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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    well, I have never been to court but its been my impression from most small claims court judges on TV, they wouldn't care to listen to a appraiser, they tend to go to the little KBB book for the value of the car! r u telling me judge judy is an idiot :confuse: ;)
  • steverstever Ex Yooper, just arrived in New MexicoPosts: 40,540
    LOL, you mean she isn't? I mean c'mon, she's on TV and everything.

    Ok, anyone shopping for a Genesis?

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • Smarty666,

    You have to realize that the Hyundai Sonata was a couple thousand less than a comparably equipped Accord five years ago. If you add that into the equation, I'd say Sonata's still not a bad choice.

    Now, I think the 2011 Sonata is projected to be one of the class leaders in resale price. Also a reputable source!

    http://finance.yahoo.com/news/2011-Hyundai-Sonata-GLS-Tops-prnews-2088789123.htm- l?x=0&.v=1
  • THIS IS MY DECREE:

    THERE IS AND WILL BE NO MORE ROOM FOR HYUNDAI IN THE LUXURY MARKET!!!

    However....

    Hyundai is offering luxury features for a lower price so that commoners, fanboys(like myself), outcasts, wealthy people(who keep themselves wealthy by not squandering their riches), and normal/reasonable people(who know they have inherent value outside of the type of car they drive) can enjoy them without breaking the bank for them.

    So we must not tell the self proclaimed "luxury" elitists about this secret. Just enjoy these nice features without the luxury title.

    We'll just have to choose humbler words for Hyundai... it fits their identity better anyhow. Accent could be called "deathtrap," Sonata could be called "bad 0-60 time for a family sedan," and the Genesis Coupe could be called "poor man's z" or "non-sports car" All the while, Hyundai, just keep making safe, reliable, fuel efficient, and rather nice looking vehicles with nice(but not luxurious) features.

    The GenCoupe drivers should always purposely lose in races to the "luxury" Infiniti G owners because G owners paid more for their cars and they deserve to feel better about their purchases because they paid upwards of ten grand more(even though the engine specs are very comparable). Genesis Coupe owners should not pretend to own a sports car because 300 horses and rear wheel drive doesn't equal sporty! Except the Infiniti is sporty and luxurious. What matters is that it's a Hyundai and Hyundai is always < Sports Car!

    Oh, btw, did I mention that I was a Hyundai fanboy! Didn't want you guys to mistaken me for a normal human being with a functioning brain and any sense dignity. I think Hyundai fans are a bit slow or uneducated.

    Ok... I'll stop now. Do you see how absurd it is??? Less than an eighth of the population in the world owns cars...(fact dated back a couple years) And here we are bickering about whether or not to allow Hyundai in the luxury car club because of the perceptions of a few! If you own a car, you're in the top 13% in terms of wealth in the world! A new car probably higher! Any car sold in America? Higher than that! We really need a healthy dose of perspective.

    And btw, although he liked Buick's, I wouldn't be caught dead calling my dad a "Buick fanboy." This kind of talk is not only disrespectful to loving parents, but to people that you've never even met in real life. Just because you're in the safety of your own computer screen doesn't make it right to call people fanboys. But luckily, it's so convenient that most of you won't ever have to meet any of us in real life.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,162
    Cadillac as an independent automaker predates Ford by one year - 1902 vs 1903. Oldsmobile was even older - dating to 1897. Cadillac was incorporated into General Motors which dates to 1908. Actually, the oldest automaker was Studebaker who built Conestoga wagons all the way back to 1852.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,713
    edited February 2010
    I was told H makes a tuned coupe, why can't it be bought? It's not up to me to discover this mystery product. There are other franken-cars I'd build first, if this has to be a DIY affair.

    Regarding history, for some it is a factor when choosing which luxury car to buy. It can build (or destroy) cachet. In the global market, I believe it is one aspect which makes beloved Lexus a lesser competitor. Go spend an hour wandering around a posh area of London, Paris, Berlin, Munich, Zurich, Geneva, etc...see how many you can spot compared to the competition.

    Is there room in the market for H to compete with the GS and M etc in the NA market? As sales figures tell, yes. As the market goes higher, the room becomes tighter.
  • lemkolemko Posts: 15,162
    My Uncle Howard was an early Honda owner. I remember when he bought an orange 1973 Civic. At that time, I thought Honda only made motorcycles and was surprised they built cars. It was strange seeing that tiny car with its little wheels next to my uncle's other car - a 1971 Oldsmobile Delta 88.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    you are right, the number I put is for the 2010 Sonata; unfortunately, KBB had not yet had any figures for the 2011 which obviously will have a higher resale value; I do agree, Hyundai is def a good buy, they have pretty good resale values and their reliability ratings have increased drastically in the last 10 years that they are approaching the top of the pack with the japanese!

