW

unlimitedjoe

as i said before, tenths of a second either way, when it comes down to testing times on rwd & awd!

as for the rain, no comparing the two, advantage big on awd. :P

i own a rwd car, and trust me much more cautious in it when roads are wet.

better yet, next time it rains take an awd bimmer for a test run so you will understand the advantage of awd.

as usual in the rain, safe & fun driving gentleman.

circlew

UJ,

I agree on the added traction in the rain with my xi. My rwd Lincoln LS was much more dicey in the wet. The Michelin AS tires were not any help.

Regards,
OW

roadburner

better yet, next time it rains take an awd bimmer for a test run so you will understand the advantage of awd.

I drive my wife's BMW X3 truck every now and then, and while it handles OK, it is a somewhat less than entertaining drive. Like the xi sedans, the DSC fitted to the X3 is designed to step in early and save the clueless/inept from their ham-handed control inputs. Some people may want or need that safety net, but I'll pass. I will admit that I have a soft spot for the E30 325ix -especially for off-road or winter rallies- but that car was designed at a time when BMW assumed that their customers possessed at least a modicum of driving skills. I have never had a problem driving a RWD briskly car in the rain on the street or on the track, and I simply cannot understand why any competent driver would consider buying an AWD BMW if wet pavement is the most treacherous driving condition they will encounter. If I wanted an AWD performance car I'd be checking out the EVO X, WRX STi, RS4, and C4- depending on my needs and budget.

circlew

I have never had a problem driving a RWD briskly car in the rain on the street or on the track, and I simply cannot understand why any competent driver would consider buying an AWD BMW if wet pavement is the most treacherous driving condition they will encounter.

It's the black ice that'll get you and in the snow, it's really a blast with AWD. Most drivers couldn't even keep up, let alone keep straight vs. trained track drivers, so AWD will help add overall traffic safety, IMO. Not many drivers plan to/have attended a CCA or similar driving program even once, let alone the multiple courses it would take to hone their skills in emergency maneuvers. Perhaps the US licensing program should add these level of driving courses/ class time before they hand out driver's licenses. It's more an ID system than the fact you know how to handle a particular vehicle.

It's a different sport feel/result, it's true, and I understand AWD will never replace RWD sportiness. It's just a different level of performance with the 335xi. It's a great all weather commuter ELLPS, not a pure sport performance sedan. That would have an "M" on it for BMW. The 335xi is no WRC car and wasn't intended to be.

Agree on your choices for performance alternatives completely. In fact, EvoX looks real good (if they loose the wing).

Regards,
OW

roadburner

It's the black ice that'll get you and in the snow

Black ice gets everybody. If the coefficient of friction is zero, it doesn't matter how many driven wheels you have. As for the snow, AWD does provide an advantage, but not to the extent that I would give up any of my RWD cars. North Central KY just doesn't get enough bad winter weather- and if/when we do I can just drive the Wrangler or my wife's X3. And anyway, as I mentioned in another topic, I'm more worried about the brain dead morons sharing the road with me. If one of them takes out the Wrangler or the X3 it's no big deal, but I think I'd maim or kill anyone who damaged my Club Sport.

unlimitedjoe

howdy,

1) evo goes from 0 to 60 in 4.4 sec. fast, but to ugly for my taste.
2) wrx not as fast, but still ugly.
3) rs4 not much bang for my buck.( $69.000 for a 0 to 60 in 4.8 sec.)
4) c4, out of my league.

imho the 335xi is, very entertaining to drive. and with a few modifications ( say under $3000.) will have no problems competing with the likes of the above. ( except c4 )

what i like most about the 335xi ( besides being able to put down power.) is that its an ALL WEATHER-PLEASER and m3 fast, for an everyday drive sport sedan.

oh yea, i agree everyone should take a skip barber driving class, i did more then once, and found it expensive and well worth it!

so for me there is still no doubt, that the 335xi has a big edge when driving in the rain then the 335i or any other rwd sedan. and as far as the dry road drives, i will be either behind, right there, and yes even in front of the 335i rwd. :shades:

again, as usual for me,

safe & fun driving everyone!

unlimitedjoe

ow, i feel you under estimate the level, of the stock 335xi's sport performance ability. but maybe your right ( i don't beleive so.)
but in the case i couln't change your mind, maybe the boys at ac schnitzer or dinan might be able to explain the xi's ability more clearly then me.

