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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • british_roverbritish_rover Posts: 8,476
    Sokath, his eyes uncovered!

    Excellent TNG reference.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    Sokath, his eyes uncovered!

    Excellent TNG reference.


    Yes indeed! I thought I was the only one that would get that reference!

    Terms like "never" and "past sins" are used far too loosely, and frankly show a lack of knowledge about today's market. It is indeed possible for Hyundai to elevate their brand. Toyota and Honda did. Some credit the spinning off of luxury brands (that many said would never be accepted as luxury cars) and other voodoo, but it's simple. Toyota and Honda elevated their brand by consistently building great cars at an affordable price. As buyers grew older and more affluent, they wanted bigger and more luxurious models. Toyota and Honda gave them what they wanted. Hyundai is doing the same, skipping over the silly marketing adventure.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    frankly show a lack of knowledge about today's market
    and frankly I'll ask you them that even as skewed as your eyesight apparently is, where is your evidence that Hyundai has even APPROACHED J3 levels of quality/reliabilty overall or FTM where is your evidence that the car buying public generally thinks they have???
    For all 'my lack of knowledge' I can point to CR reliability surveys etc and FTM sales statistics where the Camcords of the world dominate the Korean products, etc etc.
    What you got - besides some 'rose colored glasses'. Even you 'H fanboys need a dose of realism every once in awhile - and perhaps some knowledge :P .
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Terms like "never" and "past sins" are used far too loosely
    maybe I should challenge you to go out and buy an Excel- Heck, if you can find one still running they might PAY you to take it. And then after you drive it for a while, then you can come back and tell us that it is not a 'Past Sin'. Or a SCoupe, and earlier Sonata, there have been several.
    My point is really that Hyundai,, while it indeed might be making better cars very recently, has not at this point 'elevated' the brand as you note that the J3 did. And that would be a problem - the Genesis being made by Hyundai is NOT an asset from a marketing/perception perspective.
    Whether you want to take your head out of the sand long enough to acknowledge that is something else again!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,681
    For all 'my lack of knowledge' I can point to CR reliability surveys etc and FTM sales statistics where the Camcords of the world dominate the Korean products, etc etc.

    No, I don't think you can, at least not CR reliability surveys. According to the CR 2009 Annual Auto Issue, here's the predicted reliability of the Camcord and the two Korean products that most closely compete with them:

    Honda Accord: Better than average
    Hyundai Sonata: Better than average
    Kia Optima: Much better than average
    Toyota Camry: Average

    Yes, the calendar says 2009, not 1986. :)
  • LASHAWNLASHAWN Posts: 303
    Who really cares if the car is perceived as luxury or non-luxury, really? At this point and time with the auto industry crisis going on, the only thing that really matters for any car manufacturer is sales. Point blank, no ifs ands or buts about it. I could care less whats it category is, if it has what I like and I can afford it I'm buying it. Doesn't bother me that the salesman has no clue what the car has or doesn't have because I know what I want and like, he's just there to help me with the paperwork.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    No offense, but when was the last time you actually read Consumer Reports?

    The Sonata was the most reliable car in their entire survey a couple of years ago. They've done well recently, quite well in some cases.

    Not all models are up to par with the very best, but many are, especially newer ones.

    I believe that on average they passed the Europeans long ago and passed the American brands (overall average) as well.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    What you got - besides some 'rose colored glasses'. Even you 'H fanboys need a dose of realism every once in awhile - and perhaps some knowledge

    Don't forget, I'm the anti-fanboy. To me, cars are machines, not living breathing creatures. I have exactly zero loyalty to any car. I have more loyalty for a goldfish than a car. I own a Hyundai today, but before buying my next car, I will shop the entire field. The winner will be the car that offers me a more than acceptable package of quality, reliability, performance, warranty, comfort, and safety at the best price. I'll probably spend $25-$35K on the car, and 5 bucks on the badge, not $30K on the car and $15K on the badge. Last time I checked, badges aren't made of gold pressed latinum.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    No offense, but when was the last time you actually read Consumer Reports?

