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Is There Room in the Luxury Market for Hyundai?

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Comments

  • smarty666smarty666 Posts: 1,503
    I agree with you backy, I'm in no way brand conscious and I have no brand loyalty. I found out a long time ago, there is no such thing as brand loyalty. When it comes down to it, when I went back to the same dealer I bought or leased from they gave me worse treatment and prices then dealerships I never had been to, let alone lease or bought from before.

    It doesn't matter what dealership or brand you have. When you go back in to get another vehicle your just another customer to them who they want to make the most money on it doesn't matter if you have a vehicle from them, if you made all your payments, etc.

    That is why I have no problem cross shopping brands when I get vehicles. I will go with who ever's product I like (both inside/outside) but more importantly how well they treat me and how good a deal I can work out with them.
  • dean3927dean3927 Posts: 80
    edited April 2010
    Comparison: 2011 Mustang V-6 vs 2010 Genesis Coupe 3.8 vs 2010 Camaro RS vs 2010 Challenger SE

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/coupes/1004_2011_mustang_v6_vs_2010_genesis_- coupe_3_8_vs_2010_camaro_rs_vs_2010_challenger_se/index.html

    ***Watch the entertaining 6-min. video also***
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    But, here's the key point: NOT ALL CAR BUYERS ARE BRAND-CONSCIOUS]
    and here the KEY POINT: more are brand conscious than aren't - and do you really want to know why we know that???
    Because otherwise brands like Hyundai would dominate car sales instead of being a relatively minor player. It is largely because of this (currently) poor brand perception that Hyundai will have difficulty in the luxury market, and that's pretty much regardless of how good any car they might produce is.
  • tenpin288tenpin288 Posts: 804
    edited April 2010
    more are brand conscious than aren't

    I would say it is more "brand-repetitive" and "brand change-adverse". If they were really "brand-conscious" they would investigate each brand more in depth, be more aware what each brand's advantage/disadvantages are and then the "poor brand reception" you ascribe to Hyundai would no longer exist, at least we hope in your mind. ;)
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    would say it is more "brand-repetitive" and "brand change-adverse
    that too - thinking back to my Dad who was 'a Buick' guy for years and years - then he bought his first Toyota (a 72 Corona) and it's quality was far superior to his 68 Skylark. He never bought another Buick.
    Getting folks to change those perceptions and their habits is a large part of Hyundai's work in progress - and not that they aren't doing a much better job at it, particularily lately - but pretending that a brand resistance doesn't still exist (as some on this forum would) is wishful thinking and shows a further lack of understanding of the importance of branding.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    I'm in no way brand conscious and I have no brand loyalty
    you are not unique and would further, IMO, be the 'typical' Hyundai customer. But be aware though, that may change - Hyundai should, sooner or later, get more customers that buy their products BECAUSE of the brand, and not necessarily because they are cheaper (or more value, if you prefer) .
    It is when that happens that Hyundai will find it easier to establish some sort of luxury brand, and make actual luxury cars.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    So you are saying that to get some "room" in the luxury market, a majority of buyers must be non-brand-conscious? That's a really big room. I'll bet Hyundai will be very happy with a smaller living space in the luxury market, in the near term.

    Also, if you add up all the non-leading brands i.e. non-J3 and luxury brands, such as Hyundai, Kia, Mitsubishi, most GM brands, Ford/Mercury, Chrysler/Dodge, Subaru, etc., that's a lot of owners. Plus those owners of the J3 and luxury brands who are open-minded enough to consider other options. And we know those people exist, e.g. the 40% of trades for the Genesis sedan from luxury brands that Hyundai's VP mentioned.