    At this point, I don't think you could go wrong with a Hyundai purchase! :shades:
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    As the market goes higher, the room becomes tighter

    Today's market is only an approximation with the market of 1 year ago. The market is always in flux, and especially turbulent as of late.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,903
    Or did you get a snootful of stale Grey Poupon and forget?

    Now that's funny!!

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • acdiiacdii Posts: 753
    Many think KBB and NADA are the books dealers use to price out a trade in value, but the book they use is called the black book, and yes there really is a little black book for car prices. I used to work for a shop that sold cars on the side and we got a weekly book in that covered current prices, and the prices in that book were always far below KBB and NADA. When you get a trade in value off the KBB website, take 10% off, that is the more realistic trade value you will see for your car. Sucks, but it is how they work. There is a web site for the black book, but you cant look up prices on it, you have to subscribe to it.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 5,903
    Why do you need to degrade people who disagree with you by assigning emotions to them of anger and insecurity

    How about he is very disappointed in his used Mercedes (being used, it is not really a luxury car) that he paid way too much for and every time he sees a Genesis he is green with envy. That would be my guess.

    2013 LX 570 2010 LS 460 2002 Tacoma 4x4

  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,713
    edited February 2010
    I don't think that question was aimed at you, used Lexus-driving middle-American drone...

    Oh yeah, we're not supposed to get personal here :P

    I have no regrets in the world with my automotive purchases. Disappointed? Let's take my car and a Genesis V8 onto a track and see who wins. No reason to envy something I could have myself, if I had the desire to buy a few years worth of car payments. As it is now, I get a nice car and money left over. Win-win. Oh, and my car doesn't steal your soul like a Lexus :shades:

    And the "insecurity" comment was not about personal emotion...but about views of H itself, to explain the dubious "innovation" claims etc...making something bigger than it is.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Posts: 11,722
    Actually Cadillac dates back to 1901 but was then known as the Henry Ford Company until Ford was forced out in 1902.

    The sign said "No shoes, no shirt, no service", it didn't say anything about no pants.

  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    thanxs for the info and tip acdii!! :D
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    Posting positive opinions of Hyundai is a sign of insecurity, right? However, making Hyundai less than it is, is... what exactly? Fear?
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    edited February 2010
    Well, since you said that the luxury brands top their mainstream counterpart brands in resale value, I guess what I would like to see is some numbers on a brand level--not picking single vehicles from a specific model year from each brand. I expect those brand-level numbers exist, but I haven't been able to find them. Maybe they aren't accessible to the general public?

    But anyway, I took your suggestion and checked out some used car prices--not on the lots, that is pretty hard to do, but via Internet. Here's one example I found of cars from the same year and similar mileage:

    2007 Infiniti M45, 38k miles, at my local Infiniti dealer: $26,995 asking price; started new at $49,100 MSRP (this one may have options, but let's not count them as you didn't count them in your analysis); retained value 55%.

    2007 Nissan Altima 2.5S AT, 35k miles, at my local Nissan dealer: $16,995 asking price; started new at $20,300 (w/o options); retained value 84%.

    Looks like Infiniti loses out to its mainstream partner, big-time. How about Honda?

    2007 Acura RL with Tech Package, 59k miles, at my local Acura dealer: $25,988 asking price; new MSRP was $49,400; retained value 53%.

    2007 Honda Accord EX-L V6, 58k miles, at my local Honda dealer: $17,995 asking price; new MSRP was $27,500; retained value 65%.

    Closer, but no cigar.

    How about one more?

    2007 Lexus LS 460, 41k miles, Certified car, at my local Lexus dealer, $45,497 asking price; new MSRP was $61,000; retained value 75%.

    2007 Toyota Camry SE V6, 37k miles, Certified car, at my local Toyota dealer, $21,490 asking price; new MSRP was $24,315; retained value 88%.

    Luxury brands are 0 for 3 vs. their mainstream counterparts.

    But, here's one case where the luxury variant is doing quite well against its mainstream cousin...

    2009 Hyundai Genesis 3.8 Premium Plus pkg, 6500 miles, at my local Hyundai dealer, $29,498 asking price, $36,050 MSRP, retained value 82%.