    No offense taken - and a fair question is I'm constantly going to reference their findings. Been a subscriber for about 20 years now and while I don't personally agree with their priorities, I do respect what they do, the lack of financial benefits and the statistical validity of their findings. Unlike things like JDP and/or mag COTY awards etc.
    The source for my info regarding Hyundai's 'place' in the auto market right now is the 09 CR Auto Issue which rated Hyundai - as a brand - only 7th out of 16 (if I remember right) and well behind the Honda/Toyota standardbearers. It is not that Hyundai is not improving because it sure seems that they are (7th ain't that bad) , or FTM that they don't make some good cars - only they they still suffer from a 'Korean' car stigma that needs to be addressed and changed if something like the Genesis is ever going to make it in the lux arena.
    Brand perceptions are everything when it comes to people spending big bucks for what is thought to be a 'luxury' car - and I'm sorry Hyundai's brand perception right now, while it may be getting better, is still second tier. Another 5 years or so? , quite possibly a different story - just what I think it is today.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I'll probably spend $25-$35K on the car, and 5 bucks on the badge, not $30K on the car and $15K on the badge. Last time I checked, badges aren't made of gold pressed latinum.

    And what if the Ferengi can show you that if you pay that 15k for the badge, get that all back 5 years later, is this still a question of principle - or can you look past that 'ridiculous' charge for that badge and understand that maybe you just might make a better decision spending it?
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 39,957
    statistical validity of their findings

    Since they use a self selected subscriber base for data, I don't have as much faith in their stats as I do JD Power. You may want to check out True Delta too although they seem to have the same problem as CR (gotta be a subscriber to rate your car), and Comments: Consumer Reports/JD Power Rankings.

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  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,681
    where is your evidence that Hyundai has even APPROACHED J3 levels of quality/reliabilty overall ...

    Take a closer look at that April issue of CR on your bookshelf. You'll see that Hyundai has not only APPROACHED J3 levels of reliability, they have equalled those levels. Here's what CR says about it (see p. 15):

    Brand / Overall Reliability score

    Mazda: Average
    Honda: Above Average
    Hyundai: Above Average
    Nissan: Above Average
    Subaru: Above Average
    Suzuki: Average
    Toyota: Above Average

    Actually, since "Above Average" is the highest score CR gives for any brand, Hyundai is as good in reliability as ANY other brand, not just the Japanese makes.

    Why does CR rank them below the J3 as a brand? Mostly resale value, according to CR. They also note Hyundais in general aren't particularly agile (but that doesn't apply to Genesis, and it applies to Toyota as a brand also), aren't tops in FE (but that is changing big time of late, including the Genesis), and "suspension" is noted (without details).

    Since you respect CR, maybe we won't see you say again that Hyundai lags in reliability?
  • cjgtcjgt Posts: 28
    "Last time I checked, badges aren't made of gold pressed latinum."
    LOL!
    Unless you buy one from Quark's bar.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Posts: 804
    The source for my info regarding Hyundai's 'place' in the auto market right now is the 09 CR Auto Issue which rated Hyundai - as a brand - only 7th out of 16 (if I remember right)

    If you are referring to the April 09 CR auto mag, the rank is 8th out of 34! And looking at the results table from the CR website, the distance between Hyundai and Toyota and Honda is not all that great. In fact in that very same table, Honda is 3rd and Toyota is 4th so it isn't like Hyundai is 30th out of 30 and HonYota are 1 and 2 as your post seems to imply. :P

    Better get that memory checked. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    you've never noticed that whoever gets the JDP 'initial quality' awards (for example) seem to be the mfgrs that most need the boost - or FTM the ones that are most likely to pay to use the JDP logos? Lately GM has managed to get quite a few of them. Anybody out there bite into a Malibu having better 'initial quality' for example over a Camcord, or even a Sonata? Coincidence, or did it have more to do with GMs waning reputations and need to advertise the 'honor'?
    I don't understand why a data base of CR subscribers would necessarily 'skew' CR findings, but at least, there is no money that changes hands - my problem with pretty much any ratings organization other than CR
  • steverstever YooperlandPosts: 39,957
    Self selected surveys are problematic. JD Power gets names from DMVs - more random.