Regards,
UJ

habitat1

O.K., it's time for me to dust off my old math skills and come up with a formula that everyone can use for deciding between i and xi. Here it is my first cut:

X = (A * - (1-A) * C where

A = % of time you will be driving in inclement weather
B = Your percentage estimate of the improvement of AWD traction over RWD traction in inclement weather
C = Your percentage estimate of the advantage of RWD over AWD in dry/good weather driving enjoyment
If X > 0 (or 100%), get the "x"; if x

For me:

A = 15%
B = 150% - note, I am giving a 50% advantage to AWD in the inclement weather
C = 125% - note, I am "only" penalizing AWD half as much on dry pavement as its advantage above.

X = (15% *150%) - ((100% -15%) * 125%)
X = 22.5% - 106.25%
X = -83.75% or -0.8375: Get the RWD.

I have not added factors like fuel efficiency or the "peace of mind" that some would claim AWD provides even in good weather, if inclement weather is on the way or a possibility, etc. You can add the other factors and modify the formula.

But, what it does appear to me from reading the posts of others, is that "A" with the exception of some who live north of the border in Canada, is not that big of a number. And those that favor AWD either have a very big estimate of "B" or a very small estimate of "C", or both. Even when I stretch my own evaluations to giving AWD a 2 to 1 advantage over RWD in the inclement weather advantage vs. dry weather disadvantage, I come up with a number far below 0.

P.S. Some x proponents have even suggested that "C" is 100% or less. (i.e. AWD has an advantage over RWD even in dry weather / good conditions). I can't accept that, in a BMW 3 series, adding 200+ lbs, disrupting the nearly perfect 50/50 weight balance, and limiting the suspension stiffness is an advantage in dry weather. But that's why the formula is different for everybody.

Post your own numbers.

unlimitedjoe

just curious of your opinion, on how the boys at infiniti where able to get C to be the other way around?
also how can we say, the same will not be true with the 335?

safe & fun diving!
uj

habitat1

I haven't driven the Infiniti Gx, but I wasn't that impressed with the 2004 G35 6-speed I drove back in 2004. So it would be my position that they are not starting from the same level of balance, steering and driving dynamics as the 3 series, such that the addition of AWD weight and other effects isn't as relativly penalizing.

And remember, while there is certainly some objectivity to "B" and "C" there is also a significant amount of subjectivity to it. In the car that I am most familiar with, the 911 C4S felt heavier, less nimble and a bit slower off the line to me, having put 17k miles on my 911C2S. But I've heard others describe the C4S as feeling more "planted". How much one values "nimble" and "quick" over "planted" is highly subjective. And that's why your B and C may be much different than mine. Neither is right or wrong, just different.

circlew

Habitat1, this is a great way of analyzing the differences. I never looked at it in that way or in quite that detail. You formula is a real good tool. I agree the weighting will be quite different to all. When I ran my numbers I was just negative.

As I am on record, the planted feeling in the 330 xi is very apparent to me vs. the 330i but of course the light feel of the steering in the latter was the gets the nod for nimbleness over the AWD version. Just my take.

Thanks for the insight, as always.

Regards,
OW

unlimitedjoe

hello h1,

to me it seems like gentlemen like yourself, think there is some kind of BIG significance between the xi & the i.

i just don't see it that way!

you see weight,( infiniti did not ) nimble, as some kind of SIGNIFICANT sedan that is so much more superior then awd.

i don't think so!

i believe if someone lives in arizona, who is a using a 335 xi for a daily driver, is not losing any SIGNIFICANT fun or substancial benifet then the I.

like i posted before, tenths of a second difference either way!

yes, i too also drive a fasst rwd sports car, but to say my 335xi is a lot slower or less fun then a rwd is to me, just not true.

i know the difference between the two.

as usual for me,

fast, safe & fun driving fellers!

roadburner

to me it seems like gentlemen like yourself, think there is some kind of BIG(sic) significance between the xi & the i.
i just don't see it that way!

Well, you really should take the time to read that R&T article that you linked to earlier; here's a reprise of some relevant comments from that story:

"When was the last time a BMW not only didn't finish in the top two points-wise, but didn't capture our hearts and require us to call it a "scalpel" or "the sportiest of the bunch?" Turning a rear-drive car into an all-wheel-driver can have that effect." (emphasis added)

"Handling is normally a BMW forte. But even with an xDrive awd system biased for rear-drive fun (which can steplessly transfer torque 100 percent to the front or rear axle, depending on wheel slip), this was the most un-BMW-like 3 Series we can remember driving." (emphasis added)

"Drop throttle did little to squelch understeer, and possibly more than any other car in the test the BMW needed corners taken in a slow-in, fast-out manner."

believe if someone lives in arizona(sic), who is a(sic) using a 335 xi for a daily driver, is not losing any SIGNIFICANT fun or substancial(sic) benifet(sic) then the(sic) I.