    2009 Hyundai Sonata Limited V6, 7200 miles, at my local Hyundai dealer, $19,488 asking price, new MSRP was $27,270, retained value 71%.

    So yes, it IS possible for "luxury" to have a higher resale value than its more pedestrian partner. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    :D

    But.. u uzed some big werds in yer post. Kin u pleeze uze smallr werds in the footcher, I am just a fanboy an thoze big werds r real hard fir me to reed. Thanks u!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    It's not up to me to discover this mystery product.

    I provided the URL, for golly sakes--what more do you want, maybe an engraved invitation for a test drive? ;)

    You don't suppose the reason the luxury car buyers in Europe stick to their European luxury brands rather than trying something like Lexus is because... they are stuck-up snobs who could not fathom that a non-European brand could be as good or better than their beloved European brand? Nah, couldn't happen. :shades:
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2010
    one of the big flaws in your examples and numbers, and I pointed this out in my other posts; you use apples and orange model comparisons! your big first mistake is comparing tech/nav and sport package models with mainstream counterparts that don't have any of those things; I'm not surprised those luxury models had lower resale values because they have nav systems, one of biggest things to depreciate the cars and like I said if you want to get a car that holds its value you never get the factory nav system

    the second problem with your anaylsis is you compare a sport V8 model to a 4 cylinder; the V8 and sport pack is going to severely depreciate a car compared to a 4 cylinder since more people will be inclined to buy a 4 cylinder than a 8 which guzzles gas, costs more to maintain and more expensive to replace if need be

    next time try again, using better apples to apples comparisons, such as same engine to same engine cylinder, no nav,tech, or sports packages like I did in my examples!

    you know, I don't mind people liking a brand, but your are in such a slobbering love feast with Hyundai that if anyone mentions another brand automatically its not as good, or isn't a good buy or hold its value like almighty Hyundai!
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    edited February 2010
    Do you know how hard it is to find some of these cars as used cars, and with the same mileage and options to boot? Only two of the cars I listed, out of eight, had any options that I could see: the RL and the Genesis. There were few 2007 RLs to choose from in my area, and few Genesis sedans. So how do you explain the numbers for all the cars that did NOT have options? Anyway, the Genesis came out ahead of the no-options Sonata Limited V6, so that should make you happy.

    But how can you even talk about comparing "same engine to same engine cylinder" when one of the hallmarks of the luxury sedan class is V8 engines? :surprise: And most cars from the "mainstream" brands are sold with 4-cylinder engines?? Talk about strange comparisons! No wonder you think luxury brands have better resale value! You want to strip them down (unlike how they are usually purchased) and load up the mainstream models to the max, with engines that aren't even available in them! :confuse:

    As for comparing the V8 M45 to the Altima 2.5S, ok, here ya go...

    2007 Nissan Altima 3.5SE, 31k miles, $17,277 asking price, $24,000 MSRP, retained value 72%.

    Sorry, Infiniti still loses out to its mainstream counterpart. And now all of the luxury vs. mainstream comparisons were with V6s for the mainstream cars--which are the biggest engines offered for those cars.

    "Slobbering love fest with Hyundai"? Yes, indeed, someone who disagrees with you could only be in a slobbering love-fest, with no reason to their opinion. Ya you betcha there. Here's a clue: look at my profile. What do you see? How many Hyundais have I owned vs. other brands? I like a LOT of car models, from several brands. I think you have mistaken me for avowed fanboy captain2.
  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    edited February 2010
    you still don't get it, your comparing a V8 nav, tech,sport package loaded car to a V6 which doesn't have nav; don't you undertsand all that stuff in the Infiniti lowers its residual value considerably :confuse: your still comparing apples to oranges

    you want to get specific here you go, I got some much better apple to apple comparisons to prove your wrong!