    A good exercise is to find a car that's been out a while and compare the JD Power long term reports (3 years) to the 90 day initial quality surveys.

    Money does change hands - the last time I got a JD Power survey out of the blue, a dollar bill was included. :)

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  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I'm going from memory here, but I believe Hyundai's 7th ranking is not only for reliability but rather their evaluation scores and reliability combined. (edit: yeah, per backy they're including resale and evaluation data).

    Either way, captain2 wrote:

    they still suffer from a 'Korean' car stigma that needs to be addressed and changed if something like the Genesis is ever going to make it in the lux arena

    It depends. The euro lux brands are generally not reliable. Hyundai passed them years ago. And they don't have to be #1 in reliability to make it in the lux arena, they merely have to be respectable, and they already are.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    you're right I didn't remember that 34 were ranked only the 7th (or 8th) place finish.
    Does avoid the issue though, where does the car buyer rank Hyundai - they are, after all, the ones signing the car notes. I never said that Hyundai was a Land Rover and at the bottom of the barrel, only that they still lag in this regard and that the brand perceptions lags further behind than that. Unfortunately for Hyundai perhaps, there remains a bunch of consumers out there that have memories like elephants.
    It is when a Hyundai product is bought because of perceived quality and not price or warranties (much like the Camcords are) that is when we will know that Hyundai has improved its reputations to any really significant degree.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    FWIW, TrueDelta is not using "subscribers". They don't publish any magazine and don't collect money from people who fill out their surveys in any way.

    I'm registered there, but it's definitely free. If you register, the benefit is you can see the results.

    What impressed me about them is that they collect partial VINs and require follow-up confirmations every quarter, so you don't end up with trolls sending in bad data and then vanishing.

    I get the CR survey in the mail and it's long and huge and I've never bothered to fill it out. I can see how their data is slightly skewed, though, they are surveying subscribers who have been hearing great things about Toyotas and Hondas for years, so I'm sure they have many more Toyota and Honda owners (proportionally). Perhaps even owners with skewed expectations from those brands.

    Example: you own a Odyssey and your transmission dies, but you might conclude it's rare and that's the only problem you've had. Your wife owns a Ford Focus and the sun visor is loose and suddenly it's "Fords are crap" and you think they all do that. Nit-picking might make the Focus' numbers appear worse than they really are. Also, it's a cheap fix, and doesn't affect getting you to your destination.

    TrueDelta was very different - they go out to forums like these and sort of do grass-roots marketing to owners of all the specific vehicles that they rank. That way they can target specific vehicles and get a lot of data quickly, and it's also why some 2009 models already have ratings. They're at least a year ahead of everyone else.

    I don't see how there would be the same potential bias (notice my careful wording).

    If they go to Clubsi, they find Honda fans, sure.

    But they'll find fans of Subaru on nasioc.

    As long as they do the same thing for all brands, there should be a fair sampling.

    If anything, TrueDelta's finding may be favorable for all brands, given the demographic targeted (on-line sites for specific makes).

    They also get a more web-savvy demographic, since it's on-line and not by mail.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    Money does change hands - the last time I got a JD Power survey out of the blue, a dollar bill was included.
    Boo!
    You know that's not the money I'm talking about - and to make matters even worse JDP (there are others) will further make a living doing commissioned 'studies' for specific manufacturers and/or industry groups - it's how they pay their own salaries. CR gets no money except from it own subscriptions and donations that can not be from interested parties. A key difference IMO

    PS It kinda like if you need a study that promotes the health benefits of smoking cigarettes have the American Tobacco Co pay for it!
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