    As for brand perception... selling 19,000 of one model, in one month, and selling over 47,000 total vehicles in one month doesn't seem to me to reflect a poor brand perception.
  • captain2captain2 Posts: 3,971
    So you are saying that to get some "room" in the luxury market, a majority of buyers must be non-brand-conscious?
    No not really, all I'm saying is that Hyundai can't be Hyundai, and nor can Hyundai sell all ends of the market at the same time - AS HYUNDAI. THIS NOT CRITICISM of Hyundai it is a condition of what the luxuy market is - and isn't. Furthermore, all those brands you mention in this post - would not find any 'room' either - all for pretty much the same reasons.
    And I have no doubt that between Toyota's problems and the fact that the Sonata is brand new that Hyundai is quite well selling them right now. Furthermore, since those sales are improving so must the brand perceptions. There is increasingly less luggage attached to the Hyundai name - no doubt. Is it enough right now to support a luxury brand? Not yet, IMO
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    ... nor can Hyundai sell all ends of the market at the same time - AS HYUNDAI

    You are forgetting one little thing... Hyundai is doing this RIGHT NOW. Hard to go against reality, isn't it? :surprise:

    Yes, your hypothesis was very interesting a couple of years ago, before the Genesis showed up, and no one knew what would happen. Now, however, there is this little thing called "reality" getting in the way of your hypothesis.
  • iluvmysephia1iluvmysephia1 Posts: 5,699
    like another subject very near and dear to my heart, people don't change their mind about strongly-held beliefs very well. Apparently the Captain is one if "those."

    I would leave well enough alone with this subject. Batton down the hatches for the real war that is soon to come upon us all.

    And that is who is the best carmaker, Mitsubishi or Suzuki?

    2008 Mitsubishi Lancer GTS

  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,707
    Hyundai sells in all ends of the market right now? That's news to me :shades:
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    OK, not in the over-$50k class. Wait a few months. The horse ain't goin' nowhere, anyway. ;)
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,707
    In my eyes, there are many distinct market groups in the over-50K segment.
  • toyetoye Posts: 351
    yeah,,,,,only M and B
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,707
    Not quite...but it is silly to claim that 50K+ is one borderless segment from there upwards.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    It all depends on your classification scheme. If you want to segment the market in small slices, then no one automaker covers the entire spectrum of the market. So not a big deal that Hyundai does not do that, is it?
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,707
    I can't imagine any credible voice claiming that the market ends at 50K and up with no further divisions.

    Yes, it is no big deal that H doesn't do everything, just amusing if someone claims H actually does do everything ;)
  • toyetoye Posts: 351
    As far as type of vehicles produced H doesn't do pickups or convertibles.
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    Well, Edmunds.com claims the market classification ends at $85k and up, even though there's many vehicles that cost 3x or more, even over $1 million. So I guess Edmunds isn't credible either, in your eyes.

    And btw, no one claimed that Hyundai "does everything." But based on how one segments the market, they do cover the entire market price-wise. For example, since the Equus 5.0 sells for over $85k in the ROK, then in Edmunds' eyes at least, Hyundai does cover the entire market spectrum, price-wise. I know you will find that amusing. ;)
  • backybacky Twin CitiesPosts: 18,715
    edited April 2010
    Actually, Hyundai does do pickups... just not in the USA.

    As for convertibles, that is such a small slice of the market, I can understand why Hyundai has said "no" to the idea, e.g. a Genesis coupe convertible. Look at Hyundai's main competitors, the J3. Only one of them offers a convertible in the USA--the 370Z. Toyota and Honda used to offer convertibles here, but no more. Must have realized it wasn't worth the effort and cost.
  • fintailfintail Posts: 33,707
    Or high performance tuned cars or super/sports cars or true world class luxobarges...

    Convertibles and pickups can be divided into several categories as well.
  • j2jj2j Posts: 147
    "I would qualify that to say that marketing of the brand reputation is the real story."

    - Very true.

    By superior marketing, Rolex was able to surpass Omega and hence, command significantly higher prices (a no. of decades ago, the Rolex Submariner and Omega Seamaster were pretty close in price).
  • j2jj2j Posts: 147
    "Just another reason why the solid reliability record of the Genesis sedan to date is all the more impressive.
    'to date' is the key phrase there - reminder that Hyundai's first effort at going upscale, the Azera, did much worse in its second year than its first."

    - The 2nd year was a blip - all the other years have been above average in CR's reliability ratings.
  • j2jj2j Posts: 147
    "Just like the Avalon, the Maxima, the Taurus etc. it is really what a 'flagship' of a mass market brand should be. The Genesis IMO to me oversteps what the carbuyer is willing to accept from a mfgr called Hyundai. Call it something else, and sell it somewhere else, we might have a different story.

    Unfortunately now though I see the Azera as an abandoned child, as Hyundai endeavors to make an impact in a market that they plainly don't belong - at least not the way they are attempting to do it."