    2007 Acura Base TL(no nav) certified by my local Acura dealer and is asking for $25,491 and had a original msrp of $33,625! - after 3 years, the car depreciated by 24.2% thus it held 75.8% of its original value

    2007 Honda Accord EX-L V6 (no nav) certified by my local Honda dealer is asking for $18,995 and had a original msrp of $27,400 - after 3 years, the car depreciated by 30.7% thus it held 69.3% of original value

    2007 Infiniti G37X (no nav, tech, or sport packages) certified by my local Infiniti dealer is asking $21,899 and had a original msrp of $33,950 - after 3 years, the car depreciated 35.5% thus it held 64.5% of its original value

    2007 Nissan Altima 3.5SL (no nav or sport packages) certified by my local Nissan dealer is asking $15,995 and had a original msrp of $28,500 - after 3 years, the car depreciated 44.9% thus it held 56.1% of its original value!

    looks like luxury division 2, mainstream 0; looks like Honda and Nissan lost out to Acura and Infiniti ;) :P

    these are not stripped down cars luxury cars; just goes to show me you know nothing about luxury cars or haven't even had one :P no wonder you think Hyundai is better than all the established luxury divisions!, you have no idea what your talking about; your trying to come up with whaky comparison choices in order to try and make yourself think your right; sorry just proved you wrong!

    I'm tired of this back and forth; there is more to life then trying to prove someone wrong! let just leave it that, and I think you'll agree, the Japanese and Korean vehicles hold their values the best against their German and American counterparts! so you can't go wrong financially buying Korean or Japanese! :shades:
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,699
    edited February 2010
    image

    PRESS RELEASE

    HYUNDAI TO PRESENT EIGHT WORLD DEBUTS AT GENEVA

    Hyundai has today revealed the first photo of the all-new concept car i-flow (HED-7), ahead of its international debut at the Geneva Motor Show next week. The i-flow, which advances the 'fluidic sculpture' form language of Hyundai, will be joined on stage by other newcomers, including the facelifted i30 ? to be launched as i30U ? and a number of new, production-ready derivatives with CO2 emissions below 100g/km.

    Previewing a future D-segment contender from Hyundai, i-flow boasts sleek, elegant lines which not only create a bionic, futuristic shape, but also contribute to exceptional aerodynamics. The drag coefficient of 0.25Cd helps to reduce the car's CO2 output to just 85g/km and fuel consumption to only 3l/100km.

    Hyundai's first diesel-electric hybrid powertrain is a key factor in delivering such an environmentally-conscious return. The exciting new U2 1,7-liter engine is augmented by two-stage turbocharging and Hyundai's Lithium Ion-Polymer battery, to give a very efficient and advanced combination, partnered with a six-speed, dual-clutch transmission.

    The interior of i-flow redefines the perception of space in a sedan bodystyle, and sees the application of next-generation materials and technologies developed in cooperation with leading chemical company BASF. Fundamental elements, such as the seats and center console, have been crafted in collaboration with BASF for minimal weight and volume. The cockpit's main interface centers around an expansive, contoured screen, which recognizes not only touch but also gestural inputs along its fascia-wide display.

    The glossy 'Liquid Metal' finish ? developed by BASF Coatings ? adds to the visual impact of i-flow's exterior. Special-effect pigments in this eco-friendly waterborne coating give the surface a polished metal appearance, and highlight the sculptural character of the car.

    Entering mass production in March this year, the i30U takes over from the well-established i30, and incorporates a wide range of improvements in design, specification and competitiveness, as well as even cleaner powertrains. To complete the upgrade, i30U comes with the Hyundai 'Triple5' package, consisting of an enhanced five-year, bumper-to-bumper unlimited warranty, five years' roadside assistance, and an annual vehicle seasonal health check for five years. The package reflects the quality and reliability of the Europe-built i30 family and gives added peace of mind to consumers.

    At the Show Hyundai will also reveal the latest additions to its growing collection of eco-focused Blue DriveTM innovations. Five new production vehicles have resulted from the company's leading-edge program: the i10 blue, i20 blue, i30 blue, i30cw blue, and ix35 blue. The new arrivals will drive the company towards its goal of global leadership in environmentally-sensitive automotive technologies.

    Through innovations such as a stop-start system, low-rolling-resistance tyres and modified aerodynamics, the first four of these cars have CO2 emissions below 100g/km. The ix35 blue, meanwhile, boasts an impressive 135g/km ?a benchmark figure for a C-segment SUV. These improvements are achieved without compromising performance, reliability or driver satisfaction, making all Blue DriveTM models a realistic solution for motorists.

    Looking one step beyond the blue-badged models, the ix35 FCEV moves Hyundai closer to the commercialization of hydrogen fuel cell electric vehicles. Debuting at Geneva, it features several important innovations over the previous-generation Tucson FCEV, and will lead to production volume of Hyundai FCEVs in the thousands by 2012. Among the developments implemented on ix35 FCEV are steps to reduce the cost and complexity of fuel-cell manufacturing and new approaches which simplify final assembly.