Anyone who lives in Arizona and actually believes that they NEED AWD should not be allowed to obtain a drivers license.

cdnpinhead

"Anyone who lives in Arizona and actually believes that they NEED AWD should not be allowed to obtain a drivers license."

Yeah, you'd think, but I exist in Arizona and I doubt that you'd believe what goes on around here. About 5% of the people are native or have lived here since they were in high school & the rest are imports, all from a variety of places in the north and/or east with their own driving "styles." Gotta love it.

At least they want to be here, which is a plus. I, on the other hand. . .

kdshapiro

Anyone who lives in Arizona and actually believes that they NEED AWD should not be allowed to obtain a drivers license.

Ever been to Flagstaff in the winter? :surprise Phoenix is a different story.

roadburner

Ever been to Flagstaff in the winter?

I've been to Arizona three times, and each visit was an unmitigated disaster. My comment was aimed at those drivers who only have to contend with wet pavement.

unlimitedjoe

1) i assume you believe there is a big difference.

2) maybe even the tooth fairy & santa claus.

3) hope you where a really good boy, because what you wont find under your tree is a big difference 335i.(no such toy.)

ho ho ho!
and just the way santa would want it,
safe & fun driving!
UJ

roadburner

1) i assume you believe there is a big difference.

It's not just me; most enthusiast magazines(have you ever actually READ that R&T article?) as well as virtually all of my fellow CCA instructors share that belief. But then, what do we know?

2) maybe even the tooth fairy & santa claus.

I believe that's your department.

) hope you where(sic) a really good boy, because what you wont(sic) find under your tree is a big difference(sic) 335i.(no such toy.)

Just how many BMWs have you driven? Can I assume that you have driven RWD and AWD models back to back? On wet pavement? On dry pavement? As for me, after eight BMWs and @1500 miles behind the wheel of a couple of 335i variants, I wouldn't want to find ANY current 3 Series under my tree- with the possible exception of an M3 sedan. I would much prefer a 1st generation M car.
Look, it's clear that you are infatuated with your first BMW, and that's great. The fact that your "baby" wouldn't be the first choice of most other drivers on this board doesn't invalidate your decision- a 335xi obviously matches your needs and abilities to a "T". However, if you hope to persuade the rest of us that your BMW is the latest and greatest 3 Series you will have to produce some clear and convincing evidence that can substantiate your contentions. Until then, with all due respect, I consider our discussion closed.

unlimitedjoe

not getting it i see.

opinions are different also where i live and drive. (daily & track)

imo for a daily driver out of the 2 the xi wins.

at the track, like i posted a few times, tenths of a second difference.

if you don't beleive me, please ask the same question to your instructors, and then please post what they said.

safe & fun driving!
UJ

roadburner

For the last time , when you can produce facts -not your feelings or opinions- I'll continue the discussion until then, I'm done.

habitat1

not getting it i see.

With all due respect, Joe, you are the one that's not getting it.

As I clearly stated, there is a lot of subjectivity on the difference in driving feel between lighter, RWD and heavier AWD. But it's hard to dispute the fact that a RWD 911 GT3 significantly beats a considerably more powerful 911 Turbo (additional 65 hp and 200+ ft lbs of torque) around Nurburgring. The difference between the equally engined 911 C2S and C4S is even greater.

My Porsche dealer sells Audis. Yet he would claim the lighter weight BMW M3 is a far superior, more fun to drive track car than the heavier, very "planted" Audi S4. He also discouraged me from spending another $5,700 to go from a C2S to a C4S for a "slower, less nimble" car. "No doubt, better in the rain - but is that what you are getting a 911 for?" If you want to speak with him first hand, call Hunt Valley Porsche and ask for the sales manager.

The fact that you don't believe there is much of a difference going from RWD to AWD suggest that you made the right decision for you. To a lot of people, however, myself included, an extra 200 lbs of weight is a big deal. Exspecially when it comes along with lower drive train efficiency and fuel economy.

Lastly, consider this. BMW goes through hell and back, putting carbon roofs and yanking out the toys on the M3 CSL just to save 100 lbs over the standard M3. Do you honestly ever think you would see an M3x, let alone an M3 CSLx?? The day you see either of those, is the day the BMW engineers will have made it good enough that they could claim the performance advantages offset the disadvantages. Or merely have caved in to the AWD marketing hype. But for both of our sakes, I hope it's the former.