    - And yet the sales of the Genesis sedan over the past year and a half have outsold the Lexus GS and Infiniti M by a 2 to 1 margin.

    Even the new M's sale's figure is about where the Genesis sedan is selling on a monthly basis.

    As for the Azera, it was a nice effort by Hyundai but not as competitive in its segment (large, upscale FWD sedan) as the Avalon and the new Taurus and Maxima.

    Plus, Hyundai put nothing into marketing the Azera on television.

    The next-gen Azera should do for Hyundai in the large, upscale FWD sedan segment what the new Sonata is currently doing for Hyundai in the mainstream mid-size sedan segment.
  • j2jj2j Posts: 147
    "that number was discussed here on this forum for months - something like a paltry 25%? And that number a claim by a Hyundai exec who conveniently gets to define what he thinks luxury cars are and are not"

    Uhh, that figure was 40%, not 25% - and the Hyundai exec was referring to brands like BMW, Infiniti, etc. - and that 40% conquest rate is probably very similar for models like the CTS, ES, IS and G37 (I guess they aren't "luxury" either).

    "and yes BTW the Genesis is NOT a luxury car in my opinion - and it has little to do with the car itself and EVERYTHING to do with brand reputations and perceptions."

    So the Toyota Century, the flagship of the Toyota.Lexus fleet, isn't a luxury auto since it's branded a Toyota?

    And yet the Acura CSX, basically a rebadged JDM Civic, is b/c of the badge? lol
  • j2jj2j Posts: 147
    Again, you are confusing "luxury vehicle" with "luxury brand"
    no I'm not - and this I have been very consistent on - a luxury vehicle MUST have a luxury brand AND a luxury vehicle is more than just a assembly of specs and other bling.

    On that basis, the Toyota Celsior (aka the Lexus LS) was not a luxury vehicle despite the only difference being the badge, and I guess members of the Japanese royal family do not ride in a, "luxury" vehicle due to the Century being a Toyota.

    That means the Nissan Cima, which used to sold in the US as the Q45, was not a luxury vehicle as well; not to mention the Nissan President which is even higher up on the Nissan hierarchy.

    Luxury vehicle and luxury brand do not always correlate - plenty of people would say the Mercedes A and B Classes, much less the C Class, are not luxury vehicles despite the Mercedes star emblem on the hood.

    None other than Ferdinand Piëch regarded the VW Phaeton to be a luxury vehicle (I'd say his opinion holds much more sway than yours).

    Under Piëch's command, the Phaeton was engineered to be better than the A8, w/ the Phaeton sharing the same platform w/ the Bentley Continental GT and Bentley Continental Flying Spur (something that the A8 does not).

    To say that the Phaeton isn't a luxury vehicle while the A6, much less the A4 and A1 are, is quite ludicrous.
  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    I am very happy that you obviously have a high opinion of Hyundai and its products, but sales statistics would indicate you are in the minority

    That's my whole point: WHY are Hyundai sales so low? The answer is, for no good reason.

    Don't be offended by the word "ignorance". Look it up, it simply means "Lacking information or knowledge", and is not derogatory.
  • steverstever Ex Yooper, en route to New MexicoPosts: 40,506
    edited April 2010
    In the context of a forum, tossing "ignorant" around is abusive. Especially so since you can't read the body language of the poster. Words often have more than one pure dictionary meaning and you know that that's a trigger word. People see that and entirely miss whatever point you were trying to make.

    Shall we get back to Hyundais please? (and it seems like being in the minority would be a luxury characteristic - otherwise you're talking about a mass market commodity item).

    Moderator
    Need help navigating? stever@edmunds.com - or send a private message by clicking on my name.

  • bobadbobad Posts: 1,587
    edited April 2010
    The next-gen Azera should do for Hyundai in the large, upscale FWD sedan segment what the new Sonata is currently doing for Hyundai in the mainstream mid-size sedan segment

    I think you're right.

    When Hyundai announced the new Sonata would be 4cyl only, it left a hole in their lineup. The most logical way to fill it is with the new Azera. I think the price will overlap Sonata and Genesis sedan slightly, and it probably won't offer a 4cyl. I'm guessing it will compete with Avalon and even V6 Camry and Accord.
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