    More information about Hyundai's star cars and the latest corporate news will be made available on the stand, where media can request press kits. The company's press conference will take place


    Get this, car nuts.

    The i-Flow is a D-segment sedan meant to go up against cars like the Ford Mondeo in Europe. Under the hood, the i-Flow has Hyundai's first diesel hybrid powertrain including a new 1.7-liter inline-four. The diesel has dual stage turbocharging and is paired up with Hyundai's Blue-drive system using a new six-speed dual clutch gearbox. Like the upcoming Sonata hybrid, the i-Flow uses a lithium polymer battery pack. With its drag coefficient of 0.25, the i-Flow is claimed to achieve 78.4 miles per gallon (U.S.) and CO2 emissions of just 85 grams/kilometer.

    Now, hear this out, though. On one website someone said that they don't think the U.S. will get this car because we're already getting the new Sonata, without a diesel engine, yes. This i-flow is supposed to replace the Azera in Hyundai's lineup, not the Sonata. So, in other words, we stand a chance of getting this car in America. If the Fed's will approve a diesel hybrid, that is. :)

    Stay tuned. 78 mpg? Is that in litres or something? No way! 78 mpg? :confuse:

    I don't care what people want to call this car, a luxury car or a "family" sports car. I now have added it to my "futures" list of possibilities. Build it and I will purchase, Hyundai. But it must come to the U.S. or the whole deal is off. :sick:

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    that is pretty sweet looking!!! :surprise:
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    edited February 2010
    ...don't you undertsand all that stuff in the Infiniti lowers its residual value considerably

    Yes, I do and that is exactly my point. Thank you for reiterating it for me.

    More power, more features... that's what luxury cars offer. I can't help it if Infiniti or other luxury brands make lots of features standard. I quoted the base MSRPs for all cars except the two (RL and Genesis) with options.

    Anyway, my sample Altima 3.5SL beats your sample G37X. So what do all these individual samples prove? Absolutely zilch. That is why I asked if you had any numbers for brand resale value. That was after all your original assertion--that luxury brands have higher resale values than their mainstream counterparts. Do you understand now it is impossible to prove that assertion with a few samples?

    these are not stripped down cars luxury cars

    Actually, the samples you provided are exactly that.

    Maybe you know more about luxury cars than I do (although yes I have owned one). But I think I know more about logical reasoning than you do.

    you have no idea what your talking about

    Obviously, since it appears anyone who doesn't agree with you doesn't know what he's talking about (and slobbers a lot to boot).

    your trying to come up with whaky comparison choices in order to try and make yourself think your right


    Actually, you were the one who came up with the whacky comparisons, of a few individual car models, which were totally inadequate to prove your original premise re brand resale value. Then you suggested I check out some used-car prices and compare them to MSRPs. So I did. And now you're complaining because I did exactly what you suggested I do.

    Yep, yep yep yep yep...
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,699
    edited February 2010
    because Hyundai is reeling me on in with that i-flow front end. I'm considering purchasing my first Hyundai if this pup comes to U.S. shores. Don't get hyperactive on me, though. I do this every few weeks and eventually settle for a good, crisp donut and hot cup of coffee and continue waiting for Seattle to get another NBA franchise.

    image

    I don't know what does it but the first time I saw this pup I bonded wid it. :shades:

    The first car nut that can tell us what those little wings are up by the sides of the windshield gets tonight's booby award, too. :surprise:

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • I hope this car remains a concept... I mean the miles/gallon is very impressive but the front is fugly! I mean, I'm a "fanboy" but the front needs to go.

    The rest of the car is nice! The fluidic sculpture really works for this car though!

    Backy! u r so phunny! i thinck ur way of speakin will katch awn wit deh uthers. itz gon b a thang sewn I thinck. dat is fer us fanboi's
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,717
    I expect the front end and the rest of the concept would be toned down for production, as is typical with concepts. Also, Hyundai has to add those BMW and MB (for example) styling cues to the car before it goes into production, since we know it's their practice to steal styling cues from other makes--given they have no design theme of their own.

    ;)
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,713
    Positive opinions and exaggerated assertations are not the same thing.

    Who is making Hyundai less than it is? I don't see the cars really being bashed here.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,713
    I must have missed it...which URL?

    Yes, an entire continent is just snobs. That's it. It couldn't have anything to do with driving being such an expensive activity, with many more hoops to navigate from day one, that those who drive might simply want something more engaging than a swoopy-L iso-tank?
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